Arts Students!

[Webbie]

As the new Arts faculty Rep on the SRC, I should really be canvassing opinion on what Arts students think of the faculty and the university in general I suppose.

Please feel free to give me a shout, my e-mail is arw8, I would love to hear your views.

May your life be filled with tranquility and I wish happiness and good fortune upon you.

Alex Webster
SRC member for the Arts Faculty

Peace

[The Dude]

Am I the only one who gets annoyed with the discrepancies over citation. The University is making a major push right now to define and combat plagiarism yet they have not eliminated any of the confusion over how to sight sources. In my experience this can vary between departments and even tutors. Some of my tutors have said anything as long as it is consistent. Others specify which one (which can be obscure). Even others will say anything but a certain style. I think that what the university needs right now is a standardized writing style book which encompasses all departments. After all even scientists have to do some academic research (I am told). I know there might be some sensitivity depending on the subject (historical citation vs. that used on a biology lab) but if it all could be written down so everybody knows the rules that would go a long way in eliminating the confusion that is created around essay times. Am I the only one who has this problem?

[ezra]

i. 'cite', not 'sight'

ii. generally, anything as long as it is consistent will be acceptable. that was the official guideline when I was an undergrad, at any rate. if you're particularly concerned, pick a leading journal in your area and copy the style therein.

iii. more specifically, what people are looking for is a) acknowledgement of ideas which aren't yours (minimally, author; ideally, author, book, date), and b) explicit references for any prose which isn't yours

For what it's worth, I give a complete bibliography at the end of each paper, ordered alphabetically; Author [+ initials], Date, Title, Publisher; references in the text are in footnotes, e.g. fn1: O'Hara 1993, and with page references where possible, e.g. fn1: O'Hara 1993:45-48. Where you're referencing more than one publication of the author from the same year, you order dates with letters, so: O'Hara 1993a, O'Hara 1993b, etc.

edit: the MHRA style guide is pretty comprehensive and also useful. it can be found at:

http://www.mhra.org.uk/Publications/Boo ... uideV1.pdf

might also be worth checking the library webpages: I suspect that the university may have idiosyncratic guidelines for theses etc. but you can't go much wrong with MHRA.

[Grandpa]

Yes, although ezra's ideas are really very good, she misses the point a touch...

The point is that I, like ''the dude'' had the same problem with tutors all through 1st year...Different tutors expecting different standards of citation...none of them agreeing and thus you are marked down in one subject for handing in something that is perfectly acceptable in another.

I'll re-iterate for those who think we might bypass a solution via offering advice.

The University needs to offer a standardised guide book/sheet/MHRA type handbook where the student can see, once and for all, how the university expects us to cite our findings. After all, it's the university that will award a degree - not a tutor who thinks his/her preffered style of citation is the only acceptable version.

However, albeit a pertinant problem, there are tutors out there who do not demand a certain style and do accept anything as long as it is logical and consistent. I implore those who do accept this non-specific logical consistency in citation to carry on with it.

I would like the university to offer a guide, such as that found in the IR module handbook for second yr modules:

quoting from http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/intrel/courses/ir-2003%20booklet%202005-6.htm

Citation: Footnotes, Endnotes and Bibliographies

Footnotes or endnotes are an essential device to show the assessor where and how you acquired the elements of your argument and the evidence that you have used to support it. They protect you from the accusation of plagiarism – representing the products of someone else’s research as your own – which when discovered will be treated very seriously by the University.

All direct quotes must be properly and fully referenced. This always includes giving the number of the page from which the quotation is taken. Summaries of author’s arguments must also be referenced, again including page numbers. Full references should b given whenever you use statistical or historical evidence taken from a text.

Direct quotations should not be too long – 3 or 4 lines should be a maximum, and it is advisable to avoid using one source repeatedly in an essay.

There are three alternative ways to document sources, and all are acceptable forms of citation for essays:

1. Footnotes

Footnotes are included at the bottom of each page, and their content refers to text included on that page. They are numbered consecutively throughout the text. Most word-processing packages in current use (MS Word, for example, or WordPerfect) will allow the insertion of footnotes into the text, and automatically locate them, in sequence, on the correct page.

Every time a new citation is introduced into your footnotes a full reference must be given. You must give the author, title of book, place of publication, publisher and date of publication, and the page reference. For example:

Jack Donnelly, Realism and International Relations (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2000), p. 1.

For journal articles, the form should be as follows:

D. A. Welch, ‘Why International Relations theorists should stop reading Thucydides’, Review of International Studies vol. 29, no. 3 (July 2003), p. 305.

