The Library

[Grandpa]

The library is a disgrace. This is meant to be a world-class institution, and I should be proud to say I studied here - I'm sure I will be - but I'd be even more proud to say I studied at a university with a library conducive to studying. Not only are there insufficient books for the numbers of students (for example five books between 300 students, minus the ones who are going to buy their own books (not core texts) probably equals somewhere in the region of 299) but also the library is atmosphereless, uninviting and understocked.

Instead of spending lots on new student accomodation, why don't we focus on the primary reason for st andrews - to educate to the highest standards in Scotland, and easily amongst the highest in Britain entire. Providing a long list (20+ in most cases) of books on a single topic reading list is hardly any use when half the books appear as ''misplaced'' or ''in library'' when they never are. I suggest that the library a) needs a fine combing for all it's books - sort out exactly what they do and do not have, and invest in the ones which are lacking, and b) needs repositioning, preferably somewhere where its hideous shape can also be hidden, such as underground.

I do not know one person who enjoys the library, its atmosphere or has ever been able to find ALL the books on a reading list. Yes, the reading list is likely to be exhaustive, but if you want the best, you're necessarily going to want to put in the extra reading.

In short, the library holds the university back and I believe it should be completely reconceptualised. Not meaning to be rude, but it's like walking into a timezone when one enters the library. The decor is repulsive - it obviously hasn't been changed since the madman that designed it finally said 'go on boys, build this monstrosity.'

What were they thinking?

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[José Jimenez]

Quoting Grandpa from 22:29, 21st Nov 2005
The library is a disgrace. This is meant to be a world-class institution, and I should be proud to say I studied here - I'm sure I will be - but I'd be even more proud to say I studied at a university with a library conducive to studying. Not only are there insufficient books for the numbers of students (for example five books between 300 students, minus the ones who are going to buy their own books (not core texts) probably equals somewhere in the region of 299) but also the library is atmosphereless, uninviting and understocked.

Instead of spending lots on new student accomodation, why don't we focus on the primary reason for st andrews - to educate to the highest standards in Scotland, and easily amongst the highest in Britain entire. Providing a long list (20+ in most cases) of books on a single topic reading list is hardly any use when half the books appear as ''misplaced'' or ''in library'' when they never are. I suggest that the library a) needs a fine combing for all it's books - sort out exactly what they do and do not have, and invest in the ones which are lacking, and b) needs repositioning, preferably somewhere where its hideous shape can also be hidden, such as underground.

I do not know one person who enjoys the library, its atmosphere or has ever been able to find ALL the books on a reading list. Yes, the reading list is likely to be exhaustive, but if you want the best, you're necessarily going to want to put in the extra reading.

In short, the library holds the university back and I believe it should be completely reconceptualised. Not meaning to be rude, but it's like walking into a timezone when one enters the library. The decor is repulsive - it obviously hasn't been changed since the madman that designed it finally said 'go on boys, build this monstrosity.'

What were they thinking?

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

Grandpa I addressed this issue on the Ethical Investment (or maybe Simon Pepper) thread. I wholeheartedly agree. I therefore suggest to the Sinner community that we prepare and circulate a petition to be sent to the Students Union and to the University. Before we do that however, I understand that the University is planning an upgrade to the Library. If it is anything like past expansion projects, I suspect it will not go far enough to address the problem at all (I think the only viable answer is a brand new library). Your thoughts? If Ethical Investment can stir such a shitstorm, surely students will be even more interested in improving their own teaching facilities?

I say fuck feasbility studies and fuck bureaucratic bullshit. I have an architect friend in the states. If anyone here can give me the dimensions of the library, he can draw up preliminary plans.

Lets fucking do soemthing for once. I am serious!

[David Bean]

At risk of sounding complacent, I tended to use the class libraries most of the time - particularly for Philosophy - and never had any problem with them at all. It's true that the cataloguing situation in the main library should be handled better, however, and the issue of sub-honours texts remains prescient. I will say, though, that in my experience the situation gets a lot easier by the time you get to honours, with smaller courses, more independence of study and a wider variety of texts that you're likely to want to consult for essays, etc.

[hr]

I'm your Guardian Angel.

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

Four hundred medical students. Ten copies of the latest pathology textbook, 8 of which are in short loan. 'Nuff said.
Also, the opening times at weekends are ridiculous - the library should be what we need, not what the university feels generous enough to provide.

If 150 people can turn up to a drive on ethical investment, surely we can get more on the case of improving the library? I can't think of one student who'd be against demanding an improvement in facilities - lets do it!

[hr]

Will Watson - half man, half beast. All awesome.

[Al]

To be fair, the fault lies not with Library Services but with the people in the upper levels of University Management who keep increasing the student uptake. No improvement to Library facilities or increase in stock will have any effect while the student intake increases year on year.

[box_of_delights]

I have to say I actually really like the library. It has a sort of dated charm about it, and the numbers who use it testify to either its popularity or as a place to study. It's a shame it's lost some of its social aspect on Level Two since the whole "phones away, let's patrol the place like a prison camp" attitude... but I guess it is a place to study.

