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Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Haunted on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:17 am

I'll leave your evidence based reasoning on a particular bronze age god for someone else; it's your second paragraph that I'm gunning for this time.
elyettoner wrote:There is evidence for a creator god and even in favour of that god being the Yahweh of the Bible. But as with evidence for everything, it can be interpreted in different ways, in which case someone's always right and someone's always wrong. Often, but not always, the outcome is determined on both sides of the debate by the belief already held by the one looking at the evidence, but this is not always the case. I'm sure Anthony Flew, for example, who may have been described by Dawkins (without evidence, funnily enough) as senile (perhaps because he defected? Doesn't do Dawkins' campaign much good), decided there was a god because of evidence, not just on a whim. Equally so, Christians have also stopped believing in the God of the Bible because of evidence.


Despite this being an obvious appeal to authority I feel that the 'old' Flew needs some defending.
Anthony Flew, let it be known, has converted from atheism to a form of deism. What was the non-whimsical piece of evidence that swayed him? The argument from design.

Yes that's right, Paley's watchmaker argument that was obliterated almost 200 years ago and is disregarded by any half-witted theologist, was that which sold Flew. Nevermind any points about cosmic "fine tuning", nevermind about the uncaused cause. Nope it was the most simplistic creationist argument that did it for him. Did he tell us of his conversion in his own words? No, his "confession" was ghost written for him by none other than famed christian apologist Roy Abraham Varghese.

Since his confession Flew also, apparently, petitioned Tony Blair to have intelligent design taught in schools. Does this really sound like a man of sound mind? The same man who gave us the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is now petitioning to have magic taught in schools? Madness.

A nice piece on this fishy story in the NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magaz ... .html?_r=1
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Haunted on Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:31 am

Holy texan dog shit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... nt_of_God/

The perfect case study for indoctrination being child abuse?
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby RedCelt69 on Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:50 am

Haunted wrote:Anthony Flew, let it be known, has converted from atheism to a form of deism.

I'd never heard of Flew until a few years ago. I kept hearing about this "famous British atheist" disavowing atheism. Famous British atheist, thought I? How come I'd never heard of him? What with me being an atheist. And British. And (I thought) fairly "up" on the scene of scepticism/humanism in the UK.

Where did I keep hearing about him? From Christian apologists.

When your position is flawed and weak as hell... I guess you have to cling on to every piece of flotsam that comes your way.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Haunted on Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:21 am

Also
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby macgamer on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:23 am

But then Dawkins answered them, 'An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Darwin. For as Darwin spent thirty years developing his theory, so has the Son of Science spent thirty years in heart of Reason. The men of Science will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Darwin, and behold, something greater than Darwin is here.'
"Progress should mean that we are always changing the world to fit the vision, instead we are always changing the vision."
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Senethro on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:31 am

thems is all some pretty words eleyettoner and its a very nice gap for your god to hide in but you still haven't told us why you're not a mormon
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Humphrey on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:52 am

Having heard Anthony Flew in recent interviews I think his mental powers have declined substantially. It's possible that this had some bearing on his decision to convert to a form of Deism and the arguments he uses (the impossibility of life emerging by naturalistic causes, the complexity of life) are among the weakest on offer. Worse than that, he seems to recant on occasions by saying 'Oh I misunderstood about the scientific arguments for the origin of life, it was Dawkins's fault!', before retreating to his former position. It is possible to move from a 'hard' atheist position to a form of philosophical deism/theism (I have done so myself), but I don't see how you can reasonably do so based on the biological complexity argument Paley came up with as a response to enlightenment athiesm. In short, I think Flew has been exploited by his fundamentalist Christian friends; namely Varghese and Habermas.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby RJC on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:52 am

UN General Assembly resolutions are not binding unless they are concerned with the internal structure of the UN, so they cannot create laws. Mandatory Security Council resolutions are binding, but they can only be made when there is a threat to international peace or security. Moreover, the UN Charter (to which the General Assembly must adhere to) demands 'the realization of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion'.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Haunted on Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:17 am

macgamer wrote:But then Dawkins answered them, 'An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Darwin. For as Darwin spent thirty years developing his theory, so has the Son of Science spent thirty years in heart of Reason. The men of Science will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Darwin, and behold, something greater than Darwin is here.'


In the beginning Steve created the cheese and the toast.
And the toast was without form, and void; and lea and perrins was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Steve moved upon the face of the sauce.
And Steve said, Let there be chutney: and there was chutney.
And Steve saw the chutney, that it tasted good: and Steve divided the chutney from the lea and perrins, for no reason.
And Steve called the chutney 'alright', and the lea and perrins he called 'not for me mate'. And the salt and the pepper were the first sandwich.

