Christian Voice Rides Again (more Christian Bashing)

[Pender Native]

I would have to join with LonelyPilgrim in despairing of what you have accomplished. Apart from uniting the most divided viewpoints on this board you have completely undermined the position of beleivers in this discussion by behaving like the dogmatic, arrogant, condemnatory, blase, ignorant, judgemental, closed minded fundamentalists that people like Rob assume we all are. And you have destroyed any advances that we had made in convincing him that although our various beliefs - Christian, Jewish etc.- differed from his, they were arrived at thoughtfully and reflectively, not just by blindly accepting what we have read and been told and are therefore legitimate.



[hr]
'I like to listen to a man who likes to talk. Whoops! Sawdust and Treacle, put that in your herring and smoke it!' - quote from the Bursar in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. Hope that clears up any confusion as to my personal tastes!

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 10:59, 19th Jan 2005:
Christ was a teacher of compassion and mercy, not of arrogant words and rudeness.

This is only partly true. Christ had loving words for some, and words of rebuke for others – even for his disciples.

Here is an occasion with Peter, “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.” – Matthew 16:23

On another occasion, speaking to Jews he said the following:

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” – John 8:31-32

But only a few verses later to the rest of the Jews present:

“Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” – John 8:42-47

[Dr Strangelust]

Paul, are you Mrs Ross? or that asshole who bellows gospel on Market Street every Saturday morning? Have you ever had an independant thought?

[Paul]

[s]Dr Strangelust wrote on 15:00, 19th Jan 2005:
Paul, are you Mrs Ross? or that asshole who bellows gospel on Market Street every Saturday morning? Have you ever had an independant thought?


No, I am not Mrs Ross, although I know of her.

No, I am not on Market Street evry Saturday morning, but I have been there in the afternoon. Oh, and I was also outside the Crawford Arts Centre (Corpus Christi and all that).

Oh yes, I have independent thoughts. My web-site bears witness to that!

[Livia]

How does it come about that someone (ostensibly) trying to bring others into their own perceived light can ignore each and every point put in argument against them and spout the same moralistic scripture at all comers entirely oblivious to the fact that those who do not share the Christian faith will not be brow-beaten by scriptural "truth"?

[exnihilo]

This is the sort of thing that has always put me, and I'm sure countless others, off discussing their faith or indeed discussing faith generally. Partly fear of coming up against someone like this in argument (not for fear of their arguments but because mad drooling and staring eyes are off putting), and partly for fear that others will assume that this is what I'm like as well.

[Pender Native]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 17:27, 20th Jan 2005:
and partly for fear that others will assume that this is what [i]I'm like as well.
[/i]

Yeah, like I said above, he is giving all the believers on this thread, who were previously having a (fairly) resonable and balanced discussion a bad name. *We're not all like that!*


[hr]
'I like to listen to a man who likes to talk. Whoops! Sawdust and Treacle, put that in your herring and smoke it!' - quote from the Bursar in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. Hope that clears up any confusion as to my personal tastes!

[Paul]

[s]Pender Native wrote on 17:33, 20th Jan 2005:
Yeah, like I said above, he is giving all the believers on this thread, who were previously having a (fairly) resonable and balanced discussion a bad name. *We're not all like that!*

OK, Pender Native and LonelyPilgrim,

[l]
[li]What are you like?
[li]How does one become a Christian?
[li]What does being Christian mean to you?[/l]

I am willing to listen.

[LonelyPilgrim]

Oh boy... I just know what's going to happen here... I'm going to answer these questions and then get blasted with scripture taken out of context and a sermon all about how wrong I am. *sigh* Still, someone must carry the torch, and since I haven't been smart enough to shut up so far...

1. I'm generally a fairly quiet, yet confident, student who hold firm in his beliefs, whether those be religious or otherwise, until such time as someone comes along with a reasonable argument, well made, to change those beliefs. I'm quite stubborn. I like to think of myself as generally caring and fair to others, and reasonable pragmatic, tempered with the occasional idealist flight of fancy.

2. To become a Christian, one must accept that Christ was the Son of God, that He died for us, and that His death has the power to wash away our sins. One must ask God for the Holy Spirit and recieve it. One must accept that one can not live a life free from sin without the Holy Spirit, and even then it's a continuing process of getting better, that will not be complete until after shuffling off this mortal coil. Further, one must accept a personal God and pursue a personal relationship with God and the living Christ.*

3. What, exactly does this question mean? I suppose being Christian means to me that I have an imperative to do good deeds and to love my neighbor, though I don't feel that either is part of 'becoming' Christian. I suppose there is an imperative to bring others to the Faith, but frankly, I'll do that quietly, but living a life of example, and worry about more immediatly practical things, like feeding people. And of course, I feel like part of the universal church, the brotherhood of believers. Although, I find some types of belief and preaching to be difficult to co-exist with... much like the uncle noone talks about...

