Paul Bashing Thread

[Mr Comedy]

My photoshop skills just got pwn3d.
Bugger.

[Defender]

[s]Manic23 wrote on 21:59, 8th Apr 2005:
[s]Defender wrote on 21:07, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
[s]Manic23 wrote on 14:32, 8th Apr 2005:[i]
[s]Paul wrote on 14:20, 8th Apr 2005:[i]


Read carefully - I said that the Roman Catholic Church was evil. You, are a sinner.

Yes, but as a practising memeber of the Roman Catholic Church an I not 'evil' by default?

And yes, I know I'm a sinner, have been so for about 15 months. Thank you for reminding me.


One is not saved by "doing good". This is not what gets one into heaven.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Ah, yes, the call of Martin Luther, Calvin and such like. Well answer me this Paul, If I have absolute faith in God, but I just so happen to be a Serial Killer or Paedophile, do I still get in? Do you believe in Predestination? Seems to be a bit of a flawed system if you ask me.



But surely in the Roman Catholic faith you can be a serial killer or paedophile and then confess it all to your priest and get absolved/pardoned/whatever?
[/i]


As far as I am aware you must be truly repentant of your sins to receive absolution, and merely paying lip service won't cut it with the big yin in the sky
[/i]



Yep, but as far as I'm aware, the same idea of repentence applies within the Protestant faith, which I don't think you pointed out.

[EviLTwiN]

[s]Manic23 wrote on 13:41, 9th Apr 2005:
[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 03:19, 9th Apr 2005:[i]
Religion is the opium of the people - Wilde.

What more needs to be said.


Was that not Karl Marx?
[/i]



yes, you're right. I had just got home from an evening of quoting from Dorian Gray and I wasn't paying attention to what I was typing!

[exnihilo]

LP, my apologies, that remark was a little strong - I retract the "morally loathesome" part. Posting in anger is never wise.

[The Cellar Bar]

[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 16:41, 9th Apr 2005:
[s]Manic23 wrote on 13:41, 9th Apr 2005:[i]
[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 03:19, 9th Apr 2005:[i]
Religion is the opium of the people - Wilde.

What more needs to be said.


Was that not Karl Marx?
[/i]



yes, you're right. I had just got home from an evening of quoting from Dorian Gray and I wasn't paying attention to what I was typing!
[/i]



was it not also "opiate" rather than "opium"

Christ I'm turning into a pedant!! -(

[Paul]

[s]flarewearer wrote on 13:13, 9th Apr 2005:[i]
for too long you have amazed / annoyed us with your abilities at recalling the bible. But now your secret is out, we know how you do it...

Very good!

[annonymous1]

so, how do you do it?

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 12:40, 9th Apr 2005:
[s]exnihilo wrote on 05:34, 9th Apr 2005:[i]
LP, you are in danger - contrary to my previous remarks in respect of you - of becoming entirely as morally loathesome as certain others. Now may be a time to think less about the validity to argue and think more about the validity of an argument.



Exnihilo, I am shocked, truly and utterly shocked and saddened. ...[/i]


Once again LonelyPilgrim displays his perceptiveness and mature head.

... Now taking these two facts into consideration, what, exactly, Mr. Joss, do you propose we do? At least I've been trying something new, to try to calm things down around here. But I made the mistake of thinking that it was entirely Paul's fault that things were out of hand. I failed to remember that around here, a number of people are vicious, vindictive, and always spoiling for a fight. Proof that civilisation truly hasn't brought us very far. ...

This is not a new thing. We have seen that back in Old Testament times, when the receiver did not like the message, it was a case of attack, and even kill, the messenger - and things (or more accurately, people) have not changed! It is the only way they know to silence the messenger, as they are quite unable to expose the message as being untrue.

As we have now seen, it is not even the manner of presentation that is of any consequence - whether it is "in your face" or "subtle". And this same fact was observed and understood by the Lord Jesus Christ himself:

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.
But wisdom is justified of her children.
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:" - Matthew 11:15-20

It has also been said to me on a number of occasions in the past by people who call themselves (and probably are) Christians, "It is not what you say, it is the way that you say it". When I have then told that I have said that I am prepared to stand aside and learn from the way that they addressed the issues. The result has always been deafening silence.

God has blessed me with a certain personality and style. It is the direct approach - the approach which the Apostle Peter used at Pentecost, and God will use this for his own ends - converting those that are to be saved:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. ... And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." - Acts 2:36-41 & 47b

- and enraging those that will not.

Be aware, that there is one other effect that rejecting the Word of God has - It hardens the heart!, and the effect increases each time the message is rejected. that is why there is the call in Scripture: "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." - Hebrews 3:15


Further, it becomes increasingly apparent to me that most of our society has no good thing to say about someone who holds a strong opinion. We are awash in a sea of moral relativism, and socially demanded self-doubt that means that lukewarm feelings and qualifying statements are the only acceptable posture.

Once again, very perceptive, LP.


Well, I refuse to apologise, either for my belief in God or for my belief in freedom of speech, liberal democracy, or my hope for civilised behaviour. What is more, I refuse to apologize for feeling such things strongly.

Neither do you have any need to.

[Paul]

[s]annonymous1 wrote on 22:57, 9th Apr 2005:
so, how do you do it?


A King James Bible, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and, when I need a commentary, usually John Gill, (sometimes Matthew Henry,), sometimes The Westminster Confession of Faith, plus several years of experience.

[Paul]

[s]legohead wrote on 14:15, 8th Apr 2005:
hmm, Paul, why did you start a thread in order for people to bash you on it? people have criticised your methods and dog-like tenacity in other threads- so this one seems a bit superfluous, even an attempt to get attention.