For chapters in edited books:

Ole Waever, ‘Europe’s Three Empires’, in R. Fawn & J. Larkins (eds.), International Society after the Cold War (Basingstoke: Macmillan, 1996), p. 86.

Subsequent citations should take the form of an abbreviated form of the original, eg. Donnelly, Realism, p. 45 or Welch, ‘Why’, p. 107.

If the citation follows immediately after the original, however, you can merely write the Latin word ‘Ibid’, followed by the page number.

At the end of the essay, a bibliography must be included listing the full references, in alphabetical order, of each text cited in the footnotes.

2. Endnotes

Endnotes, like footnotes, are numbered consecutively throughout the text. They are, however, not included on each page in turn, but are instead gathered at the end of the essay, before the bibliography. Also like footnotes, most modern word-processing packages facilitate the use of endnotes.

Endnotes should take the form sketched above for footnotes.

At the end of the essay, a bibliography must be included listing the full references, in alphabetical order, of each text cited in the footnotes.

3. Harvard notation

In the Harvard system an abbreviated note is inserted, in brackets, into the text. Full publication details of every source thus cited are included in a bibliography at the end of the essay.

Citations are made as follows: at the end of a sentence in which a reference in made to a text, the author’s name, the date of publication, and the page number is included in brackets. An example might be (Welch 2003, 305) for the imaginary article referred to above. At the end of the essay a full bibliography must be provided, with publications listed in the form of:

D. A. Welch (2003) ‘Why International Relations theorists should stop reading Thucydides’, Review of International Studies 29:3, 301-320.

However good this is (which it is...and that's why I've copied it to here), it still does not offer a full low-down of accepted citation and bibliography styles.

I prefer the Harvard notation myself, but there are others out there (isn't there one called 'cambridge' notation?? I forget) but if the university gave each and every student either a handbook or, I suggest a university webpage which listed all this stuff, everyone's life would be made easier - and I dare say fairer - for what is acceptable in one arts subject should very well be acceptable in another. If not, the university has some answers it needs to give.

I rest my case, your Honour.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[ezra]

Hang on a second:

i. Tutors shouldn't mark you down for using, for instance, Harvard notation.

I quote:

"St Andrews University has no standard requirement for the format or placing of footnotes and bibliographies" [from the PG handbook]

So if they mark you down for using correct, but 'non-preferred' notation, threaten to complain. If they don't change the mark, then complain.

ii. Harvard notation is pretty neat. In fact, it seems to be the preferred form of notation even in Cambridge.

iii. Information on proper referencing is available, if people would bother to look for it.

iv. So the problem isn't that there's not a code of practice on this - the University explicitly states that it has no standard requirements. The problem is that tutors are under the misapprehension that it's something they can mark students down for.

Of course, if the referencing is wildly inappropriate, inconsistent, or absent, I can understand marking someone down.

You see, I still don't think I've 'missed the point'.

[Grandpa]

Actually, I think we're both far too interested in our own opinions on it.

I think what we're getting at is the confusion amongst students.

Forget the tutors' marking, but remember what was said above by ''the dude'':

Some of my tutors have said anything as long as it is consistent. Others specify which one (which can be obscure). Even others will say anything but a certain style.

So, what's his point? Is it not that maybe we should have

standard requirements

in order that confusion amongst students is minimised?

Which is more desireable?:-

1) Students being clear about what is required. I.e.: All students in full knowledge of what must be done in order to not be accused of plagiarism, or...

2) Students not clear about what is required, thus in danger of plagiarising?

Surely this is in both the university's and the stuidents' interests? It would further minimise any cases of plagiarism, and would thus save the university time in dealing with apparent plagiarisms. Saving the university time in any field will, necessarily, save money for the university.

In my mind there is no stronger argument for doing something for an organisation than saving money.

Additionally:

I am not sure how many people are thrown out of the university or have to undergo some sort of academically related reprimand for plagiarism, but what if we could boast to be the university with the lowest cases of plagiarism in the country? If this were possible, the university's pass rate wopuld be further emphasised, and st andrews would become yet more desireasble to the potential student...

