Paul Bashing Thread

[Paul]

Quoting Prophet Tenebrae from 15:52, 11th Apr 2005
Paul - has it ever occurred to you that really, using the bible to argue points with non-Christians as they won't recognise as it as anything more than a work of fiction or similar and ultimately, if it comes to quoting stuff people could quote Tekwars at you in retaliation and that's going to get ugly.

I have answered this point several times. Perhaps the problem is that people are not reading the Bible passage quoted. I can not help that. But if you want an answer, that is where the answer lies!

It has occurred to me, but God has laid down the rules, and it is his method that I follow. He has stated that we are to preach his Word, and that will accomplish that which he intends:

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:6-11

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

And hear, once again, is the Parable of the Sower and the Seed (with explanation):

A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. - Luke 8:5-15

Not only that - you never answered my point about the Bible having been essentially the property of the Catholic Church for over a millenia. An organisation which you have stated categorically to be evil.

I will get back to this one a little later.

[Paul]

Paul looks in the torah and finds the Jews should be blessed:

Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. - Deuteronomy 28:3-8

Paul wonders how this can tie in with their suffering. He looks again:

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. - Deuteronomy 28:1-3

Paul finds that the blessings are conditional!

What happens if the Jewws do not conform?

Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. - Deuteronomy 27:15-26

And then Paul looks in the New Tewtament and finds that the Jews say the following:

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. - Matthew 27:25

Exnihilo, please will you now tell us why you think that the Jews have suffered so much?

[exnihilo]

Well, you quoted the Torah! I no longer think you're a total lunatic. Gosh, isn't that a surprise, Paul thinks the suffering of the jews over the last two thousand years is for killing Christ. What a shocker. Naturally that justifies bigotry, hatred and attempted genocide. Again, silly me. Or are you actually accusing me of all the possible transgressions listed in Deuteronomy?

And people on here "respect Paul's conviction"? Would you equally respect the commited Muslim who thinks his wife is his slave, just cos he really strongly believed it? Come on, people!

And, Paul, seriously - what the hell do you think you're doing?? Do you think you can convince me you're right like this? Do you give a damn about anyone else's opinions or feelings? Why don't you concentrate on something useful instead of spreading your hatred?

[exnihilo]

Quoting Paul from 22:15, 11th Apr 2005

Quoting exnihilo from 09:03, 11th Apr 2005
Read some history. Or keep thinking it's because we don't acknowledge Christ. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think because I don't give a damn what any ignorant, small-minded, hateful person thinks - and your posts confirm that you are all three.

Paul's Reasoning
I wonder why the Jews have suffered so much over thousands of years?
The Tenakh, being of prime importance to the Jews might be a good place to look.

In Isaiah 40:1-3 I find:

Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

This leads me to believe that the Jews are being punished double for their sins.

exnihilo's reasoning
Paul has found a good reason why the Jews are suffering so much.

I am unable to provide a better one.

Therefore, I have good reason to bash Paul - after all, it makes me feel better!

And I just saw this post - and people wondered that I got angry and insulted you? How dare you characterise my reasoning in such a sanctimonious and smarmy fashion. How can you expect me to be anything other than angry and you applauding the persecution of millions?

You want a better reason the Jews have suffered? Because religious zealots like you think that killing a man for his beliefs is just giving God's justice a little nudge. I presume you think the Holocaust didn't go far enough - after all, Jews deserved double.

I do not get angry with you, or "bash" you to feel better. Though I will admit it's taking all my restraint right now not to unleash a torrent of abuse at you. What the hell are you trying to achieve???

[Paul]

Quoting exnihilo from 22:51, 11th Apr 2005
And, Paul, seriously - what the hell do you think you're doing?? Do you think you can convince me you're right like this? Do you give a damn about anyone else's opinions or feelings? Why don't you concentrate on something useful instead of spreading your hatred?

I am not spreading hatred at all! I am merely trying to provoke debate about the subject of Jewish Suffering - and I have read papers on it. How is that others can write on the subject, but I can't?

There is no way that I am promoting "Jew-bashing" - unlike others who promote and participate in "Christian-bashing". I am merely stating the facts according to Scripture.

When the Jews obey God, they are blessed - and when they do not, they are cursed!

The receive double punishment for their sins becuase God chose them to be a peculiar people unto him:

And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. - Exodus 19:3-6

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee. - Deuteronomy 7:6-16

[Paul]

Quoting exnihilo from 22:56, 11th Apr 2005

And I just saw this post - and people wondered that I got angry and insulted you? How dare you characterise my reasoning in such a sanctimonious and smarmy fashion. How can you expect me to be anything other than angry and you applauding the persecution of millions?

You want a better reason the Jews have suffered? Because religious zealots like you think that killing a man for his beliefs is just giving God's justice a little nudge. I presume you think the Holocaust didn't go far enough - after all, Jews deserved double.

I am fully aware that the Bible tells us that thosw who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those that curse the Jews will be cursed.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. - Genesis 12:3

Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee. - Genesis 27:29

Nowhere have I called for people to come out and persecute the Jews.