I know we have too few books and the opening hours are admittedly SHITE. But, I will miss the charm the current place has once the renovations take place

[princess]

Yes, this thread expresses exactly what I have been thinking for a while now! We need a new and better equipped library that suits the needs of students!
Thank you for posting this thread!

[Marco Biagi]

I say fuck feasbility studies and fuck bureaucratic bullshit. I have an architect friend in the states. If anyone here can give me the dimensions of the library, he can draw up preliminary plans.

Freedom-of-information the plans from the university - i.e. just ask estates for them by email. Then do it. 'Kicking on an open door' doesn't even begin to cover it.

[Kristin]

I love the library - I really enjoy working in there... The top floor is always nice and quiet, and so far I didn't have to inter-library-loan a single book - everything I needed or wanted was always there!

[hr]

Rochester. Royalist rakehell and rebellious romantic restoration poet. An easy earl and a cavalier chum of Charlie's (II). Wine and women, mirth and laughter - sermons and soda water? The day after? Not for the narcissistic nobleman!

[flarewearer]

Quoting David Bean from 23:47, 21st Nov 2005
At risk of sounding complacent, I tended to use the class libraries most of the time - particularly for Philosophy - and never had any problem with them at all.

Check out the biology library; literally a cupboard that isnt in the Saulcat system and was staffed by the good grace of the departmental staff for only a few hours a day. The Biolgoy Library at Edinburgh University is 100x more impressive than the St Andrews main library. Now that I've experienced a few other uni's libraries, St Andrews' has shot down in my estimation.

[hr]

image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/elgar.png

[Grandpa]

Your thoughts? If Ethical Investment can stir such a shitstorm, surely students will be even more interested in improving their own teaching facilities?

Four hundred medical students. Ten copies of the latest pathology textbook, 8 of which are in short loan. 'Nuff said.
Also, the opening times at weekends are ridiculous - the library should be what we need, not what the university feels generous enough to provide.

To be fair, the fault lies not with Library Services but with the people in the upper levels of University Management who keep increasing the student uptake. No improvement to Library facilities or increase in stock will have any effect while the student intake increases year on year.

I know we have too few books and the opening hours are admittedly SHITE.

expresses exactly what I have been thinking for a while now! We need a new and better equipped library that suits the needs of students!

And then there is this:

It has a sort of dated charm about it, and the numbers who use it testify to either its popularity or as a place to study.

The sort of dated charm I would, respectfully, associate with my (rather progressively) aging aunt's old underwear, and has the number of students using it currently as there is purely and simply no other alternative. It's easier to read the books (that you can find) there, as lugging 15 or so books however far it is on average that students live from the library, is not, I would argue, anybody's idea of preferable to not carrying them however far it is...

I have to say I actually really like the library. It has a sort of dated charm about it, and the numbers who use it testify to either its popularity or as a place to study. It's a shame it's lost some of its social aspect on Level Two since the whole "phones away, let's patrol the place like a prison camp" attitude... but I guess it is a place to study.

I can only say I am glad you like it in its current state, however I am still unswayed from my previous implication that the library such as it is is not the sort of library one would, could or should associate with a world-renowned university. But this alone is not reason enough to baulk that maybe something should be done.

On several occassion I am forced[i] to spend yet more money on huge amounts of photocopying due to the knowledge that come the time of essay planning/writing the necessary books shall not be there, because, as we have identified, we have more and more students needing access to a range of books that aren't always duplicated in short loan. The stocking problem remains a problem.

So, what needs to be done? Obviously, more room for a greater number of books - maybe even the granting of 'legal depository library' status [s](but this might be taking things a bit far, although then we would, like The British Library, The Bodleian Library (Oxford), Cambridge University Library, The National Library of Scotland Trinity College Library (Dublin) and The National Library of Wales can already do, have access to a free copy (inclusive of postage and packing) of every book published.[/s]. More room is probably going to mean a new building - the one there at the moment could either be extended, or, I would prefer, extended and a new 'facia' given to the whole thing. Get rid of the concrete and redesign with reclaimed Scottish stone. However, I should not be such an idealist. The principle problem is simply not enough of what we need, and yes, we should be aware of this. Very aware.

[hr]

[i][s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Grandpa]

Your thoughts? If Ethical Investment can stir such a shitstorm, surely students will be even more interested in improving their own teaching facilities?

Four hundred medical students. Ten copies of the latest pathology textbook, 8 of which are in short loan. 'Nuff said.
Also, the opening times at weekends are ridiculous - the library should be what we need, not what the university feels generous enough to provide.

To be fair, the fault lies not with Library Services but with the people in the upper levels of University Management who keep increasing the student uptake. No improvement to Library facilities or increase in stock will have any effect while the student intake increases year on year.

I know we have too few books and the opening hours are admittedly SHITE.

expresses exactly what I have been thinking for a while now! We need a new and better equipped library that suits the needs of students!

However

It has a sort of dated charm about it, and the numbers who use it testify to either its popularity or as a place to study.

The sort of dated charm I would, respectfully, associate with my (rather progressively) aging aunt's old underwear, and has the number of students using it currently as there is purely and simply no other alternative. It's easier to read the books (that you can find) there, as lugging 15 or so books however far it is on average that students live from the library, is not, I would argue, anybody's idea of preferable to not carrying them however far it is...