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[The Dude]

I think that Grandpa has distilled the point the best, though thank you ezra thank you for that style sheet because it is very helpful. I think a good case in point of how one can get confused is the debate about Harvard vs. Cambridge style. I always used MLA style (admittedly American though some tutors accept it over here) with my essays before I started at St. Andrews. The point is that there are a plethora of them out there. Also thank you Grandpa for the IR style sheet. We get one like that in english to but both of these seem to fall short and don't give examples for everything that one might encounter. Also that is only one department, and for instance, while we have an english style sheet we don't have one for history. Of course in history you run into different types of sources than you do in english so the other department's style sheet falls short. There are general style sheets like the one posted which seem to cover most everything but unless you know where to look you can be left stranded. I know this is a bit of a rehash of what I have already said but citation is not a field where one wants to be guessing, which is what I find my self sometimes doing. If the university had a comprehensive guide that everybody could follow it would make things so much easier. Also when a case of plagerism actually happened they could go to the guide and specifically point out where the error was. They wouldn't have to find which style someone was using in order to see if they were using it correctly. I know I am bitching a bit but back in school we had a style book which made everything very clear. Since I have come here though I can never tell if I am doing it correctly.

[Guest]

Quoting Grandpa from 22:24, 2nd Nov 2005

Saving the university time in any field will, necessarily, save money for the university.

In my mind there is no stronger argument for doing something for an organisation than saving money.

In the spirit of using italics...
Grandpa makes the schoolboy error of assuming that postgraduates or staff actually get paid for any hours they put in chasing up plagiarism - in many departments, pg tutors get paid for the hour they spend teaching. Nothing for prep time, nothing for marking, and certainly nothing for dealing with apparent cases of academic fraud. Result - no money lost, so no money to save!

(Are italics the new bold?)

[Bonnie]

This would also be helpful for mature students, especially because they are probably not coming straight from academia and things might have changed. I remember when my father was a mature student and it took him ages to figure out citations. He had many books on the subject, asked his professor, and tried to copy what the authors of his referenced work did. In the end, I had to do it for him. Him being a scientist and me being an arts student, I still don't know whether I was doing it right, especially because I didn't know what he was going on about in the paper itself.

A website would be a good idea because it can be referred to at all times. The website can list and give examples for all the different ways and professors could tell you which ones are appropriate for your work. A .pdf version can also be downloaded from the site for those who want it in hand.

Good idea!

[hr]

I love cheese.

[Grandpa]

Quoting from 23:29, 2nd Nov 2005


In the spirit of using italics...
Grandpa makes the schoolboy error of assuming that postgraduates or staff actually get paid for any hours they put in chasing up plagiarism - in many departments, pg tutors get paid for the hour they spend teaching. Nothing for prep time, nothing for marking, and certainly nothing for dealing with apparent cases of academic fraud. Result - no money lost, so no money to save!

No money lost so no money to save - what sort of skewed economic logic is that...?

I think you'll find that the schoolboy (-girl??) error is on your hand, my unregistered friend!

But the uni has already saved the money...by Not paying.

There is still the question of opportunity cost (of not paying the PG) which, I think the op. cost. of that would be actually paying them, in this particular localised case.

However, there are many other things the uni can/will do with the money they have not 'lost' (read 'spent') - like invest it in big ol' LotsaProfitMultiNat PLC. (Not that this is actually the case...but I think you get the picture...oh bloody hell, I think the 'Ethical Investment Group's gonna bve at my heels...better run get my blunderbuss!)

Sounds good to me!

On the other point of a PGs income from the university:

pg tutors get paid for the hour they spend teaching

I think that the PGs well know that they wont get paid per hour for all the 'extra curricular' work they do do. And God bless them for it, too.

I also won't pretend to know if this is true or not, but I'd imagine the university to have some sort of contract with the PGs they 'employ' (are you employees??) and if not, then I think your 'workers' rights' kick in after three months....anyhow, that last bit's beside the point, but what I'm trying to get at is that nothing's perfect, but in my experience things are always getting better...it's all about a positive attitude!

Anyhow, not that I'm condoning this next bit - far far from it, I deplore academic fraud - but if the PGs are Not paid for their extra curricular work, let's call it that, then surely it's not in their economic (I didn't say in their 'exclusive' - just economic) interest to chase up cases of academic fraud...so all the more reason for the university to produce an online (because it's the cheapest way in the short medium and long term) handbook outlining a university wide standard for citation.

Now - I don't expect the university would come down like a ton of bricks in this instance, and produce exacting guidelins, but I do think it would be in their interest - both academic and economic (as discussed) to produce a handbook stating something along the lines of "citation must be comprehensive (i.e.cover all aspects of the citation origin - it could list these), consistent (I think we all know what that means), and logical (i.e. easy to read).



[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Grandpa]

Quoting Bonnie from 00:34, 3rd Nov 2005

A website would be a good idea because it can be referred to at all times. The website can list and give examples for all the different ways and professors could tell you which ones are appropriate for your work. A .pdf version can also be downloaded from the site for those who want it in hand.

Good idea!