I repeat, I am merely asking you to consider why it is that the Jews have suffered so much!

[exnihilo]

Look, forget it. Lambast me all you want for not joining your "debate" on Jewish suffering. But I have no intention of reading through your drivel, listing as reasons why Jews suffered in the past quotations from a book that has been used for centuries to justify causing most of that suffering.

I've said all I have to say - the Jews have been persecuted throughout history because it suited Christians so to do, largely because of the Catholic church. You preach a form of Christianity I don't recognise - think as I do or burn in hell. You won't convince me you're right and I will not allow you to bait me further with your ridiculous notions on this subject.

Write what you like. If you earnestly believe that Jews have been persecuted because the book of Matthew says we should have been, fine.

[exnihilo]

Nowhere have I called for people to come out and persecute the Jews.

I repeat, I am merely asking you to consider why it is that the Jews have suffered so much!

You've asked that four times now, you've ignored every answer. What's the point? Do you really think I've never thought about it? or is it just that you don't like the answer I'm giving?

Are you waiting for me to say "OK, Paul, you're right, the Jews have suffered because we don't think exactly like you. Give me a Bible and show me to your church, I'm a new man. Hallelujah, praise Jesus!" because I'm not going to.

[LonelyPilgrim]

1. If Paul thought the Holocaust was bad, or 'didn't go far enough' why would he condemn the Catholic church for it's supposed involvement?

2. So far as I am aware, Paul hasn't said anything advocating violence or discrimination.

3. He has told pretty much EVERYONE here, not just Jews, that we're all damned to Hell.

4. Most of us don't really care, because we know that Paul saying it doesn't make it so. So, I have to wonder when people get pissed off over this if it isn't because a) they think Paul has some supernatural power to judge, or b) they don't themselves worry it might be true and therefore get uncomfortable.

5. In the above paragraph, a) is stupid, and b) isn't Paul's problem.

6. The moment it's brought to my attention that Paul says, "Don't serve Catholics in restaurants" or "Jews sit at the back of the bus" I'll join all of you in calling him a racist bigot. Until then, I just think he's annoying and has a tactless lack of social grace.

7. If he has made comments advocating violence or discrimination IN THIS WORLD than I must have missed them, and someone should point me to them.

8. Oh, and apologies for my absence from thsi discussion, I should be joining back in full force in a day or so.

[hr]

I sing of arms, and the man...

[exnihilo]

No, you're right, he's not advocated violence. He's just said the Jews were asking for it. If that's ok with everyone, then fine. Whatever.

I'd be interested to see what the response would be if he were saying that the handicapped deserved the gas chamber, though.

[Paul]

Just for the record:

I am part-Jewish and lost an uncle in the concentration camps.

A distant relative is also commemorated in Yad Vashem.

Just thought you might want to know.

[Cain]

See also: I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black.

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[exnihilo]

Thanks, Cain, saved me the effort on that one.

[flarewearer]

I don't mind being told I'm going to hell. Knowing I'm not Christian and don't believe in that, I know I'm not going.

[hr]

[s]It's 106 miles to Chicago. We've got a full tank of gas and half a pack of cigarettes. It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it.[/s]
http://www.magnificentoctopus.com/

[Al]

I don't understand why Paul seems to be blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus. Jesus was executed in a Roman territory. His killers used the Roman, rather than Jewish, form of execution. The orders for his death were given by a Roman governor. I don't know why but I am beginning to suspect that the Romans may have been involved.

[hr]

Life is too important to be taken seriously.

[Zombie Sheep]

This thread seems to have lost all purpose, I'd like to point out.

[hr]

http://www.zombiesheep.name

[Guest]

... and no you will never suceed in bringing me round to your way of thinking, so don't even start thinking about trying to.

That was my position also, at one time.


What changed your mind, how come you converted in the end? I am genuinely interested in knowing. I'm sure though, that it wasn't via an internet message board. Another question - if you are not a student at the university - why are you so interested in what goes on on these message boards? Do you have connections at St Andrews, or have you just taken a chance interest in the souls of the students here?
Personally, I find your extremism kind of hard to accept. I was brought up as a catholic, and for me, religion should be based on love - love of God and love of everyone else. It seems to be that you focus far less on this than on fear. Fear of judgement day and an eternity in hell. First of all, fear of what might happen is not a good reason to take up a faith, it's a somewhat selfish and negative one. Blaming the spread of AIDS on sin and using it as proof of the existance of God seems just very wrong to me. Religion being imposed on others only causes war and conflict . ..which for me contradicts everything that religion should be.

[tintin]

Quoting Paul from 14:12, 8th Apr 2005

And now, I must get back to work!

Thank God for that.

[hr]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mat_salleh

[Prophet Tenebrae]

I think you forgot to put in the 15 pages of relevant Bible quoting, tintin.

[hr]

IMAGE:www.btinternet.com/~brother.war/white10-2.gif

[exnihilo]

Or you clicked on the link for this thread and replied to what you thought was the last post, but which was in fact the last post on the first page (it is).

Please can we go to the END of a thread when we select one with multiple pages? The current end of first page default is moronic.