The Lower Class

[Zombie Sheep]

Ok. I went to Edinburgh at the weekend and happened to end waiting for a train for 40 minutes or so. A friend and I were commenting on the people around and got thinking. We see so many groups of people from the lower classes, particularly those described in other threads as neds, chavs etc. Where the hell do they get these apparently brand new white clothes from? They cost a fortune.

The only conclusion that we could draw is that their fat lazy parents are sitting at home giving them half the money they get from the state, be it for disability benefit or the like. Why not cut off social security altogether, let people apply again, and then send people from good backgrounds, like most of the people here, round to their houses to find out how they live. If we think they are making an effort, give them some help, otherwise tell them how useless they are and to get off their fat arses and get a job - call centres don't require much intelligence, or good physique come to think of it.

After all, it is our money and our parent's money that they're spending on cigarettes and copies of the Daily Record, shouldn't we have some say in what they spend it on? Or why not just give them food and clothes instead of money? No more squandering of money would happen that way.

And a second thing. They are the people having children. Why aren't any better people having children? Why does it have to be these degenerates producing more thieves and drug addicts? Why can't it be successful, well-off people having clever children?

It's simply not good enough for this country, and that's clear.

(Edited because the paragraph formatting was bad)

[rob 'f*ck off' wine boy]

...

Or maybe their parents worked for them, or *gasp* maybe they worked for their own clothes, in a desperate bid to stop people making assumptions about how they live and whether or not they scav off the state based on what they wear.
I wonder if they look at you and decide that you must be well-off your parents are and that that you've done sod-all amount of work you've done to deserve your own garments? Is that true?

Not having a dig, just making a point - you made a vast amount of assumptions there, and even went off on a rant because of some people dressed in kappa or adidas, whatever it was.

[flossy]

With the parenting thing: the Netherlands has the lowest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe even though its age of consent is 14. It also offers no benefits (money, housing etc) for people just on the basis that they're up the duff. Coincidence?

[Manic23]

[s]Zombie Sheep wrote on 19:22, 9th Nov 2004:
Ok. I went to Edinburgh at the weekend and happened to end waiting for a train for 40 minutes or so. A friend and I were commenting on the people around and got thinking. We see so many groups of people from the lower classes, particularly those described in other threads as neds, chavs etc. Where the hell do they get these apparently brand new white clothes from? They cost a fortune.

The only conclusion that we could draw is that their fat lazy parents are sitting at home giving them half the money they get from the state, be it for disability benefit or the like. Why not cut off social security altogether, let people apply again, and then send people from good backgrounds, like most of the people here, round to their houses to find out how they live. If we think they are making an effort, give them some help, otherwise tell them how useless they are and to get off their fat arses and get a job - call centres don't require much intelligence, or good physique come to think of it.

After all, it is our money and our parent's money that they're spending on cigarettes and copies of the Daily Record, shouldn't we have some say in what they spend it on? Or why not just give them food and clothes instead of money? No more squandering of money would happen that way.

And a second thing. They are the people having children. Why aren't any better people having children? Why does it have to be these degenerates producing more thieves and drug addicts? Why can't it be successful, well-off people having clever children?

It's simply not good enough for this country, and that's clear.

(Edited because the paragraph formatting was bad)


Please please please tell me that this post was in jest, or that you were awfully drunk on Pimms when constructing it, or high on Class A narcotics at your friend Tamara Fossington-Smythe's Country Manor and you thought it'd be a good laugh etc etc etc...

Better...Successful, well off people...?

What????

[Koala Boy]

Speaking from an entirely evolutionary viewpoint, you could say that a successful person is one who has lots of children, and passed on lots of genes.

But seriously, the original poster seems a bit of a tosser. The vast majority of the "lower classes" (not my term) are in fact hard working people, and they are the ones who really suffer from the bias the welfare state gives to the small minority who are actually free-riding.

And is the poster seriously advocating that people who are poor enough to rely on state benefits, and can afford clothing, should have that benefit removed so they can't afford clothing? Will the original poster be happy if the "lower classes" all wear rags tied at the waist with a bit of string?

[flossy]

I think you're all being unfair to the original poster. I'm sick of paying for my eyetests [£18!], prescriptions [£6.70?] etc when people who have never paid anything into the system get them for free. When I work over the summer, I pay tax, my parents and grandparents pay tax so why should I pay for medical treatment during a poor time in my life when dolewallers get it for free, along with housing, money etc.?