*I know there will be Christians who disagree on some points, I respect your views, but I must answer with my own.

[hr]I must down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by,
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song and the white sail's shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea's face, and a grey dawn breaking. --- Sea Fever, John Masefield

[n01]

/applause

I thought that was well put and I agree with your 'definitions'.

I don't think that anyone really has the 'authority' to say you're wrong... We are all born 'sinners' and we can meerly try our best to find our way.

I think as long as you believe, and truly put your best effort first... then that is all there is.

And to non-believers... I don't think there's anything 'wrong' with not believing. I think its a choice one makes... I don't think that its good to bash Christians, but they should be able to defend themselves properly.

My thought on what makes one Christian or not... well, I think it REALLY depends on how you were brought up. If you were brought up in say, an Islamic family, where all the families and neighborhood were Islamic... then you will not likely become Christian. I think its very hard to say, or I don't even think its possible to say that one 'religion' is 'right' or 'wrong'. If one believer fervently believes in their religion, because its what they were brought up with... whats the difference if it's Christianity or Islam? Or ANY religion. I only picked Islam randomly. Fill in any religion you want.

Note: Ignore obvious statements and any word in 'quotes' is in quotes because I couldn't think of a better word to fit. All of the 'quoted' words sound funny. So excuse them as well... just to get the jist of my thoughs :$

[Dr Strangelust]

I find theology interesting at times but I must say I find it easier being an unbelieving heathen who doesn't need to lose sleep over it. It seems to me that there is no need to believe in gods or an afterlife. In the absence of any evidence, the sensible thing is to assume the simplest conclusion, namely that this life is all we're getting so make the most of it.

Justice, mercy and sin are all human inventions. To paraphrase Jack Sparrow, the only things that matter are what a man can do, and what a man can't do. This is not to imply I hold no moral values. I do, however, find morality to be very subjective and not divinely inspired and absolute.

[Pender Native]

I agree with LonelyPilgrim, especially about being a Christian involving an ongoing process of improvement, rather then an instant attainment of perfection - which is how some Christians seem to assume it works, and about teaching about Christianity by example. I have found it much more effective then ramming your beliefs down people's throats, as that only tends to aggravate people and make it appear that converting to Christianity involves leaving your brain at the door.

I'm sorry if Pilgrim felt abandoned, I had exams yesterday and the day before, so wasn't really on the Sinner much.

[upallnight]

do apoloigise if this point has already been brought up (couldn't be bothered to read all the messages)

but my point is this: for people banging on about how wrong it is to criticise other people's mode of life, you do seem awfully intolerant to Christians.

you hate being told that your way of life/sexuality etc is wrong yet this is exactly what you are doing and if you don't like it, why do it to someone else?

i'm Christian and i like to think that i am an accepting and tolerant person and i don't like to be "pigeon-holed" as an intolerant bitch just cause of my religion

[exnihilo]

I think that people are only calling intolerant people intolerant. However, I would imagine that most people on here don't think it is given to anyone, Christian or otherwise, to pass judgement on the way they live their lives.

I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to say that they just want to be free to hate, condemn and persecute a large part of the population and that calling them intolerant for doing so is insensitive. I'm afraid that argument just does not wash.

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 23:06, 22nd Jan 2005:
I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to say that they just want to be free to hate, condemn and persecute a large part of the population and that calling them intolerant for doing so is insensitive. I'm afraid that argument just does not wash.


exnihilo, where have I said I hate you? If I hated you, I would leave you to die in your sin.

It is in the first instance because I love God - and he commands believers to preach the Gospel to every creature that I preach.

In the second instance, it is because I love you, and would not want to see you spending an eternity in torment in hell without at least being warned that this is your end.

And where have I condemned you? It is not given to me to be your judge. However, the Word of God condemns sin - of all kinds. And it is the Word of God that I have quoted – not my own opinions.

As I have said in a previous post:

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” – John 5:39

So my words or opinions are of no consequence, it is God’s Word that matters – whether you choose to believe it, or not.”

End Quote

Further, I have stated that we are all sinners - that includes me! We all deserve a place in hell. But God, in his mercy, has made a way to heaven for those who will accept it.

And where have I persecuted you or anyone else? I and my brethren are the ones who are persecuted – arrested because of complaints made by homosexuals, Moslems, and others, physically attacked (yes even by homosexuals), thrown out of one organisation after another, lost jobs, even lives – all because we loe God and our neighbour and therefore preach the truth.

And worse things are coming upon this earth in the near future.

