Christian Voice Rides Again (more Christian Bashing)

[Paul]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 09:24, 24th Jan 2005:
Paul, you are completely insane.

Answer these, the questions that actual, sane people (both religious and atheist) have been bandying about in these boards:

Snip

In fact, here's a couple of quotes, since you think so highly of them:

Christianity persecuted, tortured and burned. Like a hound it tracked the very scent of heresy. It kindled wars and nursed furious hatreds and ambitions. It sanctified...extermination and tyranny...it dreamt of infinite blisses and crowns it should be crowned with before an electrified universe and an applauding God."
George Santayana (1863-1952)

I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized by its churches, has been and still is, the principal enemy of moral progress in this world.
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)


Rob, this is exactly how I felt when I started at university. So let me tell you something about myself and how I was converted. This will answer some of your questions.

I had a mother who was Roman Catholic at heart and has reverted to that belief now, and a father who was a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany. I was brought up High Anglican, but by the time I entered university I had stopped attending church and believed that the church was responsible for all the world’s ills.

I was doing the same course as someone who had sung in the church choir and who had become a committed Christian. He invited me along one night to attend a barbecue with a group of young people – mostly still at school – and I decided that I was going to “educate” them about the church.

Whatever I said, they always responded with Scripture, and this forced me to search the scriptures for myself in order to be able to deal with the points which they made.

After several weeks of this, staying up into the early hours to study the Scriptures, God brought me to the point of repentance and conversion one Sunday night.

These youngsters were doing exactly what God had told them to do – bring people to faith by the preaching of his Word - and their efforts were bearing fruit.

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? … So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” – Romans 10:14 & 17

So, although I was “christened” and brought up as a “Christian”, that is not the way one becomes a Christian. Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” – John 3:5. And again, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” – John 6:63

Not everyone who hears the Word is converted

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel.” – Romans 10:16a

Neither is everyone who calls themselves Christian, Christian. Neither is every church.

“And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” – Revelation 2:8-9

The largest group which calls itself a Christian Church and is not, is the Roman Catholic Church, and it is this group that has blackened the name of Christianity by at the heart much brutal persecution of Christian and non-Christian alike. That is how so many people (including me at one time) thought that the Church was responsible for all the evil in the world.

Today, this idea has been given added weight by the ecumenical movement and all the “Protestant” churches which are prepared to accept Roman Catholicism as Christian, when they are not.

[Paul]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 09:24, 24th Jan 2005:
3) How do you account for the fact that certain christian tenets cannot apparently be true (see the freewill argument discussed elsewhere, in which it is shown simply and incontrovertibly that we are not free if God is omniscient, for an example)?

This is only a problem if you belong to – or take the doctrines of – a group known as Arminians.

Reformed Theology would agree that man does not have free will. And this is in line with Scripture.

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:44

The Five Points of Reformed Theology (also known as Calvinism), are represented by the mnemonic T- U - L - I –P.

T – Total Depravity, that is, man is dead in his sins, and totally incapable of doing anything to save himself. The Apostle Paul writing to believers stated:

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)” – Ephesians 2:1-5

U – Unconditional Election, that is, God chooses believers – unconditionally of their sinful state:

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;” Ephesians 1:4-8

L – Limited Atonement, that is, Christ died only for “the many”, the elect.

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” – Matthew 26:28

“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.” – Isaiah 53:11

I – Irresistible Grace, that is, when God calls, the elect cannot resist.

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12-13

P – Preservation of the Saints, that is, those whom God has elected cannot lose their salvation.

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.” – John 10:27-30

See http://www.mslick.com/tulip.htm and http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm for a more in depth analysis.

[Guest]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 09:24, 24th Jan 2005:
1) In what sense is the Bible a more plausible authority than the Koran or the Talmud? If you're quoting the Bible and somebody else is quoting the Koran, why are you right and he wrong?


In the first instance the Bible makes a unique claim, It claims that salvation is not earned by good works, it is found in a person, namely Jesus Christ, and is the gift of God. Every religion with the exception of Biblical Christianity (or Biblical Judaism – there is no difference between the two) claims that man has to strive to attain salvation or Nirvana, or paradise, or some such.

“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” – Acts 4:10-12

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” – Romans 6:23

The Bible is unique, and as such should be studied to see whether it is true. If other beliefs are right I loose nothing by studying it – but if the Bible is right and I ignore it, I loose everything!