At this point I'm running into some severe narrative issues.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby exnihilo on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:00 am

Haunted wrote:Holy texan dog shit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... nt_of_God/

The perfect case study for indoctrination being child abuse?


That was disturbing. But it did make me want one of these
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Frank on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:46 am

Senethro wrote:thems is all some pretty words eleyettoner and its a very nice gap for your god to hide in but you still haven't told us why you're not a mormon


This is a good question. Eleyttoner: What's the pro-Yaweh O'Bible argument and not Jehovah McWitness or American MacMormon? Or even Abdul Al-Islam? Thorgrim Odinson? Vesuvius Vulcan? Gabrielle Gaia?
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Humphrey on Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:50 am

Senethro wrote:thems is all some pretty words eleyettoner and its a very nice gap for your god to hide in but you still haven't told us why you're not a mormon


A good place to start is the complete and total lack of archaeological evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby RedCelt69 on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:16 pm

Frank wrote:
Senethro wrote:thems is all some pretty words eleyettoner and its a very nice gap for your god to hide in but you still haven't told us why you're not a mormon


This is a good question. Eleyttoner: What's the pro-Yaweh O'Bible argument and not Jehovah McWitness or American MacMormon? Or even Abdul Al-Islam? Thorgrim Odinson? Vesuvius Vulcan? Gabrielle Gaia?


"Why must you invoke our lord and saviour in a post [snip waffle] Seriously, pretend you have some fucking dignity."

Not sure which one of those is our lord/lady and saviour. Just... y'know... covering all bases. It might be one of them. <gets out a collection of small cups and a wee ball> Pascal's Wager, anyone? ^.^
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby elyettoner on Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:19 pm

Haunted wrote:Despite this being an obvious appeal to authority


Erm, no. It was an example. Folk here really enjoy putting words in people's mouths.

Haunted wrote:Since his confession Flew also, apparently, petitioned Tony Blair to have intelligent design taught in schools. Does this really sound like a man of sound mind? The same man who gave us the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is now petitioning to have magic taught in schools? Madness.

A nice piece on this fishy story in the NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magaz ... .html?_r=1


You're basing a large part of your argument on:
i. Someone advocating something (the teaching of intelligent design) you subjectively believe to be a load of old cobblers.
ii. An article the authorship of which you know little if anything and could well have an agenda.

Good academic practice.

I'm a Christian because of a number of reasons; some of them being that the scriptures of other religions don't stand up to the level of historical scrutiny that the Bible does (this has been discussed elsewhere on here, so I'm not going to enter into that one here), I don't think creation would work if God were not triune, the experience of a personal relationship with him (never had that with another God).

As for Mormonism - claims to be linked to Christianity, yet God suddenly changes his MO by leaving a book somewhere rather than having someone write it and give it some degree of credibility. As I said, the God of the Bible doesn't expect unreasonable belief, leaving a book somewhere would necessitate that to some extent.

Haunted wrote:Holy texan dog shit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... nt_of_God/

The perfect case study for indoctrination being child abuse?


It could be argued that given the British education system, British youth and that crap that's on TV they're doing the best for their child. But no, on the whole I agree that stretching it to this extent is verging on child abuse.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby exnihilo on Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:31 pm

Hmm. The problem with that is, which God of the Bible? Why are you not Jewish? And having decided that God must be triune (which is quite a leap, but by no means the biggest logical disconnect of Christian theology) why the particular strain of Christianity you follow? Does Arianism have no appeal, for example?
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Haunted on Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:24 pm

elyettoner wrote:
Haunted wrote:Despite this being an obvious appeal to authority

Erm, no. It was an example.

Exactly the same thing. Of all people, you chose Flew, a notoriously outspoken atheist and a philosopher. Why not mention the bloke in the Takeaway who found god? He's an example. Of course, he's a example with a lot less clout than Flew, which is exactly why you chose him.
Haunted wrote:You're basing a large part of your argument on:
i. Someone advocating something (the teaching of intelligent design) you subjectively believe to be a load of old cobblers.

About as subjectively as I can call the theory of Intelligent Falling a load of old cobblers. Care to pick on that one?
Intelligent design is, as any good scientist (or theologian for that matter) will tell you is a big pile of goddidit nonsense. "Theory A can't explain X, therefore theory B. No matter what theory B is, even if it involves magic and pixie dust, always default to theory B". AKA BS.
ii. An article the authorship of which you know little if anything and could well have an agenda.

