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Re:

Postby ezra on Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:32 pm

That you're a PhD student of philopshy and can sit there and say there are definitve moral and ethical absolutes which are both absolute and immutable from now until forever beggars belief.


Really? In that case, I'd guess it'd be a massive shock to your system if you were to learn that there is a rather large number of contemporary philosophers - meta-ethicists, straight ethicists, and political philosophers - who also think that there are 'moral and ethical absolutes' (I assume you mean 'true, non-relative, moral principles', or something like that). The AHRC (and the department here, come to think of it) found my proposal sufficiently reasonable; I'm not sure why you're so sure that there aren't any ethical truths out there. Anyway . . .

My apologies to everyone for hijacking this thread; I'll stop banging on about this. Tenebrae, if you want to discuss it further, I'm happy to open a new thread. In fact, if you'd care to spend half an hour in the pub with me discussing this, I'd bet you a round of drinks that I can convince you that my point of view is, at least, plausible.
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Re:

Postby Guest on Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:27 pm

Quoting Ben Reilly from 18:10, 25th Oct 2005

They aren't other peoples' ethics- they are our ethics- the ethics of the university community. That is the thing about Ethical Investment- it is not the ethics of any random group of people- it is the ethics of us.



The only 'ethics' of the whole community are laws. The fact is that arms companies, big pharma, tobacco, petro-chemicals etc are all lawful activities. The majority of society does not oppose their activities, because if they did laws would be past against them.

We all agree that murder, rape, theft, assualt etc are bad - hence society argrees punishments for those that commit such acts. The ethical invesment protest industry doesn't have the support of the people to ban companies they don't like so instead they just harrase institutions.

If you don't like companies, don't buy their stuff, but stop interfering with the rest of us.
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Re:

Postby Guest on Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:30 pm

Quoting Ben Reilly from 18:10, 25th Oct 2005

They aren't other peoples' ethics- they are our ethics- the ethics of the university community. That is the thing about Ethical Investment- it is not the ethics of any random group of people- it is the ethics of us.



The only 'ethics' of the whole community are laws. The fact is that arms companies, big pharma, tobacco, petro-chemicals etc are all lawful activities. The majority of society does not oppose their activities, because if they did laws would be past against them.

We all agree that murder, rape, theft, assualt etc are bad - hence society argrees punishments for those that commit such acts. The ethical invesment protest industry doesn't have the support of the people to ban companies they don't like so instead they just harrase institutions.

If you don't like companies, don't buy their stuff, but stop interfering with the rest of us.
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Re:

Postby suigeneris on Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting ezra from 14:36, 26th Oct 2005

You cannot be serious. Would it have been 'sheer arrogance' to assume that e.g. Hitler should have loved his neighbours, rather than killing them? Is it 'sheer arrogance' to assume that people should do what is right?

It isn't 'sheer arrogance' to assume that people should like it, either. Slightly optimistic, perhaps, but not arrogant. Come to think of it, it doesn't matter one iota whether people like it or not, they're still bound by the constraints of morality.


You really must forgive my incredulity, and believe that I'm entirely serious. Your argument falls apart under its weight when you use an example such as the above to demonstrate the existence of ethical absolutes. It may well be the case that we all agree Hitler committed a great many crimes, but all of them were entirely consistent with his own ethical code. Likewise, our decision to go to war with Nazi Germany was based entirely upon the prevailing situation in Europe at the time. The assumption that the same code of ethics bound our leaders and the Nazis is risible, each followed their own judgment.

Far be it from me to criticise your shining ethical Gold Standard, perhaps I simply fail to understand the musings of an embiggened mind. Barring some standard sent from the Divine, or some transcendental inspiration, how can you maintain that human ethics are either constrained by or tendent to a universal standard.

I appreciate that philosophy is typically more speculative than observant, but you surely cannot be so blinkered as to fail to notice how hugely divergent the world around you is from the notion you suggest. Perhaps many "professional meta-ethicists" agree that there are ethical absolutes, but all that can be said from that is that a number of these august persons agree with each other.

Quoting ezra from 14:36, 26th Oct 2005
I have yet to encounter any good reason to think that ethical relativism is true; even if it were true, there would be no reason to suspend our moral judgement. We could - and should - still assert that certain acts are right, that others are wrong, etc. But again, that's a separate debate. If you want to enter into it, I'm more than happy to.