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” – John 5:39

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.” – Acts 17:10-12

“Search the Scriptures”!

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” – John 8:32

[Paul]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 09:24, 24th Jan 2005:
1) In what sense is the Bible a more plausible authority than the Koran or the Talmud? If you're quoting the Bible and somebody else is quoting the Koran, why are you right and he wrong?


In the first instance the Bible makes a unique claim, It claims that salvation is not earned by good works, it is found in a person, namely Jesus Christ, and is the gift of God. Every religion with the exception of Biblical Christianity (or Biblical Judaism – there is no difference between the two) claims that man has to strive to attain salvation or Nirvana, or paradise, or some such.

“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” – Acts 4:10-12

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” – Romans 6:23

The Bible is unique, and as such should be studied to see whether it is true. If other beliefs are right I loose nothing by studying it – but if the Bible is right and I ignore it, I loose everything!

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” – John 5:39

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.” – Acts 17:10-12

“Search the Scriptures”!

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” – John 8:32

[Rob Hearn]

After several weeks of this, staying up into the early hours to study the Scriptures, God brought me to the point of repentance and conversion one Sunday night.

So you indoctrinated yourself. If you'd sat up reading the Koran, you'd have no doubt subscribed to its assertions instead.

And as I said, there's no point quoting the bible at any of us, because - as you should be able to see by now - it turns people away. When you make words bold in particular you give the impression of fanatasism a la Mrs Ross. It's highly unlikely that anybody other than you is going to be duped into believing something whilst consulting it for a ready response to drivelling Christians like you. You were born a High Anglican and you're still one. Big surprise. You inherited your faith - albeit after a period of enlightened remission - in the manner of all people who cannot face up to the fact that their parents were wrong.

I prefer protestantism to catholicism, but I can see why catholics can hold it in contempt. Protestantism is new, dreamed up several centuries after the object of its idolatry died (once). How can a follower of this upstart branch of christianity claim the catholicism isn't christian? And, without reference to the bible, for reasons I stated above, what rational basis is there for believing in god? Because nobody here is stupid enough to believe in something just because a book and a few loons say that it exists. We need hard evidence. Or, hell, circumstantial evidence. And to constructively contribute to this debate, which is going on for the most between reasonable, intelligent opponents, you need to make an actual contribution. Otherwise, your arguments are going to continue to incur scorn.

And your little Pascal's Wager reference in there is contemptible. I really don't understand why anybody would think that such a cynical piece of self-serving chicanery would constite a reason to believe in something. But then, the christian's intellectual arsenal is pretty meagre in this day and age. You guys need all the weapons you can get, even ones as crude as Pascal's Wager.

Finally, are you saying that you believe we don't have free will? If so, how much more cruel that makes god! Sinners have no choice but to sin, and then go to hell for it.

What utter toss.

Oh, and please, for everybody's sake, stop quoting the bible. There really isn't any point, and it makes you look mad. Arguments, not quotes, should be the content of an intellectual debate.

[sejanus]

[s]Unregisted User Paul wrote on 10:53, 24th Jan 2005:
U – Unconditional Election, that is, God chooses believers – unconditionally of their sinful state:



I've been reading this thread for ages. And I have to say, I've found it a hoot, as well as a generally thoughtful and respectful discussion, and I say that to pretty much all parties. Thanks to all, it's given me lots to think about.
But this election rubbish. Something I've always hated. So, since everyone loves quotations, and since tomorrow night is a celebration of one of Scotland's finest humanist poets, I thought I'd bore everyone with a massiven quotation that I think says it all about the hypocritcal 'elect'.

(Sorry. Drink whisky, read Burns. Steps to a happier life.)

Holy Willie's Prayer

O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
Wha, as it pleases best Thysel',
Sends ane to heaven an' ten to hell,
A' for Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done afore Thee !

I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
When thousands Thou hast left in night,
That I am here afore Thy sight,
For gifts an' grace
A burning and a shining light
To a' this place.

What was I, or my generation,
That I should get sic exaltation,
I wha deserv'd most just damnation
For broken laws,
Sax thousand years ere my creation,
Thro' Adam's cause.

