Islamic Schools

[Insight]

After watching C4 news about the uproar resulting from OFSTED's report on independant Muslim schools, I'm beginning to wonder if we're now part of a society where it is impossible to constructively criticise certain groups without being labelled an "-ist".

Before anyone starts, I have found myself doing it to those criticising my own minority groups - and it annoys me. People need to learn the difference between intolerance and good old fashion debate.

[exnihilo]

D'you know I was tihnking exactly the same thing! he says "some Islamic schools are failing" cut to parents at one Islamic school saying "ours is great, this reveals an anti-Islamic agenda". Or, and here's a thought, he was making a valid general point and not actually condemning all Islamic schools for being Islamic.

Sometimes people's stupidity really vexes me.

[Rob Hearn]

No school should be affiliated with an organised religion. However, if there are catholic schools, and church of england schools, then there's no reason why there shouldn't be islamic schools.

[exnihilo]

I get the feeling you do this to wind me up! However - no school getting government money should be affiliated to a religion, not even CofE. If, however, people choose to set up a private school and send their children to it, that's their right.

Personally, I never had a faith based education, and right glad of it I am too, I think that religion should only ever be taught in the context of comparative religion. But, people do have the right to their own values etc, and to their own ways of doing things.

[Fionnlagh]

Must admit I've always hated the idea of faith based schools, from the perspective that segregation is not the way you break down barriers. Faith schools have a tendancy to build up barriers and bigotry i feel, whereas it's difficult to maintain a prejudiced viewpoint of a religious group if you're going to school with them, and they're your mates. If parents want their children to follow a specific religion, why don't THEY teach it? Or send them to sunday school or whatever the equivalent would be, in their free time?

My dislike of faith based schools comes from the prodestant catholic divide, rather than christian/muslim/sihk. There was a muslim school (private) in dundee, but it got shut down for absolutely appalling standards of education. I think it has reopened again however, and it's extreme isolation from the rest of dundee's schoolkids has caused disquiet in the past. On the other hand,the muslims who opted for my school never seemed to hae any complaints about not being accepted there. And they were fine upstanding muslims who still retained their despite not attending a faith school. I fail to see what benefit the ones attending the faith school are getting over their counterparts

[Simon Atkins]

Maybe the parents should consider this that the fact OFSTED thought that the school was bad and the parents didn’t isn’t limited to religious based schools. Maybe OFSTED is the organisation that is failing. It was never likely that a body set up to stay “they’re good” and “there crap” and has been run by Chris Woodhead will ever be a positive force in education, a positive attitude that supports is always going to be far more effective than one that throws stones from a distance. As an organisation they have been a method of trying to impose political agendas in education, not a worthwhile purpose.

Just scrap OFSTED.

[sejanus]

I know that this might well be an exceptional case, but I taught in a CofE school and it wasn't until about 4 or 5 months in that I actually realised that it was technically a 'Faith Based school'. Yes, Christianity was taught, but as a broadly 'comparative' part of the general humanities rotation; religion never came up as part of the PSHE program I had to deliver as a year 10 tutor, although moral and ethical discussions were frequent. It wasn't a private school, but a fairly bog-standard comp, although it had reasonable GCSE and A-Level pass rates (not that they really tell you anything about the quality of a school). Most of the teachers, as far as I'm aware, did not discuss their religious affiliation even in the staff room. The only pressures that impacted upon what my own department taught were those passed down from the DfES; there was certainly no pressure from the Church concerning what we could teach or not.

I say all this because before I taught in that school, I was also entirely opposed to faith based schools, as an anachronistic, even potentially dangerous, outpost of fundamentalism. Now, I'm not so sure. Witout the money that the CofE provided, there is no doubt that the educational experience of the students would have suffered (and while I admit that funding is an issue for the government, pragmatism demands that schools short of cash take it from where they can get it).

I had to conclude that the CofE's involvement was in order to help people. Not to indoctrinate them, just to help. And while there may be many faith based schools who use that as a way of promoting one view over another, I can't honestly say that condemning the whole lot of them is in any way constructive. As long as there are deprived areas, underfunded schools, then if Faith based institutions want to contribute to them - then, well, maybe it can do a lot of good.

