A question for the unionists

[DrAlex]

Quoting DrAlex from 08:22, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Lid from 00:51, 28th Nov 2006
And remember that Britain would give independence to Scotland, not concede it.

Which raises the interesting point, if the SNP really did win big at the Scottish Elections, how would they go about securing independence?

I notice no one has answered my question.

[hr]

"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
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[exnihilo]

Quoting Odysseus from 17:38, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting exnihilo from 17:35, 28th Nov 2006
But we would, presumably have to turn in our existing passports and be issued - or reapply for - new ones?

This is just one issue - I don't think Scotland could just be voted into being independent overnight - We'd need to set a deadline and have people working out these (relatively minor) problems.

I wasn't suggesting my vote would hang on the answer, I was merely asking. I can ask a few hundred more similar questions - to which I expect I'd get the same answer that it's all details which can be worked out after independence. THAT affects my vote.

[Iain]

Exnihilo - as an Irish passport holder I may live/work/travel freely in the UK. So it will be under Scottish Independence. UK passport holders would be free to be here, just that those in Scotland may apply for a Scottish passport.

Dr.Alex - upon securing what will presumably be a coalition agreement in the Scottish parliament, we must get backing from the Scottish parliament for a bill to hold a consultative referendum. If we get the Lib Dems to agree to this most democratic suggestion; the referendum is held. The draft text is probably somewhere on the net.

If the referendum is a yes vote (perhaps a 55% of the vote limitation is included) then we immediately begin negotiations on a settlement/asset division with Westminster. Negotiation on armed forces etc would take place. I recall hearing this could take some 6-18months. During this time, the Scottish Parliament will carry out its usual business on devolved matters. Westminster would not stop Scotland's independence if the vote is for it.

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Odysseus]

Quoting exnihilo from 17:50, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Odysseus from 17:38, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting exnihilo from 17:35, 28th Nov 2006
But we would, presumably have to turn in our existing passports and be issued - or reapply for - new ones?

This is just one issue - I don't think Scotland could just be voted into being independent overnight - We'd need to set a deadline and have people working out these (relatively minor) problems.

I wasn't suggesting my vote would hang on the answer, I was merely asking. I can ask a few hundred more similar questions - to which I expect I'd get the same answer that it's all details which can be worked out after independence. THAT affects my vote.

They could also be worked out before we were granted independence, but no doubt the SNP would be criticised if they made passport reform a main part of their agenda. In any case, surely the possibility of ID cards 'to prevent terrorism' (LOL) is a concern IF we stay in the UK? No doubt everyone will have their own concerns about independence, but to say we *couldn't* do it, or that we'd suddenly become a backwater (as well as being the sickman of Europe as it is) would be foolhardy.

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Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Odysseus]

Quoting DrAlex from 17:45, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting DrAlex from 08:22, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting Lid from 00:51, 28th Nov 2006
And remember that Britain would give independence to Scotland, not concede it.

Which raises the interesting point, if the SNP really did win big at the Scottish Elections, how would they go about securing independence?

I notice no one has answered my question.

[hr]

I'd assume they'd call for a referendum for the Scottish general public. Then we'd get the chance to decide for ourselves if we want to be in the United Kingdom. Wouldn't it be funny if, in this climate of 'democracy and freedom' the British government tried blocking independence? It wouldn't be the first time the British government has shown staggering hypocrisy.

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

Just to chuck my two pence in - I think Scotland currently has a very sweet deal with regards to Europe - devolution allows them a bit more leeway in picking and choosing which EU legislation to apply (arguments that charging people from South of the border different university fees was discriminatory on grounds of country of origin were brushed aside by the Scottish Executive, who tell us they can freely discriminate within a member state).

Of course there are the economic arguments - you're weighing the current situation, where you get more cash flowing North than South - against a possibility of economic growth. And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you wouldn't get those waters back if you split off from the rest of the UK...

[hr]

Mmmmmmm, cake.
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[exnihilo]

I may be being very thick, Iain, but what does your having an irish passport have to do with it? If you dissolve the Union and the United Kingdom ceases to exist then my passport becomes invalid. So I would need a Scottish one - I'm not suggesting I wouldn't be able to travel using it once secured, just that I WOULD need to get it.

On the referendum, I've asked before and I'm curious - who gets the vote? Everyone in Scotland at the time who is an EU citizen? Only those who were born in Scotland? Only those whose parents and grandparents were? What about the millions of Scots spread around the world for work etc - do they get to?

[Iain]

With passports, exnihilo, you sound like you are taking the "absolute" view. The SNP and Westminster would not be so crazy as to make passports void. A current UK passport would surely be good to the end of its term.