[Humphrey]

Haha, blatent wind up post

[David Bean]

I can certainly vouch for Zombie Sheep - he's a good man (Charlie Brown) - but I think that both he and his critics here are failing to grasp that there are two sides to this issue, and each has significant merit.

Yes, there are scroungers. Yes, a lot of them are utter hoodlums who don't deserve to be given a penny in handouts. Yes, a lot of people on benefits are there because they cannot get a job through little fault of their own (owing to demand defficiencies). Yes, it's extremely difficult for any state-based system to discriminate between the two. But yes, it's imperative that something be done about it.

What's the solution? Well, I have my ideas, and doubtless others do too(kudos to Flossy for suggesting some), but I wonder if we might move this discussion away from the game of polarised view tennis that seems to be being played so far, agree on a little common ground and start discussing how society might solve the problems raised.

[hr]"Fiat justicia ruat colelum (Let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[Al]

Do you live in a flat? If you do, I assume that you voluntarily pay council tax. I would hate to think of you getting something (e.g. council services) without paying for it.

[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.

[quarterstaff]

zombie is being silly, but his humurous post does have a few interesting points, unusually:

should those who are unemployed be given enough money so that they can afford sky tv, fancy clothes and such? i would say no - they should be given enough money to survive, and thats it.

but also, you must admit there is something a bit wrong about the fact the unemployed and the unemployable get given money to exist, whilst students, who are getting degrees, and therefore increasing their employability are given only loans.

it would seem that the gov't is giving us amessage - if you do nothing we pay you... but if you try and get above your station, you have to accrew debt, even though we will be able to get better paying, and therefore more taxable jobs with our loans.

[Light the Rag]

[s]Al wrote on 21:12, 9th Nov 2004:
Do you live in a flat? If you do, I assume that you voluntarily pay council tax. I would hate to think of you getting something (e.g. council services) without paying for it.



But... hang on just one second there Al... Surely you're saying that people who are (temporarily) exempt from council tax, such as students are getting something for nothing? At least they can sleep easy at night knowing that they're paying full whack for all their tuition.

[Zombie Sheep]

And just to emphasise my point, as I walked down to East Sands, I was shouted at by some local kids. 'Hey mister, are you a student?'. Knowing what would follow, I decided to answer 'Yes'. 'Should you not be away home?' they asked, and I just didn't reply. This person then turned to their friends and said 'Hey, he's a student, lets kick the f*ck intae him'. What the hell is the point in them saying things like that? None at all - Degenerates. I'd like to see any of you try and argue otherwise.

[Humphrey]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

If you go to the audio video content on BBC news online you'll find a documentary on gang violence in glasgow. It begins with a bunch of little rascals burning down a tree and then leaping on the fire engine when it arrives. Theres some rather disturbing footage of N.E.Ds from rival estates kicking the crap out of each other with wooden clubs while adults cheer on from the flats above. When asked why they do this, the youngsters retort that 'theres nuthin else tae do on a friday night'. Theres also a programme on Tower Hamlets in London which is also pretty bad.

[Guest]

[s]Zombie Sheep wrote on 19:22, 9th Nov 2004:
We see so many groups of people from the lower classes,.....their fat lazy parents are sitting at home giving them half the money they get from the state, be it for disability benefit or the like.....and then send people from good backgrounds, like most of the people here....otherwise tell them how useless they are and to get off their fat arses and get a job - call centres don't require much intelligence, or good physique come to think of it....it is our money and our parent's money that they're spending on cigarettes and copies of the Daily Record,....They are the people having children...Why aren't any better people having children...these degenerates producing more thieves and drug addicts....Why can't it be successful, well-off people having clever children?


Oh my god.

If this is the voice of this country then god help us all. Seriously, that whole rant is the most condescending thing I have ever read about the so called lazy degenerate lower class.

I only hope by the time that this is posted that other people have made it clear they do not have the same horrible outlook of all those who are not amongst the "better people" as you put it.

Having read that post I feel positively unclean :/

[Guest]

[s]flossy wrote on 21:03, 9th Nov 2004:
I think you're all being unfair to the original poster. I'm sick of paying for my eyetests [£18!], prescriptions [£6.70?] etc when people who have never paid anything into the system get them for free.


If you are a student aged 19 or over you are eligible to get all of those for free.

If you are in full time education and earn less than £8000 a year which is mostly used up be outgoings such as rent etc then you are also eligible to get all those for free.

It's not widely advertised but there are plenty of leaflets at doctors, boots etc explaining where to get the forms etc. Even if your income is higher than £8000 you can still be eligible for reduced costs.