When from my mither's womb I fell,
Thou might hae plung'd me deep in hell,
To gnash my gums, and weep and wail,
In burnin lakes,
Where damne'd devils roar and yell,
Chain'd to their stakes.

Yet I am here a chosen sample,
To show thy grace is great and ample;
I'm here a pillar o' Thy temple,
Strong as a rock,
A guide, a buckler, and example,
To a' Thy flock.

O Lord, Thou kens what zeal I bear,
When drinkers drink, an' swearers swear,
An' singing here, an' dancin there,
Wi' great and sma' ;
For I am keepit by Thy fear
Free frae them a'.

But yet, O Lord! confess I must,
At times I'm fash'd wi' fleshly lust:
An' sometimes, too, in warldly trust,
Vile self gets in ;
But Thou remembers we are dust,
Defil'd wi' sin.

O Lord ! yestreen, Thou kens, wi' Meg -
Thy pardon I sincerely beg ;
O ! may't ne'er be a livin plague
To my dishonour,
An' I'll ne'er lift a lawless leg
Again upon her.

Besides, I farther maun allow,
Wi' Leezie's lass, three times I trow -
But Lord, that Friday I was fou,
When I cam near her;
Or else, Thou kens, Thy servant true
Wad never steer her.

Maybe Thou lets this fleshly thorn
Buffet Thy servant e'en and morn,
Lest he owre proud and high shou'd turn,
That he's sae gifted:
If sae, Thy han' maun e'en be borne,
Until Thou lift it.

Lord, bless Thy chosen in this place,
For here Thou has a chosen race,
An' blast their name,
Wha brings Thy elders to disgrace
An' public shame.

Lord, mind Gaw'n Hamilton's deserts;
He drinks, an' swears, an' plays at cartes,
Yet has sae mony takin arts,
Wi' great an' sma',
Frae God's ain priest the people's hearts
He steals awa.

An' when we chasten'd him therefor,
Thou kens how he bred sic a splore,
An' set the warld in a roar
O' laughing at us; -
Curse Thou his basket and his store,
Kail an' potatoes.

Lord, hear my earnest cry and pray'r,
Against that Presbyt'ry o' Ayr;
Thy strong right hand, Lord make it bare
Upo' their heads;
Lord visit them, an' dinna spare,
For their misdeeds.

O Lord my God! that glib-tongu'd Aitken,
My vera heart an' flesh are quakin,
To think how we stood sweatin, shakin,
An' piss'd wi' dread,
While he, wi' hingin lip an' snakin,
Held up his head.

Lord, in Thy day o' vengeance try him,
Lord, visit them wha did employ him,
And pass not in Thy mercy by them,
Nor hear their pray'r,
But for Thy people's sake destroy them,
An' dinna spare.

But, Lord, remember me an' mine
Wi' mercies temporal and divine,
That I for grace an' gear may shine,
Excell'd by nane,
And a' the glory shall be Thine,
Amen, Amen!

[Pender Native]

But if those who are not predestined (such as Rob presumably by your arguments) are going to reject God just as freverently no matter what you say because God is not calling them why are you trying so hard to convince them to repent and be saved?

You're wasting your time, both by their estimation since they think you are an idiot and by this stage would probably ignore you if you brought the human - as opposed to disembodied - Christ round to their door and introduced them, and by your own Calvinistic belief they are not going to be saved no matter what you do and are probably setting yourself up against the will of God who presumably wants some people to torment for all eternity.

[Dr Strangelust]

"The Bible is unique, and as such should be studied to see whether it is true. If other beliefs are right I loose nothing by studying it – but if the Bible is right and I ignore it, I loose everything! "

Ah, so your playing the odds! Very wise. You will therefore be interested in purchasing a magic rock off me which I guarantee (money back!) will stop dragons eating you. Granted there's no evidence that dragons exist and want to eat you but it is mentioned in a book somewhere.

Only £600! No, to you my friend £500! Is good price!

[Dr Strangelust]

"The Bible is unique, and as such should be studied to see whether it is true. If other beliefs are right I loose nothing by studying it – but if the Bible is right and I ignore it, I loose everything! "

Ah, so your playing the odds! Very wise. You will therefore be interested in purchasing a magic rock off me which I guarantee (money back!) will stop dragons eating you. Granted there's no evidence that dragons exist and want to eat you but it is mentioned in a book somewhere.

Only £600! No, to you my friend £500! Is good price!