As LonelyPilgrim has pointed out, it was done deliberately in order to avoid cluttering up other threads with off-topic posts. It would alos make it obvious to those who did not want to get involved what was going on, and thus make it simple for them to avoid the thread.


... fair enough if you feel duty bound to evangelise, but now it seems that you want to turn yourself into a martyr. a bit sad really.

I am called to be a martyr - in the original sense of the word! The word martyr comes form the Greek martus which means "a witness". And that is what Christians are called to be:

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." - Acts 1:8

"Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." - Isaiah 43:911

And I make no apology for quoting form the Old Testament, for there is no difference between the God of the Old and the God of the New Testaments."

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. " Hebrews 13:8

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." - Titus 3:3-7

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 13:21, 8th Apr 2005:
I certainly don't condone violence - but I can easily see why it would have come about. Jews, as a rule, want nothing more than to be left alone to go about their own lives in their own way. After thousands of years of persecution, ...

Do you not wonder why the Jews have suffered so much over thousands of years? Do you not wonder whether it is because they might be doing something wrong? Do you not wonder why Jerusalem's warfare is not accomplished?

"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." - Isaiah 40:1-3

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they have rejected the fulfillment of the last quoted sentence in John the Baptist:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." - Matthew 3:1-3

[Paul]

[s]LonelyPilgrim wrote on 14:30, 8th Apr 2005:
Paul,

Alright, so Jesus overthrew the moneylenders and what not, and bandied words. But He was without sin.

None of us can claim the same.

You are ignoring the instance I gave of Peter.

Then there is also the Apostle Paul's instructions to Titus: "This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; ... These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." - Titus 1:13 & 2:15

And to Timothy: "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." - I Timothy 5:20 and "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." - II Timothy 4:2

Edited to add this which I meant to put in: Paul's public rebuke of Peter:

"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" - Galatians 2:14

Does that satisfy you?

[Paul]

[s]Manic23 wrote on 14:32, 8th Apr 2005:
...
Ah, yes, the call of Martin Luther, Calvin and such like. Well answer me this Paul, If I have absolute faith in God, but I just so happen to be a Serial Killer or Paedophile, do I still get in?

First there is only one unforgiveable sin - "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." - Matthew 12:31

Having said that, we also have this verse: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." - Matthew 18:6

And remember the repentant theifh on the cross - He was unable to do anything to be saved. He could not go to a priest and get absolution - he was unable to do penance - he was unable to be baptised, and yet Jesus said to him:

"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:39-43

Do you believe in Predestination?

Yes - the Bible teaches it:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:28-30

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." - Ephesians 1:9-12


Seems to be a bit of a flawed system if you ask me.


"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" - Isaiah 29:16

[exnihilo]

[s]Paul wrote on 23:55, 9th Apr 2005:

Do you not wonder why the Jews have suffered so much over thousands of years? Do you not wonder whether it is because they might be doing something wrong? Do you not wonder why Jerusalem's warfare is not accomplished?

Ah, I see, so we were asking for it? We got what we deserved? I get it now, and I actually thought what you said on the other thread was offensive. People wonder that this makes me angry??

[Paul]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 15:02, 10th Apr 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 23:55, 9th Apr 2005:[i]

Do you not wonder why the Jews have suffered so much over thousands of years? Do you not wonder whether it is because they might be doing something wrong? Do you not wonder why Jerusalem's warfare is not accomplished?

Ah, I see, so we were asking for it? We got what we deserved? I get it now, and I actually thought what you said on the other thread was offensive. People wonder that this makes me angry??
[/i]

It may make you angry - but that is not answering the question of Jewish suffering.

What is your explanation for it?

And have you read "that other thread" lately: http://www.thesinner.net/messageboard-v ... read=15637

[exnihilo]

Read some history. Or keep thinking it's because we don't acknowledge Christ. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think because I don't give a damn what any ignorant, small-minded, hateful person thinks - and your posts confirm that you are all three.

[flarewearer]

Do you interest yourself in politics at all, Paul?

[hr][s]It's 106 miles to Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas and half a pack of cigarettes. It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it.[/s]
http://www.magnificentoctopus.com/

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Paul - has it ever occurred to you that really, using the bible to argue points with non-Christians as they won't recognise as it as anything more than a work of fiction or similar and ultimately, if it comes to quoting stuff people could quote Tekwars at you in retaliation and that's going to get ugly.

Not only that - you never answered my point about the Bible having been essentially the property of the Catholic Church for over a millenia. An organisation which you have stated categorically to be evil.

[Paul]

Quoting exnihilo from 09:03, 11th Apr 2005
Read some history. Or keep thinking it's because we don't acknowledge Christ. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think because I don't give a damn what any ignorant, small-minded, hateful person thinks - and your posts confirm that you are all three.

Paul's Reasoning
I wonder why the Jews have suffered so much over thousands of years?
The Tenakh, being of prime importance to the Jews might be a good place to look.

In Isaiah 40:1-3 I find:

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

This leads me to believe that the Jews are being punished double for their sins.

exnihilo's reasoning
Paul has found a good reason why the Jews are suffering so much.

I am unable to provide a better one.

Therefore, I have good reason to bash Paul - after all, it makes me feel better!

[Paul]

Quoting flarewearer from 13:25, 11th Apr 2005
Do you interest yourself in politics at all, Paul?

I do keep a watchful eye on things - and have occasionally toyed with the idea of getting actively involved.

Why do you ask?