Ethical relativism is necessarily true for several logical reasons and one huge practical one. The fact that the ethical codes of different societies (and even those employed within our own through changing times) exhibit variation is indicative, at least, that broader issues than moral navel-gazing have an impact on the ethics that develop within any given group. That (in the absence of religious conversions) change within established moral codes occurs gradually is further evidence that morality depends upon prevailing societal mores and fashions.

I wonder if your doctrine of ethical absolutism would apply to the Romans or the Greeks, or - in our own times - to populations around the world who have not been shaped by a western cultural outlook.

In practical terms, you have a bit of a mountain to climb. If there is a universal code of morality to which all people should subscribe, then if everyone were ethical, everyone would hold the same values. Plainly, everyone does not. Ergo, a significant proportion of the population of our planet are, eo ipso, fundamentally immoral. A very narrow interpretation, don't you think?

Finally, best is only a philosophically loaded word to argumentative philosophers or people directly addressing moral quality. Sometimes (and in fact usually), it suggests simply the optimal course of action given a set condition.

Vale.
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Re:

Postby ezra on Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:26 am

Ok, let's run through a few brief points. Again, I'd much rather do this over a pint. I'll focus on relativism. So:

1.
It may well be the case that we all agree Hitler committed a great many crimes, but all of them were entirely consistent with his own ethical code . . The assumption that the same code of ethics bound our leaders and the Nazis is risible, each followed their own judgment.


Two distinctions: firstly, between consistency and truth; secondly, between motivation and truth.

i. On the first, it is trivially true that there can be two equally consistent, but mutually exclusive (and mutually exhaustive of the territory), sets of beliefs. This being so, one of them must be wrong. Noting that Hitler's ethical code was consistent (which I don't think it was, but let's assume it for the sake of argument) doesn't entail anything about its truth.
ii. On the second, please notice that it is one thing to be motivated by a set of beliefs, and another thing altogether for those beliefs to be true. Take, for instance, the laws of logic, or mathematics. P & 'p implies q', taken together, imply that q. If you 'follow your own judgement' when you're engaging in a piece of deductive reasoning, and you happen to be irrational, then sure - you're following your own judgement, but you are still bound by the laws. That's why we can say that people make mistakes in reasoning - because there's a standard against which we can appraise their action or reasoning, regardless of what their motivations were.

2.
Barring some standard sent from the Divine, or some transcendental inspiration, how can you maintain that human ethics are either constrained by or tendent to a universal standard.


In short, because human ethics result from our status as dependent, rational animals. That's what provides the universal standard - since all people, minimally, fulfil this criterion - and it's also what entails that ethics is categorical, i.e. binding on all people. But that's a thesis-length argument; I'm not going to go into detail. At least a pint-length argument, anyway.

3.
you surely cannot be so blinkered as to fail to notice how hugely divergent the world around you is from the notion you suggest


What notion do I suggest? I only invoked professional philosophers in order to discredit the suggestion that moral realism / constructivism is a completely ridiculous position. I don't think it shows anything other than this.

4. If ethical relativism is necessarily true, it's not obviously so. Both of the 'arguments' which you adduced conflate [again] what people believe, with what is true. Sure, different people hold different beliefs; sure, I'm willing to grant that the reason people hold most of their beliefs is, first and foremost, because that's what they've been taught [or something similar]. But consider an analogy with science: most of the scientific beliefs which I hold, I hold because I've read something in a book, or been taught stuff in school, etc. Scientific codes [as it were] of different societies exhibit variation. So yes, scientific beliefs may depend, largely, on prevailing societal views. It doesn't mean that my scientific beliefs are false, and it certainly doesn't mean that all scientific beliefs are equally valid. For instance: plenty of people, up until relatively recently, thought that the Earth was flat, the Sun went around the Earth, etc. Witch doctors in Africa think that you can cure diseases with the ashes of burnt skulls. This doesn't mean that 'scientific relativism' is true; the flat-earthers were wrong, and we're most likely right.

The 'argument from cultural relativism' [the one which starts by noting that different cultures have different ethical codes] is discussed in Mackie's 'Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong', and has a more detailed exposition in Williams' 'Ethics & The Limits of Philosophy'. It has also been widely discussed; in, for instance, Darwall, Railton, & Gibbard [eds] 'Moral Discourse and Moral Practice'. It certainly doesn't prove anything; it's doesn't show that ethical relativism is necessarily true (and how can something be necessarily true for a practical reason, anyway?). Sure, some professional meta-ethicists are relativists, but it's nowhere near as obviously true as you seem to think.

