Scotland needs independence now

[Stewart Smith]

I am a member of the SNP, but am not a "nationalist" as you may think. The fact is, you only have to look at how Scotland would benefit as an equal member of the EU like the Republic of Ireland. We could join the euro, which would see our interest rates halved and see our economic growth increase dramatically. We would be able to sign up to the EU Constitution without having to put up with a xenophobic Tory/UKIP vote down south. They who believe that the British constitution deems it a country but that Europe cannot have one. Well, let's have a look, shall we. The Magna Carta, forged centuries before the Union (even with Wales) and now three Celtic Tenors still have to put up with it. Britain isn't even a country! It's a centralised state with the inability to cater for it's many people.
How can we go around "saving the world" when 1 in 3 Scots children are in poverty? Surely, charity starts at home. The Unionist parties (Labour being the worst...) have made some outrageous statements in recent times.
1. Labour MP Martin O’Neill accurately, if rather cynically, defined Labour’s great political task in Scotland: "Our biggest problem is lowering the expectations of the Scottish people". ("Radical Scotland" June 1984)
2. Labour campaign manager Douglas Alexander MP put it another way: "We have got to engender fear of the SNP." (leaked memo, 1999)
3. Bank of England Governor Eddie George, said unemployment in the north was a "price worth paying" for low inflation in the south.
And then there are those who have either seen sense or whose tongue has slipped...
1.Prof Andrew Hughes Hallett, who was called upon to help set the entry rates of the eleven countries presently in the Euro-zone, said, "I see no reason why Scotland is unfit for the single currency", and has concluded that: "Scotland has an economy which is as robust as any in the European area. In fact, it is probably more robust and integrated than most.…It is not obvious that in a 21 st century of European free trade and global markets, Scotland requires a political union with England in order to take advantage of a single trading market." (Scotland on Sunday, 7-3-99)
2.Robin Cook, an arch-opponent of Independence, admitted to European business representatives that: "Europe is not going to throw Scotland out. It welcomes all comers and Scotland would be a member." (The Herald 28-7-00)
3."As a nation, they [the Scots] have an undoubted right to national self-determination." Margaret Thatcher (The Downing Street Years, 1995).
4. John Major MP, an outspoken opponent of Independence, said, "Should they determine on Independence, no English party or politician would stand in their way." (Scotland in the Union: A Partnership for Good, 1993)
And if you think we'd be too small, just look at the EU. Out of the other 24 current member states, 10 of them (Cyprus, Denmark, Republic of Ireland, Estonia, Malta, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Slovakia and Slovenia) are either similar or smaller than Scotland, and yet all of them have a seat at Europe’s top table.

The question is simple. Do you want to be seen as a county of England, impoverished and unable to address it's needs, or do you see them as an equal member of the free and democratic world?

www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Rex Mundi]

I'm all for independance for England. Long have suffered at the hands of the UK. It's time we went our own way.

[Iain]

Here here!

[warrengato]

Or do we want to be seen as an independant county, impoverished and unable to address it's needs?

[Iain]

Why???????? Explain!

[Stewart Smith]

The fact is, Britain will have to make its mind up soon. It can't hold on to Scotland yet not want to be part of Europe. It is therefore inevitable that Scotland will become independent of the United Kingdom and become an equal among the European Community. I predict independence within the next ten years (honest!).

[flarewearer]

[s]Stewart Smith wrote on 21:26, 5th Dec 2004:
The fact is, Britain will have to make its mind up soon. It can't hold on to Scotland yet not want to be part of Europe. It is therefore inevitable that Scotland will become independent of the United Kingdom and become an equal among the European Community. I predict independence within the next ten years (honest!).


and then we can grow fat off of our economy based on tartan and shortbread

[hr]
* 9 out of 10 cannibals agree;
"vegetarians taste BETTER"

[warrengato]

Explaining: Or do we want to be seen as an independent county, impoverished and unable to address it's needs?

Can Scotland exist with out being a part of the UK? We've been one country for several centuries. It's all fine and dandy to say that we should be independent, but unemployment here is at a height. Plus, the population rate is dropping. And we have no viable global export outside of tourism. Can golf keep a country running? Can Scotland live on it's own, or is this only an issue of identity. Maybe we should have a chat with Quebec and see how their search for independence is going.

[Marco Biagi]

and then we can grow fat off of our economy based on tartan and shortbread

Tourism yes, plus whisky (etc), oil and the an indigenous banking sector second only to Switzerland in proportion to population. And for the future, in renewable energy, Scotland has 25% of Europe's potential supply if fully exploited.

That's more strengths than Ireland, Norway, Denmark, Austria or Finland, but they all have higher GDPs than we do because their economies aren't joined at the hip to much larger ones with different interests, priorities and direction.

But we can keep the queen's head on the currency if that makes you feel better.

[warrengato]

A banking sector that is so strong because it's tied to the pound. And if basing an economy on a nonrenewable resource like oil seems like a good idea, it's best to have a chat with the Gulf Sates of the US. They had a great time with that in the 80's... and it's still working well.

[warrengato]

A banking sector that is so strong because it's tied to the pound. And if basing an economy on a nonrenewable resource like oil seems like a good idea, it's best to have a chat with the Gulf Sates of the US. They had a great time with that in the 80's... and it's still working well.

[Iain]

Thanks.