[hr]

I love cheese.

Yes! It would.

I like cheese too - however, only in the evening, or in the summer months if I happen to be working in the gardens at home...it's full of energy but will send you to sleep if you're not carefull!!

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[terry towelling]

If the information is already available, but hidden somewhere in the University's labrynthine website, perhaps the University could take steps to make the information a little more easy to find.

The current search engine on the website is pretty naff, though they have implemented a Google engine (but not advertised it very well).
You can find it at:
http://mini.st-andrews.ac.uk
It's a lot more accurate than the "random page generator" that is currently in place on the front page!

However, I think that another solution would be to have a sort of keyword system, as is in use by sites such as the BBC and Students' Association: eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/sex or
htttp://www.yourunion.net/sex
(which use "friendly URLs" to take you to a deeper area of the site).

www.st-and.ac.uk/plagiarism
www.st-and.ac.uk/plagiarism/english or history etc
www.st-and.ac.uk/termdates or calendar
www.st-and.ac.uk/graduation
www.st-and.ac.uk/residences

Things like that.
Obviously this would impact on more than just a style guide for citations, so may not be appropriate to this particular thread, but what do people think? And who should we present this to?

[Guest]

Which is more desireable?:-

1) Students being clear about what is required. I.e.: All students in full knowledge of what must be done in order to not be accused of plagiarism, or...

2) Students not clear about what is required, thus in danger of plagiarising?

Look: there's a big difference between not being certain about the required format for references, and plagiarism. Avoiding charges of plagiarism is pretty fucking simple: if you use someone else's idea, give them credit for it; if you use someone's prose, put it in quotation marks. It's not hard, and it certainly doesn't need university guidelines.

[Grandpa]

Quoting from 02:32, 3rd Nov 2005

Which is more desireable?:-

1) Students being clear about what is required. I.e.: All students in full knowledge of what must be done in order to not be accused of plagiarism, or...

2) Students not clear about what is required, thus in danger of plagiarising?

Look: there's a big difference between not being certain about the required format for references, and plagiarism. Avoiding charges of plagiarism is pretty fucking simple: if you use someone else's idea, give them credit for it; if you use someone's prose, put it in quotation marks. It's not hard, and it certainly doesn't need university guidelines.

Apologies for my indiscriminate use of profanity. I will not have someone speak to me like that. I don't care who they are.

But having your f*cking tutors asking you to use different f*cking citation systems is a big f*cking waste of f*cking time especially when some f*cking person's just told you that it's ''pretty fucking simple''. And you've already handed in your essay.

Don't you get the f*cking point? The point wasn't originally about ''how fucking simple'' it is to avoid plagiarism.

As I was saying before you so rudely waltzed in...

...No, you are right, there is a big difference. But that difference is not what we are talking about. What we are talking about is: saving confusion. Which you are not helping with. Go away, or become a little more empathetic towards the needs of others. Some people have no patience for others, just because they had to make a hard slog at something years ago, they think everyone should necessarily have to go through the same experience. Surely life is about making things easier for everyone?? Surely, then, as concerned individuals, we would be willing to make the university system a little more easy to understand. I can clearly remember my confusion at the beginning of 1st yr, and I think it would be a good thing to help future years.

As I may not have been specifically clear enough earlier, I shall re-iterate a previous point:

If the university did have a standardised set of readily accessible guidelines (which it only does thanks to the help of some kind soul by the name of ''terry towelling'', above), then no-one would have an excuse for plagiarising and I envisage the instances of plagiarism would decline.

Don't bother coming back in here if you will swear at me, because I will make a mockery out of you. AGAIN. No one appreciates it, it's not big and it's not clever.

Lastly: Now, you look, all I've come up with are valid (if not strong) arguments for making life easy for future students. Why are some people rallied against that? Where's the point? It doesn't help you, them, us, the university, ergo society at large in the long run. Cripes, some people really are just not very people minded, are they.

Yes, what I'm proposing is a minor change to a big big system. But don't lots of littles make a large?

C'mon people, show me your support.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Bonnie]

Quoting from 02:32, 3rd Nov 2005
Avoiding charges of plagiarism is pretty fucking simple: if you use someone else's idea, give them credit for it; if you use someone's prose, put it in quotation marks. It's not hard, and it certainly doesn't need university guidelines.