My comment on the Irish system was maybe my mis-interpretation of your question initially; but my point stands that you will be fine to live/work/play in Scotland with a current or future UK passport. The UK will not cease to exist per se, it would presumably be redefined as England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

Who can vote in the referendum? Those presently on the register for the Scottish parliamentary elections would be simplest, however I gather those living in Scotland but temporarily abroad (e.g. year abroad students) cannot vote in the Scottish elections? Something needs done on that front.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[exnihilo]

So I would be a Scot, living in Scotland but with a passport issued by a "foreign" nation?

Sorry to harp on this minor detail, but I'm fascinated by it.

[Colin]

Quoting exnihilo from 19:09, 28th Nov 2006
So I would be a Scot, living in Scotland but with a passport issued by a "foreign" nation?

Sorry to harp on this minor detail, but I'm fascinated by it.

It fascinates me too, as a Scot living abroad. I would rather not find myself in the situation where I am officially without a country. Getting a visa here took long enough as it was.

[Lid]

Just out of interest, as the UK is a member of Europe, if Scotland split from the UK, which would still exist in the sense of the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, would this mean that Scotland had to re-apply for EU membership? I've heard nothing to say they would definitely be allowed to remain.

Furthermore, the war has been capitalised on quite tremendously. The war is unpopular with the majority of the UK. However, in Scotland, it is a reason for independence. Furthermore, the advice was tremendously good, the best advice we could glean, it wasn't ill-advised, it was ill-planned. Using the war in Iraq to try and demonstrate freedom of foreign policy is to say the least, opportunistic.

To use every policy of the UK government that is unpopular in the entire UK (look at ID cards) is an argument for replacement of government as a whole, not an argument for independence. I'd much rather take the stance of 'The UK's going down the pan, loads of stuff we don't agree with, let's change it' rather than 'The UK's going down the pan, loads of stuff we don't agree with, let's get out'.

[hr]

We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires

[ascii]

Quoting Colin from 16:18, 28th Nov 2006

Quoting ascii from 13:44, 28th Nov 2006

The queen is head of state of New Zealand, Australia and many more independent countries, it's silly to suggest keeping the monarchy renders independence pointless.

As for passports, do you need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK, or from Portugal to Spain to France to Germany to Switzerland? No. So why would there need to be passport checks on the Scottish border? To stop the smuggling of haggis and whisky?

So you suggest that Scots would no longer have passports. Fine. All planning on staying at home forever? As a Scot currently living abroad (Chile, to be precise) on a UK passport, I do rather think that passports would be required. I hope Scotland would build an embassy here for me.

The dealing with the rest of the world is something that the nationalist argument over looks. It is so obsessed with being away from England that it forgets that it is through being part of the UK that we interact with the rest of the world. And being part of one of the world's major powers is a major advantage in this.

Also, a side issue. I am currently employed at a major scientific institute, which the UK pays a set amount of its science budget to be a member of. This allows the Scottish universities, including St Andrews, access to world class facilities. Does nationalist accounting include Scotland continuing to pay its share of such international bills, which currently come from the UK pot of money and not from the Scottish budget? Science funding is only one example of such things.

Reading beyond to the end of this thread, I see that Colin realises that I wasn't suggesting a passport free Scotland. Identity card free perhaps.

I think that nationalists do realise that we currently interact with the world through the UK. They think that it would be better to have our own voice, even though it would be smaller. They look forward to joining the UN and the EU (although perhaps not NATO) as full members, not needing to lobby ministers at Westminster to take Scotland's needs into account.

As examples of how Scotland might behave differently on the international stage, I suggest the Iraq war, replacing trident and immigration policy.

Concerning science funding, I have not seen any nationalist proposals to decrease university funding that would stop Scotland paying its share post independence, although perhaps that's a valid fear.

This year I have an EPSRC maintenance grant to study at Bath, that may have been harder/impossible to get if Scotland and England were separate.

[Al]

Quoting Lid from 19:25, 28th Nov 2006
Just out of interest, as the UK is a member of Europe, if Scotland split from the UK, which would still exist in the sense of the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, would this mean that Scotland had to re-apply for EU membership?

At best, it would be a United Kingdom of England and a bit held over from a former kingdom that we call Northern Ireland. Wales is legally part of England and has been since the Act of Union passed in the 1530s during the reign of Henry VIII. Northern Ireland is not - and never has been - a kingdom. That leaves the UK being the union between Scotland and England. I am not sure how - following Scottish independence - there would be a United Kingdom. Therefore, it could be argued that both countries would have to re-apply. Or neither.