[Dr Strangelust]

Deleted because multiple posts appeared.

[Dr Strangelust]

"The Bible is unique, and as such should be studied to see whether it is true. If other beliefs are right I loose nothing by studying it – but if the Bible is right and I ignore it, I loose everything! "

Ah, so you're playing the odds! Very wise. You will therefore be interested in purchasing a magic rock off me which I guarantee (money back!) will stop dragons eating you. Granted there's no evidence that dragons exist and want to eat you but it is mentioned in a book somewhere.

Only £600! No, to you my friend £500! Is good price!

[exnihilo]

I'm sorry, there's no distinction between Biblical Christianity and Biblical Judaism? How do you figure that out? I'm intrigued...

[Guest]

What i've always wondered is, why would god send someone to hell for ever?
I mean even if you killed 1,000 people a day every day for your entire life, then (say) 1,000,000 years per person in hellish tormet would be punishment enough, why must it be eternity?

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 16:14, 25th Jan 2005:
I'm sorry, there's no distinction between Biblical Christianity and Biblical Judaism? How do you figure that out? I'm intrigued...


That could make for a very lengthy post. I already have given some thought to a reply, but it would help if I knew of any particular areas which were causing a problem.

BTW, please be patient as I am not well at the moment, and have just got out of bed to respond this.

[Paul]

[s]Rob Hearn wrote on 19:26, 24th Jan 2005:
[i]After several weeks of this, staying up into the early hours to study the Scriptures, God brought me to the point of repentance and conversion one Sunday night.

You were born a High Anglican and you're still one. Big surprise. You inherited your faith - albeit after a period of enlightened remission - in the manner of all people who cannot face up to the fact that their parents were wrong.[/i]

Actually, I am not a High Anglican and very much opposed to what it represents.

As to not being able to face up to the fact that my parents were wrong - My mother would laugh at that one. We have very major differences - to the point that I would not be able to attend her funeral!

[Paul]

[s]Unregisted User wrote on 20:31, 24th Jan 2005:
What i've always wondered is, why would god send someone to hell for ever?

That is how seriously God views sin and the rejection of his remedy for it - after all, it cost him the life of his only-begotten Son.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" - Romans 6:23

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" - Romans 5:12

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:6-8

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

That is what God has revealed to us, and we either believe it or reject it. Eitherway, there are consequences.

[legohead]

at the risk of another long post from you, Paul, why on earth could you not attend your mother's funeral? just because you don't believe the same things as her, doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to attend a public burial ceremony.

If I had a friend who was, for example, shintoist (sp?) and they died, I would definately go to their funeral. I am a Christian- incidentally Catholic. I may not have shared their belief system, I may even disagree with aspects of it (theortically, as I don't have a shintoist friend, and I am terribly ignorant about the religion) but would attend out of respect for them and their family, and most importantly out a desire to celebrate their existance.

despite our differences we are all human, believers, or atheists or agnostics and all entitled to friendship and respect. but hey that's just my wishy-washy liberal spin on things.

[Rilla]

http://www.jesuschristsuperstore.net

[n01]

[s]Unregisted User Paul wrote on 11:22, 26th Jan 2005:

BTW, please be patient as I am not well at the moment, and have just got out of bed to respond this.



What a martyr. I'm feeling pretty shitty today so I thought I'd unload it. You'll probably like it any Paul because Christians love being persectured for their beliefs. It makes them think they're even more right.

I hate fundamentalist Christians who poke around the Bible and take anything that they think they can use, interpret it to their own needs, and deploy. It bothers me when people start talking about aliens and jesus returning 3.5 hours after the 32nd alien lands, but only after the third full moon of the second month after the year that there was no sun. Aside from sundays.

I agree with a lot of the idea's and morals of the Bible, but some people just take it too far and it gets ridiculous. Bah, I'm done ranting.

[Rob Hearn]

Actually, I am not a High Anglican and very much opposed to what it represents.

As to not being able to face up to the fact that my parents were wrong - My mother would laugh at that one. We have very major differences - to the point that I would not be able to attend her funeral!

Fair enough, I shouldn't have made the inference. You are still religious, though, and that makes my point, though with less force.

You wouldn't attend your mother's funeral? Yet another example of the warping effect that religion has on people. What a shame.

Oh, and stop quoting the bible.