And just one more thing. Myself, I'd rather see a faith based/funded school that brought up constructive debate and dialogue concerning religion and moral/ethical issues (as I've experienced) than one that has to have corporate presence and advertising or sponsorship, or is one of New Labour's bastardised PFI/PPP flagships where children are 'consumers' relentlessly targetted to spend and where investors demand profits. But then, maybe that's just me.

[sejanus]

[s]Simon Atkins wrote on 21:08, 17th Jan 2005:
Maybe the parents should consider this that the fact OFSTED thought that the school was bad and the parents didn’t isn’t limited to religious based schools. Maybe OFSTED is the organisation that is failing. It was never likely that a body set up to stay “they’re good” and “there crap” and has been run by Chris Woodhead will ever be a positive force in education, a positive attitude that supports is always going to be far more effective than one that throws stones from a distance. As an organisation they have been a method of trying to impose political agendas in education, not a worthwhile purpose.

Just scrap OFSTED.


Damn! I meant to reply to this in the last post. Too much wine, methinks...

Very, Very simplistic. I've never had any kind of experience with OFSTED along the lines of 'they're good/they're crap'. In fact, my experience of being inspected by OFSTED (in my teaching, anyway) was always very positive, and OFSTED people were always supportive. Colleagues of mine (all still teaching) in other schools say much the same. Yes, sometimes they get things wrong. Sometimes they appear to be arbitrary and overly subjective. But on the whole, they do a very difficult job quite well, although as with anyone doing any job whatsoever, there is room for improvement.
Indeed, I found that inspections were pretty useful as inspectors (former teachers in the main) usually had some good ideas to use in the classroom.

The main problem for OFSTED inspectors, as it is for teachers, is a system that keeps changing, thanks to political parties looking for an easy vote winner. Have some stability, teachers and inspectors will be able to get the best out of it. Scrapping OFSTED would hardly be stabilising.

Not to mention the fact that often the schools deemed to be failing are... well, failing.

[flarewearer]

I just want to ask, why do we need to teach people religion, shouldnt it be something that they approach and learn of their own accord?

[hr]..if you smell an odourless gas, it is likely to be Carbon Monoxide...

[David Bean]

Well, you could take that view, but then you might as well apply the same argument to any other non-academic or cultural pursuit.

And in any case, an understanding of the world's religions is of paramount importance to the study of, oh, geography, history, IR, anthropology, philosophy - pretty much any of the humanities, really.

[hr]"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)

[flarewearer]

[s]David Bean wrote on 01:11, 18th Jan 2005:
And in any case, an understanding of the world's religions is of paramount importance to the study of, oh, geography, history, IR, anthropology, philosophy - pretty much any of the humanities, really.


David, I agree, but the teaching of religion i experienced at (state) school was not an objective description of the major religions, rather it was colouring in pictures of Jesus, later progressing to the merits of circumcision.

And i fail to see why this has to be done in a religious school environment. Surely a school that would provide a university style method of teaching by modules (in different religions) would suit different beliefs, and prevent the polarisation of youth that single faith schools cause. It would also be more economical to the public purse in our so called multi-cultural society.

[hr]
..if you smell an odourless gas, it is likely to be Carbon Monoxide...

[Kreep]

What is the merit to circumcision? (other than if you run out of corned beef)

[Cain]

any DSMers in the house will recognise the generic porter strategy in this post.

Faith based schools cater to a niche; parents who want their children to have a faith based education.

What is more important to these parents? that they're children are educated well, or that they have a faith based education. (These are separate aims, but this does not mean that they only happen separately)

a parent must therefore be satisfied with how the school meets their needs (whatever they are) and be content with that.

any organisation that caters to a niche market must ensure that there are no other organisations that cater to the whole market and do so better than the niche does. in this case, do faith based schools offer a better education than the rest? more importantly for parents who want a faith based education for their children, do faith based schools offer better faith based education for their children, or does the competition exceed their abilities in this activity?

This is the product of revising and not being able to use something in the exam.
my brain is shot. i'm going to call it a night.

[hr]
I hold an element of surprise