And yes, ex hypothesi, a significant proportion of the planet is pretty immoral. Is that so surprising? Maybe you haven't noticed, but even in Britain (which is pretty tolerant and liberal as far as the world's population goes) there's a high incidence of racism and homophobia, coupled with a pretty abject lack of charity. Plus there's war, rape, murder, sexism, domestic abuse, and so on, and so forth. But I think that the most widespread form of immorality consists of sitting around, playing golf, or drinking Burgundy, while children elsewhere die - preventably - from cholera, dysentry, etc.

note: I never claimed to be moral

like Juvenal said, difficilam est satiram non scribere.
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Re:

Postby suigeneris on Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:52 am

Suffice to say that I find it highly implausible that you, me or anyone else contemplating these questions can arrive at a fundamental moral maxim which is absolutely true for every given set of circumstances. There are always shades of gray, the only way to eliminate them is to ignore them entirely and if you do that then your reasoning is abjectly flawed.

And yes, people are capable of rational deductive thought, but not everyone demonstrates it through their actions. If you argue that people can arrive at morality through rational consideration then take into account that culture, upbringing and education lend a distinct colour to the manner in which we both think and perceive the world. Applying rational thought to issues of morality makes conclusions no more robust, since perfectly rational people are capable of reaching vastly different answers to similar questions.

It sort of smacks of the 1890's patent officer resigning since he thought that everything that ould be was and what was current would remain immutable for all time. Your notion of ethics and sense of morality are products of the environment and society in which you were raised, and in time when that changes new people will claim that their new ethical system is the best representation of moral truth.

People have claimed since antiquity that there is a universal morality inherent to us, and other people have disagreed. The certitude of folks back then wasn't ultimately defeated by people (or common sense) commenting on the disparity of that view with every objective view of the world (though it should have been) but rather by a new and more vociferous set claiming to espouse a new and better set of moral axioms.

For there to be absolute moral truths, every rational person should be able to derive them through simple application of thought. That apparently rational people are doing just that right here and now and coming to very different conclusions suggests that there aren't. That isn't a comment on how people actually behave, but rather their ability to perceive some fundamental moral rules we can all agree on. Even the most heinous acts today (sexual abuse of a child for instance) were considered just fine in times gone by, and they were just as sure of their moral pre-eminence back then. No right thinking person in our society would endorse such today, but that's because our views of things have changed greatly since then. You can choose to think it makes us better, or closer to a state of moral and ethical truth, but it just makes our morals different.

In time, they'll change again, though hopefully not in that particular area of thought, and so on and on and on until human society itself stops evolving.

On a simpler level, for something to be absolutely ethically good and true, you'd have to come up with a definition of good that everyone could agree on - good for the one, the many, society, species? What?

I like Moore's take on that and also the danger inherent in strict application of logical rules to ethical problems (as with your ps and qs):

"That ‘pleased’ does not mean ‘having the sensation of red,’ or anything else whatever, does not prevent us from understanding what it does mean. It is enough for us to know that ‘pleased’ does mean ‘having the sensation of pleasure,’ and though pleasure is absolutely indefinable, though pleasure is pleasure and nothing else whatever, yet we feel no difficulty in saying that we are pleased. The reason is, of course, that when I say ‘I am pleased,’ I do not mean that ‘I’ am the same thing as ‘having pleasure.’ And similarly no difficulty need be found in my saying that ‘pleasure is good’ and yet not meaning that ‘pleasure’ is the same thing as ‘good,’ that pleasure means good, and that good means pleasure. If I were to imagine that when I said ‘I am pleased,’ I meant that I was exactly the same thing as ‘pleased,’ I should not indeed call that a naturalistic fallacy, although it would be the same fallacy as I have called naturalistic with reference to Ethics."
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Re:

Postby ezra on Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:23 am

i. What do you mean by 'shades of grey'? If you mean that a moral maxim (you *must* mean 'principle') necessarily has exceptions, then I don't agree. Here are some counter-examples:

- torturing innocents for fun is always wrong
- the causing of non-sadistic pleasure is always a reason to do it
- justice is a virtue

etc. I don't know how interesting or important for our moral thought these things are, though.

Alternatively, you might admit that foundational moral principles have ceteris paribus clauses, such as:

- ceteris paribus, murder is wrong
- ceteris paribus, lying is wrong

etc.