[Iain]

Quoting exnihilo from 19:09, 28th Nov 2006
So I would be a Scot, living in Scotland but with a passport issued by a "foreign" nation?

Sorry to harp on this minor detail, but I'm fascinated by it.

I am already a Scot, living in the UK/Scotland, with a passport issued by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. It's not so much a minor detail but a complete insignificance - it happens already!

Edit: Lid, the SNP seek assurance from the EU at present and all indications are that the remaining UK and Scotland will automatically be EU member states.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Colin]

Quoting Iain from 18:12, 28th Nov 2006
If the referendum is a yes vote (perhaps a 55% of the vote limitation is included) then we immediately begin negotiations on a settlement/asset division with Westminster. Negotiation on armed forces etc would take place. I recall hearing this could take some 6-18months. During this time, the Scottish Parliament will carry out its usual business on devolved matters. Westminster would not stop Scotland's independence if the vote is for it.

Herein lies the rub. During this time the Scottish Parliament is led by the SNP (since they won the election). They have achieved their goal of independence (at least as a work in progress). Now what do they do? What are their actual policies for running the country beyond independence? What becomes of the party after independence and what do they then stand for? I assume that the usual suspects from the other parties will form Scottish versions of Lib/Lab/Con etc (or maybe not, that would of course be interesting). But what exactly does the SNP want to do with an independent Scotland once they have achieved their goal and can't just sit at the back blaming the English? I ask as it seems to me that the SNP is formed of a large variety of people with differing opinions that only agree on the issue that getting out of the UK will make everything better - for example, on this thread it was suggested that the SNP would attract investment of private companies, and yet the party often appears to be fairly left wing. Do they have any sort of real manifesto beyond the independence referendum?

[ljrmorgan]

Arguing against independence with a bunch of SNP supporters is a bit like arguing against the existence of god with a priest - no matter how right you might know you are, they've heard all the arguments before and always have a response. Having said that, I'll try anyway.

The reason that so many people in Scotland are apparently in favour of independence is probably because it is an issue that until this week has been largely ignored by the main parties, with the exception of the SNP, who, as various people have pointed out, appear to use every unpopular policy/controversial area, whether it be Iraq, ID cards, the NHS, ..., as a reason for Scotland to be independent.

I assume that the reason so many English apparently want Scottish independence is because of the recent, frankly, populist shit-stirring over the West Lothian question by the Conservatives. I agree that there is an issue there (though not as much of an issue as it may at first seem given that the number of Westminster constituencies in Scotland was reduced when the parliament was devolved) though Scottish independence is not the only answer.

As for people dismissing the "2.5 million (almost 50% of) Scots have family in England" argument, because Scots also have ties to India, Poland, everywhere else... is ridiculous - last time I looked 50% of Scots don't have close family in India!

Scotland's economy is also heavily dependent on English trade, I can't remember the exact figure, or the source, though I'm fairly sure I read recently that 90% of our service sector exports were to England. Aside from that, the costs of making Scotland independent would be incredibly high and absolutely crippling, anyone who doesn't realise/accept that is clearly living in a fantasy world. We'd be changing currency to the Euro (SNP are pro-Euro, I wont start on the endless anti-Euro arguments, though there are loads); god knows how we'd split up the military, NHS, every part of the public sector; we'd presumably need all the diplomatic stuff that goes with being a foreign country - embassies, links with the EU, god knows what else; One can only imagine the effect on industry, academia (how many English students are at St Andrews for example?), everything else that people in England and the rest of the UK as a whole contribute to.
The picture of an independent Scotland the nationalists seem to be painting seems to have all the economic benefits of being part of the UK and none of the downsides of not. Call me cynical, but frankly I think thats a bit far fetched. Its very difficult to argue whether or not Scotland's economy would be stronger if it were independent as no one seems to be able to agree on the effects of independence - the SNP say we'd be substantially better off, everyone else (well, most) completely disagree and both sides back up their arguments with surveys, statistics, theories, examples... The arguments I've stated above are just the most immediate things that jump into my head, I imagine there are thousands of better and more substantiated economic concerns.

One SNP argument over the economy is that by remaining part of the UK we have to suffer interest rates etc. set to benefit England which are not best suited to increasing Scottish economic growth. Instead they suggest we join the Euro, where the interest rate is set to benefit the main economies in the Euro zone, and may well be even more detrimental to Scotland. I could see that increased federalism (a Lib Dem policy) would allow a greater level of control over the local economy, not just in Scotland but in other regions of the UK as well, while still giving the advantages of one of the biggest economies in Europe, but I don't think completely breaking up the country and joining the Euro would benefit anyone at all.