I would say to that, what changes under independence? We're going to get a couple of billion in tax revenue that Barnett formula denies us. Our integration to the Eurozone means the interest rates to allow our economy to prosper and help trading ties with Europe which are already pretty big. Our whisky tax, oil reserves etc can go into a trust fund for the future of the nation. We can remove the financial burden of the army/air force/nuclear weapons as we retain our infantry regiments etc as a force to be reckoned with for the EU and UN.

Once the economic conditions are right, there is an incentive for investment, and Scots/immigrants/students here will be more encouraged to stay. Population will begin rising again and get a bit younger too!

Moreover, a big argument is that all the conditions are right. It's not like Ireland becomming a State, where economy suffered for decades (correct me if I'm wrong, please!) until now. We've got many systems like justice, health, rail, councils, water etc already under our control too.

I suggest the above Stewart will be very willing to explain the arguments properly, it's not my speciality, I'm afraid!

On a personal note, I want to get my identity on paper, not just in my heart!

[Rennie]

You can have Scotland, but you're not getting the oil...

[Iain]

Unless you're a Norwegian expansionist, paws off!! If you are a Norwegian expansionist..... oh dear!

[David Bean]

The expression is "hear hear", not "here here".

Speaking personally, I was born British, and I shall die British. I have yet to have it explained to me what gives one part of the UK the right to section itself off from the rest, and rebuild Hadrian's Wall as a series of passport controls spanning the River Tweed.

[hr]"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[Stewart Smith]

To Rennie..

You talk about your oil. Just look at the facts...The Scottish sector of the present UK continental shelf has already been defined by the Continental Shelf Jurisdiction Order 1968 as being bounded on the south by the line of latitude 55 degrees 50' North, extending directly from the eastern end of the Scottish Border. Thus, the UK Government has, since 1968, recognised the jurisdiction of Scots law and the Scots courts over this sector, with this southern limit on the East Coast. A different dividing line relating to the jurisdiction over fisheries was imposed in 1999, under protest from the SNP and from Scottish fishermen. The Scottish sector of the Continental Shelf accounts for 90% of the UK’s present North Sea oil revenues. Even those who claim that territorial waters would need to be the subject of negotiation (on the basis, say, of the internationally recognised ‘equidistance principle’, which would require a median line equidistant from the Scottish and English coasts) still leave the Scottish oil fields substantially untouched. For instance, Professor Thomas Walde of Dundee University identified an "80—85%" Scottish share of North Sea oil revenues (Scotsman 20-4-97).

And to Mr Bean,

Customs checks at internal EU borders are illegal, and even passport controls have gone on most frontiers. The SNP supports the free passage of people and goods between Scotland and the remaining UK. Although the UK is not a signatory to the Schengen agreement, which seeks to ensure such free movement throughout the EU, there is no reason why Scotland and England should not agree to have no passport checks between the two countries. Already, there are no passport checks between the UK and Ireland.

Any more questions?

[David Bean]

I fully understand EU law so far as passport controls are concerned, just as much as I understand that the SNP are devout believers in a federal Europe, which tends to negate the 'N' part of their party's name. However, I thought it was reasonably clear that I was making the point rhetorically; it's about the legitimacy of one part of the country seceding when there are plenty of people within it - including myself and the vast majority of Scots, if the SNP's dire electoral performance in recent times is anything to go by - who are not prepared to see the country of their birth carved up among factions, and refuse to have the heights of the Pennines and the dales of Derbyshire be rendered any less 'theirs' than is Ben Nevis. This links in with the point about oil, which has always been used as a resource under the command of the British state, just as have revenues from the phenomenally powerful financial centre of London.

Britain is my country - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, greater than the sum of its parts. The selfish desire of people like yourself to deny me my birthright I find not only irrational, but also downright offensive.

[hr]
"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[Stewart Smith]

I am certainly not a believer in a federal Europe and neither is my party. Although, it would still be a better option than what we currently have. But again, you make the point about one part of the country. Britain is not a country. It is a geographical term only for the island mass. I don't think the people of Northern Ireland think of themselves as British (half of them don't anyway. The United Kingdom is how we are represented at the EU, UN etc. Scotland is a nation as decreed in the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320. So we would not be breaking a nation, merely dissolving a union. One which doesn't serve our interests and which we don't need due the far more democratic systems of Europe. Also, I find it hypocritical of a Tory to blast the SNP's performance in recent elections. You even underline my argument by saying that London is the phenomenally powerful financial centre. All the more reason why we must leave. The UK Government insists on economic policy to suit these areas. My desire is not selfish. The true separatists are those that would deny the Scots, English, Welsh and Northern Irish their say in the world. My desire is to see Scotland move forward with independence and have the ability to solve our problems.

[Anon.]

[s]David Bean wrote on 23:30, 5th Dec 2004:
...and refuse to have the heights of the Pennines and the dales of Derbyshire be rendered any less 'theirs' than is Ben Nevis.

The Pennines? Heights? We in the Lake District rather sneer at these excuses for heights - one can only just see them from Blencathra.

[flarewearer]

[s]David Bean wrote on 23:30, 5th Dec 2004:

Britain is my country - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, greater than the sum of its parts. The selfish desire of people like yourself to deny me my birthright I find not only irrational, but also downright offensive.



Britain still would be your country wouldnt it, just not in the form you are used to. Im sure you'd get over it. Just like people got over losing their birthrights in India and the empire.

[hr]
* 9 out of 10 cannibals agree;
"vegetarians taste BETTER"