Don't be so hasty! There are quite a few grey areas when it comes to plagiarism and your simplified definition doesn't work.
One case is in language translation-- if two friends work on the piece together, is that okay? That's sometimes considered plagiarism. However, in my IR courses, if I borrowed friend's notes on books or if she helped me get the phrases right, than that's not plagiarism.
Or what if a society had been keeping an essay bank for years so that their members could look back at the good ones and write their essays accordingly? IR would like to consider this plagiarism but what about me having some copies of a friends' essays especially to help for the exams? IR wouldn't consider that plagiarism.
And there are cultures out there where plagiarism has a completely different meaning. 10% of this university consist of students from a culture where a student is encouraged to copy the masters and experts on the subjects because the student's independant thoughts are juvenile and irrelevant. So they're here, write an essay, the tutors tries to get them on plagiarism, and only then (after the fact) does the tutor explain to his classes what plagiarism is in this country, when there is no written handbook. This would seem to require the University to have rules on plagiarism and academic fraud.
Another reason: the law. We enter into a contract with the university and they can't end the contract (by sending someone down) without good reason under the conditions of the contract. The independent education ombudsman would say that the university could only throw you out according to the rules set down before you actually committed the academic fraud. See, if there are no rules on it then the university can't do anything to you.


In other news...

[hr]

I love cheese.

[Guest]

Grandpa: if someone swears once, in a post written at 2.30am, you might do well not to overreact. My use of profanity was emphatic, rather than insulting: grow a thicker skin. Make a mockery of me? Is that supposed to be some kind of threat? Ah well.

If the university did have a standardised set of readily accessible guidelines (which it only does thanks to the help of some kind soul by the name of ''terry towelling'', above), then no-one would have an excuse for plagiarising and I envisage the instances of plagiarism would decline.

This simply does not follow. The lack of a standardised style guide for references does [b]not[b] provide any kind of excuse for plagiarism. The university does have explicit guidelines on plagiarism: they are in the undergraduate handbook, and referenced online, for instance at:

http://biology.st-and.ac.uk/documents/25.pdf

(I know, it's biology - but it's still citing the handbook verbatim, and it's the first thing that Google displayed)

What *is* more significant is Bonnie's point about cultural differences; in this case, tutors should be required to make expectations explicit to students beforehand - well, perhaps. But again, this is an issue of academic fraud / plagiarism, rather than reference style. Reference style is a different issue, and we would do well to keep the two separate.

[ezra]

If the university did have a standardised set of readily accessible guidelines (which it only does thanks to the help of some kind soul by the name of ''terry towelling'', above), then no-one would have an excuse for plagiarising and I envisage the instances of plagiarism would decline.

You are confusing plagiarism with bad referencing. No amount of underspecification of acceptable reference format can ever be an excuse for plagiarism. The university has a very clear position on academic fraud; in the philosophy department, at least, it's impossible to avoid seeing it. The position, that is, not the fraud. The university does have rules on academic fraud and plagiarism: they are in the undergraduate handbook, and in the postgraduate handbook, if anyone would bother to read them.

Don't bother coming back in here if you will swear at me, because I will make a mockery out of you. AGAIN. No one appreciates it, it's not big and it's not clever.

i. Chill out. That post was written at 2.30 in the morning, and you should take things with a pinch of salt. I don't think people 'appreciate' swearing; on the other hand, I don't think most people give a toss either way.
ii. There is a difference between 'making a mockery' out of someone (=df: 'to cause to appear foolish or absurd) and overreaction. Overreacting, I might add, makes people look foolish.

[ezra]

deleted double post [i thought so]

[The Dude]

I don't think the issue is that there is an excuse for plagiarism. Despite shaky guidelines I think it can be assumed that citation is required. The point that I was trying to make is that it would make things a lot simpler and straight forward to have a set of citation guidelines that cover every possible source that one might encounter while at university. After all the definition in the biology guidelines states "proper acknowledgement." There is no mention though of what that is. In all of the department guides that I have encountered they go through the basics but do not give examples for more obscure kinds of sources, and very few of them even begin to acknowledge electronic sources. One might say then to look at a comprehensive guide of citation but there is a question of which one to use. Like I said before I have a comprehensive MLA guide but there a tutors who do not accept this. Before anyone makes a comment about being in Scotland and not America my point is that not everything is always acceptable. What I am trying to suggest is a comprehensive guide that is readily available either in print or pdf format, which includes all possible kinds of sources, that no tutor can turn away. It is obvious that you need to cite a source in order not to plagiarize but when you have a source which does not fit any of the examples of citation given you may not be giving "proper acknowledgement," which is were you get in trouble. My main point is not to excuse plagiarism. It is that this type of study tool is needed, and would be a simple way to greatly help the student population. Also http://mini.st-andrews.ac.uk is not exactly working at the moment.

[terry towelling]

It's working for me