Or, perhaps, the foundational moral principle might be something like:

- act only on that maxim through which you can at the same time will that it become universal law

I'm not proposing to adjudicate between these; I quite like the third option, though.

ii.
Your notion of ethics and sense of morality are products of the environment and society in which you were raised


Yes - likewise my notion of science. The societal element (again) doesn't mean that my beliefs are false. Indoctrination by society might well be a very reliable means, in *some* cases, of coming to acquire true beliefs about the world.

iii.
For there to be absolute moral truths, every rational person should be able to derive them through simple application of thought


This is straightforwardly false. Why think that morality has got to be derived a priori, anyway? People need a decent level of factual, as well as moral, education, in order to make good moral judgements. For instance, people used to justify racial discrimination by citing their belief that black people [for instance] were racially inferior; stupider, less self-controlled, whatever. Remove the false belief, and you remove the justification. Do this, and you effect change in people's moral sentiments, also.

ditto
for something to be absolutely ethically good and true, you'd have to come up with a definition of good that everyone could agree on
- this is just wrong. Quantum physics might well provide a true model of the universe, but it needn't be universally agreed on in order to be true.

What I'm still baffled by is this: you note that different people (at different times, or places) have different moral systems. You seem to think that this means that there is no notion of progress in ethics to be had. But why think this? I've already cited the 'science' analogy; different people at different times believe different things, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as scientific progress.

Incidentally,Even an ethical relativist can still allow for a notion of progress in ethics [I'm thinking of Blackburn's 'Ruling Passions'].

postscript: I don't understand what relevance the Moore quotation has. The example I gave (p & (p->q) -> q) was simply an example of a law which people are bound by, even if they don't follow it, or use their own system, etc.
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Re:

Postby ezra on Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:24 am

deleted double post (this problem will be fixed in version 6 - coming soon to an internet near you!)
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Re:

Postby Saki on Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:06 pm

I don't think moral absolutism is really the issue when it comes to ethical investment. What ethical investment (when it comes to an institution anyway) is about is the members of the institution collectively deciding on their ethical criteria for investment. The referendum on ethical investment quite clearly proved that those who would like investment to be purely profit-driven are in the extreme minority of students at St. Andrews. Having proven that, it is up to the student union to decide on the particular criteria that they wish to apply. Those who still insist that investment should be purely profit-driven are invited to run a campaign for and in another referendum on the subject - if they can convince the student population at large, then good for them.
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Re:

Postby Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:16 pm

Quoting Saki from 19:06, 27th Oct 2005
I don't think moral absolutism is really the issue when it comes to ethical investment. What ethical investment (when it comes to an institution anyway) is about is the members of the institution collectively deciding on their ethical criteria for investment. The referendum on ethical investment quite clearly proved that those who would like investment to be purely profit-driven are in the extreme minority of students at St. Andrews. Having proven that, it is up to the student union to decide on the particular criteria that they wish to apply. Those who still insist that investment should be purely profit-driven are invited to run a campaign for and in another referendum on the subject - if they can convince the student population at large, then good for them.


Not so much the Students' Association deciding what the ethics are, but that the student body, through voting for the members of the SRC, deciding. That is after all what democracy is about, isn't it?

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Re:

Postby ezra on Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:51 pm

mmm, democracy: rule by stupidity and persiflage
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Re:

Postby Saki on Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:27 pm

Quoting Ben Reilly from 19:16, 27th Oct 2005
Quoting Saki from 19:06, 27th Oct 2005
I don't think moral absolutism is really the issue when it comes to ethical investment. What ethical investment (when it comes to an institution anyway) is about is the members of the institution collectively deciding on their ethical criteria for investment. The referendum on ethical investment quite clearly proved that those who would like investment to be purely profit-driven are in the extreme minority of students at St. Andrews. Having proven that, it is up to the student union to decide on the particular criteria that they wish to apply. Those who still insist that investment should be purely profit-driven are invited to run a campaign for and in another referendum on the subject - if they can convince the student population at large, then good for them.


Not so much the Students' Association deciding what the ethics are, but that the student body, through voting for the members of the SRC, deciding. That is after all what democracy is about, isn't it?

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I was using short-hand. What I would prefer would be for the Student Association, in a committee, to thrash out what ethical guidelines they saw fit to use and for those specific guidelines to be published before SRC elections, enabling students to take them into consideration when voting because (clearly) some candidates will agree with them and some won't.