But anyway to suggest all people on benefits are scroungers is absolutely ludicrous. I didn't think people could live in such a bitter bubble.

[shocked]

[s]David Bean wrote on 21:10, 9th Nov 2004:
Yes, there are scroungers. Yes, a lot of them are utter hoodlums who don't deserve to be given a penny in handouts. Yes, a lot of people on benefits are there because they cannot get a job through little fault of their own (owing to demand defficiencies). Yes, it's extremely difficult for any state-based system to discriminate between the two. But yes, it's imperative that something be done about it.

What's the solution? Well, I have my ideas, and doubtless others do too(kudos to Flossy for suggesting some), but I wonder if we might move this discussion away from the game of polarised view tennis that seems to be being played so far, agree on a little common ground and start discussing how society might solve the problems raised.


Because that does not seem the point of the original post which was simply to lay into those people who do not fit into the mould of being "better people" and coming from a "good background".

It was a highly prejudiced rant and had it come from an unregistered user the thread would have simply become a flame fest against a "troll".

Regardless of what a "good man" that user is there is nothing good or prodcutive about that post at all. The only thing it achieves is to show the shameful bitter bubble that some students (no doubt those that class themselves as better people from a good background) appear to live in.

The statement "why aren't better people having children" says it all. The post was not intended to be a discussion on those unfortunate people on benefits through no fault of their own but to lump them in with those people who do scrounge under the umbrella of "lower class".

I'm beginning to agree with the opinion of many countries such as Australia, Canada and even the US who scratch their heads at the backwardness of this country. People really are seperated in this country more by class than anything else. This "us and them" attitude is bad enough without the "us the good decent people and them the degenerate lazy bums".

Has the world gone mad? PLease someone tell me that the majority of people don't consider themselves better than other people based solely on appearances or other such petty details.

The benefit scheme needs sorted but in no way like the original poster "suggested", and by suggested I mean ranted. So if you want a real discussion then I would suggest starting a more sensible thread because any newcomer to this one will assume it was started by a troll out to cause trouble and not to have any sensible discussion. WIth the initial post on this thread the latter is nigh on impossible.

[pfft]

[s]Zombie Sheep wrote on 23:05, 9th Nov 2004:
None at all - Degenerates. I'd like to see any of you try and argue otherwise.


Oh my god, I really really wish KateBush would post on here.

Because of what a bunch of people did (ie their actions) you choose to say that all groups of lower class people are the same based on how they look, that is to say that they are all degenerates or inferior to yourself.

If you go around with an attitude like that then I'm surprised that more people from all classes don't try and scare the crap out of you by threatening to beat you up but frankly your not worth anyones time at all I suppose.

Get a grip, stop generalising and if at all possible try and get out of the little self inflated bubble you have created for yourself that enables you to so sneer at people inferior to the shining example of humanity that you are.

[Guest]

[s]Humphrey wrote on 21:09, 9th Nov 2004:
Haha, blatent wind up post


Unfortunately not. All lower class people are violent neds and scroungers or hadn't you heard? The again hopefully this is just a belief held by one troll and is no indication to how St Andrews students actually think. Well I'd hope so anyway.

[rob 'f*ck off' wine boy]

If the original poster was trying to be humourous it certainly isn't obvious. If I'm missing a joke, ok fair enough, I'm an idiot. As for everyone pointing out that there ARE scroungers in the system...well duh, yes there are. Nice point, but nobody is contesting that there are freeloaders.

Zombie Sheep - yes people like that are very strange, if not unintelligible and irrational. I walked down one of the alleys between South St and Market St, and came across 3 young men kicking each other (honestly).

Great way to spend your evening...

[Scully]

[s]Unregisted User wrote on 22:40, 9th Nov 2004:[i]
[s]flossy wrote on 21:03, 9th Nov 2004:[i]
I think you're all being unfair to the original poster. I'm sick of paying for my eyetests [£18!], prescriptions [£6.70?] etc when people who have never paid anything into the system get them for free.


If you are a student aged 19 or over you are eligible to get all of those for free.

I got those things free for my first 3 years at uni. But this year, when i pay more rent and get less student loan(because it's my last year) i don't get it. I have to pay up to £30 for eyetest £70 for lenses, £115 for dental treatment, or the actual cost i'm charged- whichever is cheapest. I wear glasses and can't afford to pay £100 every time my eyes get worse. Not sure why they've done this. Maybe because my form runs from sept to sept, and i'm not a student after may. Just hoping my wisdom teeth won't start causing me problems!