“And they” – that is the Jews – “ shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

– These times were fulfilled when Israel captured the Old City of Jerusalem in 1967 –

“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” – Luke 21:24-27

And now you may mock, but I will tell you what is going to happen soon. There will be an APPARENT extra-terrestrial invasion of the earth. And many will believe that life on this earth was a genetic experiment started by them. But this will be a lie. These extra-terrestrials will really be fallen angels, led by Satan, who have been cast out of their spiritual abode in “high places” surrounding the earth and physically appear on earth.

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” – Ephesians 6:12

The Greek word translated “high places” is “epouranios” – in heavenly places. Notice the use of the phrase “the powers of heaven”, and “those things which are coming on the earth” in Luke 21 previously quoted.

This ties in with the following passage in Revelation 12:7-12:

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

That is, “a short time” before Christ returns to this earth. Only believers in Jesus Christ – Y’shua HaMashiach – will be saved on the day of His return.

“Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.” – Hebrews 3:7-13

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” – Acts 17:30-31

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” – I Corinthians 6:9-11

[Dr Strangelust]

Seriously, if you beleive a devine booger-man is going to torture us all for eternity in punishment for jacking off or being a dirty Jew, that's fine. But keep it to yourself.

[exnihilo]

It's 2 a.m. and my brain is fried - so it is entirely possible that I didn't just read this but merely dreamt it. I may be back tomorrow to address the points.

For now, however, I will just say that my last post was not actually directed at you, Paul, but from the tenor of your reply it would seem you suffer from a severe persecution complex so it's understandable that you would make that mistake.

[Yemminie]

[s]Unregisted User Paul wrote on 00:08, 24th Jan 2005:
It is in the first instance because I love God - and he commands believers to preach the Gospel to every creature that I preach.

I should probably stay out of this, but I can't sleep, so I'm going to comment. You say that you preach because God has commanded it. And that's fair enough. But people have been pointing out repeatedly on this thread that the method that you are using to preach is actually turning people away from the message that you're trying to spread. This seems extraordinarily counterproductive to me. So maybe you should try to listen a little more and preach a little less and try to figure out a way to be faithful to God without alienating the majority of people that you are trying to influence. Think St. Francis of Assisi - "preach the Gospel - if necessary, use words."

[Rob Hearn]

Bah, I'm breaking my vow of silence

Paul, you are completely insane.

Answer these, the questions that actual, sane people (both religious and atheist) have been bandying about in these boards:

1) In what sense is the Bible a more plausible authority than the Koran or the Talmud? If you're quoting the Bible and somebody else is quoting the Koran, why are you right and he wrong?

2) How does it make more sense to be a Christian than Muslim or a Jew? (Were you born into a Christian family, because if so I'll let you know that I think inheritance is a pretty contemptible way to come by any conviction, certainly one as intense and unsupportable as yours).

3) How do you account for the fact that certain christian tenets cannot apparently be true (see the freewill argument discussed elsewhere, in which it is shown simply and incontrovertibly that we are not free if God is omniscient, for an example)?

4) How also can you state that God is good, knowing as you do that he regards us all as sinners for something we didn't do? Isn't the notion of being born into sin one of the utmost stupidity, anyway? And isn't eternal torment a heavy handed punishment for a lot of extremely minor transgressions? In what sense is this ruthless, judgemental, callous, gaolor (for callous, look at the tsunami for a recent example, or the fact that he never, ever actually appears to do anything whatsoever for a more general one) a good entity?

I'm anticipating the answers to these questions already - supported with bible quotes and declarations of love. Well listen, we all - religious and athiest alike, recognising the rational necessity of the move -decided a long time ago in these boards not to quote the bible, because until one can be convinced of god's existence, the bible carries no weight. An atheist is no more likely to be converted by bible passages than a sceptic is likely to be convinced of the existence of ghosts by reading casper. If you want to do your duty by god, put the bible away and start giving me an actual fucking reason instead of just making me and everyone else in this board increasingly exasperated by your evident blinkered and extravagent psychopathy.

Incidentally, I object in the strongest possible terms to your complaint that christians are the ones abused. This is ridiculous. More people in the world, living and dead, have been persecuted, condemned, vilified, and killed by the christians than by any other single group. I won't look up any statistics now, but I'm confident of the truth of that statement.

In fact, here's a couple of quotes, since you think so highly of them:

Christianity persecuted, tortured and burned. Like a hound it tracked the very scent of heresy. It kindled wars and nursed furious hatreds and ambitions. It sanctified...extermination and tyranny...it dreamt of infinite blisses and crowns it should be crowned with before an electrified universe and an applauding God."
George Santayana (1863-1952)

I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized by its churches, has been and still is, the principal enemy of moral progress in this world.
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

[exnihilo]

Ooh, the Santayana one is good, I've always liked that one. Anyway, must go and try to teach some people now, maybe there'll be answers 'pon my return.