In any case, my main point remains intact: if you think ethics have no place in the university's investment policy, you've been heavily out-voted and need to make an effort to change that rather than whinge about how you're so "right" and "ethical" because you have the best interests of the university at heart.
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Re:

Postby Ben Reilly on Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:01 am

I would have thought questions like that would be perfect for hecklings. It is for things like that they are designed.

Or an independent group could ask all the same questions to the candidates and publish the answers received. So long as all the candidates are given the same opportunity to answer and everybody is treated the same, it wouldn't be campaigning.

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Re:

Postby Duggeh on Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:35 am

Farp.

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Re:

Postby DrAlex on Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting Ben Reilly from 02:01, 28th Oct 2005
So long as all the candidates are given the same opportunity to answer and everybody is treated the same, it wouldn't be campaigning.


Kind of like The Saint.

Oh, wait...

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20% ?

Postby Guest on Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:15 pm

Quoting Saki from 20:27, 27th Oct 2005
In any case, my main point remains intact: if you think ethics have no place in the university's investment policy, you've been heavily out-voted and need to make an effort to change that rather than whinge about how you're so "right" and "ethical" because you have the best interests of the university at heart.


Oh please, the referendum was only just quorate and there was (in an attempt to stop the vote becoming quorate) a boycott of voting or any serious campaign by the liberty club (the then most organised of all of right-wing groups on campus)

If only a bit more than 1,000 students gave a shit about ethical investment so much that they were prepared to spend 15 seconds voting for it, i'd hardly say that there was much evidence that the student body actually gave a damn...

Put this is perspective - how many students a month take drugs, which have the worst impact in producing countries on people and societies in terms of violence and political instability of almost any product?

Hardly very ethical?

Anyway, the court is in charge of the investments and hopefully will continue to effectively ignore claims to tell them what to do...
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Re:

Postby ezra on Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:41 pm

Q.
how many students a month take drugs, which have the worst impact in producing countries on people and societies in terms of violence and political instability of almost any product?


A. not that many

ii. the most popular drug - weed - tends to be homegrown. certainly in bristol all of the available spliff came from hydroponics in someone's attic.
iii. there are two drugs in particular which have a huge negative impact on the producing countries in terms of violence and political instability, namely heroin (or opium) and coke. no student that I've known has ever taken smack (well, one or two. but they were exceptional cases); opium is generally unavailable, and coke is too expensive for the average student. [on second thoughts, I'm sure there are enough rich kids here to afford a coke habit; roll on the power of natural selection, I say.]

Put this into perspective: how many students spend vast amounts of money each year on booze and give little, if any, to charity? How many students a month buy products which aren't fairly traded (particularly, coffee, chocolate, tea)? In terms of negative impact on the world, these things massively outweigh effect of the relatively small number of students who hoover up a couple of lines on a saturday night.

The thing that really pisses me off about this University is that there are a large number of people who are comfortably well-off, and just don't give a shit about anyone else - not even to the extent that they'd be willing to ask the University to move its investments into line with its ethical values.

Try Peter Unger: 'Living High and Letting Die' for a terse, effective, argument for the demandingness of morality.

Apathy is an explanation for inaction, not a justification for it. Damnit. I'm off to vote for Simon Pepper.
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Re:

Postby Ben Reilly on Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:51 pm

Quoting from 19:35, 25th Oct 2005
Quoting Ben Reilly from 18:10, 25th Oct 2005

They aren't other peoples' ethics- they are our ethics- the ethics of the university community. That is the thing about Ethical Investment- it is not the ethics of any random group of people- it is the ethics of us.



The only 'ethics' of the whole community are laws. The fact is that arms companies, big pharma, tobacco, petro-chemicals etc are all lawful activities. The majority of society does not oppose their activities, because if they did laws would be past against them.

We all agree that murder, rape, theft, assualt etc are bad - hence society argrees punishments for those that commit such acts. The ethical invesment protest industry doesn't have the support of the people to ban companies they don't like so instead they just harrase institutions.

If you don't like companies, don't buy their stuff, but stop interfering with the rest of us.


Can I just clarify something?

If the only ethics of the whole community are laws, then would you have no objection to a Court Resolution that said the University would not invest in arms companies?

Court Resolutions are, after all, the Laws of the University Community (all capitals intentional).

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Re:

Postby Mr Comedy on Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:47 pm

I would heartily reccomend that the University invests in arms companies if that yields a significant profit. I don't like ethical investment, or fair trade, because both are flawed premises.
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Re:

Postby Iveagh on Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:50 pm

When will the results actually be announced?

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