The SNP seem to basically just criticise the "London controlled" Labour/Lib dem government and blame them and Westminster (read "England") for everything wrong with the country, without saying how they'd address it, other than by becoming independent. Who knows what would happen if (god forbid) Scotland did become independent and Salmond actually had to run something and couldn't blame England when it all went wrong.

If people wont to protest over Iraq then vote for the Lib Dems, who opposed the war, don't vote to break up the country over it - most people in, say, Newcastle (or anywhere else in the UK) opposed the war in Iraq, doesn't mean they're going to break away from the UK just to try and protest about it. If you see that there may be economic advantages if Scotland (or any other small region in the UK) had greater power over its economy, but don't support splitting the country up, then vote for the lib Dems who support increased federalism. If you want to vote for democratic reform of Westminster so the party with 30% of the votes doesn't get 60% of the seats and so your protest votes actually make a difference, then vote lib dem. If you want to vote for a party which has had experience of being in power in Scotland, which proposed the hunting ban, free personal care for the elderly, free buses for the elderly and the smoking ban, then vote lib dem. If you truly want a cleaner environment and a renewable Scotland then vote for the party that green peace called greener than the greens (who also support independence, btw), the lib dems. If you want to scrap tuition fees in the UK, vote lib dem.

(Finally stops writing and waits for the endless torrent of abuse and counter arguments...)

EDIT: tried to make it make a bit more sense

[AlenWatters]

I've alas missed most of the posting going in the last couple of days, but at least it gives me time to address the issue at root.

I am a nationalist, and almost born that way. It almost seems to go against every internationalist bone in my body, at a time when the world is, well, globalising. But for me, having had discussions and done a bit of research into various independence movements throughout Europe (ok well N.Ireland and Catlonia), I cannot see what the great problem is. Borders are coming down everywhere, and there will be no more of a border between England and Scotland come independence day.

I am ashamed by those people, within the SNP (and outwith it too), who resort to the low politics of sentiment and petty racism. Its all pish. My nationalism is one of enfranchising the Scottish people, be they born in Glasgow, Guildford, Gdansk or Gujarat, who are more than capable of taking the right decisions and electing the right governments. Much as it pains my leftie heart to say it, there will be a Tory revival here post-independence. In saying I abhor Scottish racism towards our English cousins, (which they will always, always be) it exists to exactly the same degree down south. Visiting my girlfriend's father's house in Gloucesteshire, and having people talk to me like I was a retard (because of Glasgow accent), and about the Scots like we were lucky we were even alive, was enlightening to say the least. Dare I say it, the views of many of the 'True-Blues', even certain Scottish ones, in St Andrews seem to mildly smack of the r-word.

As for the technical details, they are more than a minor point. Embassies will have to be aquired (or given as Independence gifts), new departments will have to be set up in Edinburgh, and we will have to make some sort of deal with the UK over who takes what. It will be difficult, and dare I say it might even cost something (but not too much) but these things will pay-off when we see the benefits, which I truly believe we will, despite what David Aaronovitch (he used to be not a bad read in thegrauniad), Gordon Brown, the US Consul or Steveo on the Sinner may say.

If you do have any other questions as to the dynamics, I would be more than happy to answer them. But I'll probably just get abuse.

[hr]

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc/

[Irish Frank]

Quoting ljrmorgan from 21:24, 28th Nov 2006
we'd presumably need all the diplomatic stuff that goes with being a foreign country - embassies, links with the EU, god knows what else

Oh man...what a treasure trove of jobs that would be for savvy IR grads from st a's...

[McK]

Quoting ljrmorgan from 21:24, 28th Nov 2006
One can only imagine the effect on industry, academia (how many English students are at St Andrews for example?)

Actually there would be no problem with this. Indeed, English students would probably get a better deal. The free movement of students is covered by the Free Movement of Persons in European Community Law.

[McK]

Quoting AlenWatters from 21:33, 28th Nov 2006
But for me, having had discussions and done a bit of research into various independence movements throughout Europe (ok well N.Ireland and Catlonia), I cannot see what the great problem is. Borders are coming down everywhere, and there will be no more of a border between England and Scotland come independence day.

The Catalans have a far stronger regional economy than Scotland has ever had. Their regionalist movement is based on that - Catalans feeling that they are subsidising the rest of Spain and seeing no return. Now, on that logic, it is London which ought to be leaving the UK.

Oh, and the prospect of full Catalan independence has been quelled with the recent constitutional decisions taken by the Cortes in Madrid and the Generalitat in Barcelona. They have only ever wanted fiscal and linguistic autonomy, but seem generally happy to remain part of larger Spain. Certainly, when I studied and did my research there that was my impression.