Oh it's the damned liberal media again. Did you even read it? There's only so much bias you can put on a fact.
Facts: Flew is 86,was an atheist and an established philosopher, swayed by (of all the arguments that exist) the worst kind of childishly simplistic creationist god-of-the-gaps-but-not-really-because-we-can-explain-the-gaps-but-fuck-it-it's-what-we-do fallacy. Confesses to this argument swaying him, not in his own words but ghost written by a christian apologist who just happens to agree with everything he says?
Alaram bells! Philosophers do not have ghost writers! Celebrities or politicians maybe, but a philosopher makes his career on his writing. Listen to him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkxpTIb ... re=related
He's just regurgitating classic creationist bullcrap word for word.
Good academic practice.

Oh but yeah that book he totally didn't write is right on the money.

I'm a Christian because of a number of reasons; some of them being that the scriptures of other religions don't stand up to the level of historical scrutiny that the Bible does (this has been discussed elsewhere on here, so I'm not going to enter into that one here), I don't think creation would work if God were not triune, the experience of a personal relationship with him (never had that with another God).

Nothing to do with the fact you were brought up in predominately christian society? Why is that Muslim parents beget Muslim children? I mean, if the silly Koran doesn't "stand up to historical scrutinty" then these kids would surely see that christianity is the way and the truth?
As for Mormonism - claims to be linked to Christianity, yet God suddenly changes his MO by leaving a book somewhere rather than having someone write it and give it some degree of credibility. As I said, the God of the Bible doesn't expect unreasonable belief, leaving a book somewhere would necessitate that to some extent.

Oh but the entire dead of Jerusalem rising up and wandering around without a SINGLE historical mention of this anywhere else, that's fine, that I can understand.

Haunted wrote:It could be argued that given the British education system, British youth and that crap that's on TV they're doing the best for their child. But no, on the whole I agree that stretching it to this extent is verging on child abuse.

I agree, and was almost pleasantly surprised that she didn't care for celeb reality culture. Still though, such isolation comes at a dramatic cost as we can see. That's 11 children the human race will never get back.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Senethro on Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:39 pm

see this is the big sticking point for all religion for me. If you can't show how your particular religion is not as retarded as mormonism then you have an insurmountable problem.

and as haunted has pointed out you're using different standards for judging other reasonably sensible religions like mainstream islam

you're very nearly an atheist like me as you disbelieve nearly all gods but you just won't apply the same critical thinking to your own irrational beliefs.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Humphrey on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:02 pm

Haunted wrote:Holy texan dog shit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... nt_of_God/

The perfect case study for indoctrination being child abuse?


If there is a God, do you think he facepalm's when she sees stuff like this?

The bit I loved best was where the fundamentalist chap was saying 'yeah I was at this mud party and this girl was touching me and I told her to stop because it was dirty; and she said 'yeah i'm really dirty'. But luckily I told her to go away and she did'.

Yeah, lucky escape there!. Idiot.

Also, another interesting thing I noticed, there was no discussion of evolution; instead they were all anti big bang. At one point they were sitting around saying 'yeah sure, a big explosion came along and created everything; you would have to be a fool to believe that!'. Reminded me of Fred Hoyle.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Haunted on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:04 pm

The bit I loved best was where the fundamentalist chap was saying 'yeah I was at this mud party and this girl was touching me and I told her to stop because it was dirty; and she said 'yeah i'm really dirty'. But luckily I told her to go away and she did'.
Yeah, lucky escape there!. Idiot.


Oh yes, the perfectly heterosexual older brother.

Also, another interesting thing I noticed, there was no discussion of evolution; instead they were all anti big bang. At one point they were sitting around saying 'yeah sure, a big explosion came along and created everything; you would have to be a fool to believe that!'. Reminded me of Fred Hoyle.


Kent Hovind, that was the nutty guy who's videos she puts on to fall to sleep to. That just HAS to be fucking her up at a fundamental undefuckable level.
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Re: Blasphemy a crime under UN resolution

Postby Senethro on Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:12 pm

thing is though that they're consistent and sincere in their belief while you have millions of people who would tick christian on a census form and be functionally identical to agnostic/atheist in their behaviour

all I can say is I'm grateful my parents left lots of reasonably objective kids science and history books lying about as soon as I could read

Edit: googled around a bit and spotted some funny things going on. thesinner often appears high up on google results so lets throw some search terms about

deborah drapper BBC3 documentary daily telegraph interview evangelical teen christian

don't worry googlers this board supports guest posting
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