I can only say I am glad you like it in its current state, however I am still unswayed from my previous implication that the library such as it is is not the sort of library one would, could or should associate with a world-renowned university. But this alone is not reason enough to baulk that maybe something should be done.

On several occassion I am forced to spend yet more money on huge amounts of photocopying due to the knowledge that come the time of essay planning/writing the necessary books shall not be there, because, as we have identified, we have more and more students needing access to a range of books that aren't always duplicated in short loan. The stocking problem remains a problem.

So, what needs to be done? Obviously, more room for a greater number of books - maybe even the granting of 'legal depository library' status [s](but this might be taking things a bit far, although then we would, like The British Library, The Bodleian Library (Oxford), Cambridge University Library, The National Library of Scotland Trinity College Library (Dublin) and The National Library of Wales can already do, have access to a free copy (inclusive of postage and packing) of every book published.[/s]. More room is probably going to mean a new building - the one there at the moment could either be extended, or, I would prefer, extended and a new 'facia' given to the whole thing. Get rid of the concrete and redesign with reclaimed Scottish stone. However, I should not be such an idealist. The principle problem is simply not enough of what we need, and yes, we should be aware of this. Very aware.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Grandpa]

Where the hell is the point in University Hall having the only copy of the latest economic book by a certain author in it's own bloody inaccessible, reference library. The book concerned is the only copy of this particular edition available anywhere in the library. It is also one of the more frequently mentioned books that we must read from.

So, I guess what I am saying (in accordance with the librarian who told me that even if I were to go up to University Hall and ask to use it, that they would most likely turn me away as I don't live in University Hall) is that there is something inherently wrong with a university system that does not let all it's students view all (and the most current, in this case) of the books it does own.

I am appauled.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[Grandpa]

And thus will be taking the matter up with Mr Webster who happens to be the library representative for the SRC, I believe.

[hr]

[s]Cogitationis poenam nemo meretur, facias ipse quod faciamus suades - pax vobiscum.[/s]

[BenEsq]

Actually, the rep is Sarah Bertness.

Oh, this 'legal depository' you speak of - The Bodelian et al are what are termed 'copyright' libraries, wherein every copyrighted book in the U.K. will be in the library. St Andrews sold its' status as a copyright library centuries ago. It really doesn't have the funds to get this back in the forseeable future or indeed the space.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, but I do recommend very strongly that you email estates and the library concerning strategic planninng and citing the Freedom of Information Act; I've used it to get job remits and departmental expenditure in the past. There is a new Head of Libraries, whose name I forget, whereas for a while their hasn't been - perhaps a difference will be made?

In terms of student input, we've got to ask ourselves what the central library is for - is it to house a dozen texts for this and that subhonours course? It can't be both this and a research library for PostGrads. I personally think the way forward is putting material online; getting access to all major journals (online) is equally as important. There are some 200 or so texts that have been scanned hitherto. Anyhow, this has been rather rambling.
There is a library users forum - email dorep@st-and.ac.uk for details.




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Lions and tigers and bears...Oh my!

[queen of scots]

I find the library really frustrating. I've never known a library which is so slow to reshelve books before. There are countless occasions where the computer will say that a book is on the shelf, but it's nowehere to be found. Although the staff that work there are all very nice, they are not always the most competent bunch of people that you would hope for. The other day I heard one inform a student that he'd find foreign language dictionaries under the classification BX...hmmmm....

In terms of equipment it's pretty poor too. I have a lot of material on microfilm to work through, and it's a nightmare. It would also help if they provided some more power sockets - a lot of students work on laptops these days.

As a postgrad, I find the opening hours really crap out of term time. Although it's improved slightly from what it was a couple of years ago, it's still not great over the summer months. We pay fees too - and higher ones than the undergrads!

And I agree that the undergrad book situation is bad. Thank goodness I still have 2300 or so free photocopy units left....photocopying books is the way forward!

I wish the British Library was nearer...that's a library that's pretty much got it right! (though I wouldn't say no to longer opening hours in manuscripts...)

[hr]

Life is like a beautiful melody, only the lyrics are messed up.

http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100070

[queen of scots]

Oh, and I understood that the library was originally meant to be twice the size it is now - another identical block was meant to go where the staff carpark now is. But the uni ran out of money half way through. (I'm not entirely sure how true this is - a former vice principal told me though, so it probably has a grain of truth)

I believe it was modelled on Bristol library as well - the uni was too cheap to draw up plans of its own. And apparently they never took into account the weight of the books, and it's slowly sinking!

[hr]

Life is like a beautiful melody, only the lyrics are messed up.

http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100070

[Celestial Navigator]

Quoting Grandpa from 04:42, 22nd Nov 2005
Where the hell is the point in University Hall having the only copy of the latest economic book by a certain author in it's own bloody inaccessible, reference library. The book concerned is the only copy of this particular edition available anywhere in the library. It is also one of the more frequently mentioned books that we must read from.

So, I guess what I am saying (in accordance with the librarian who told me that even if I were to go up to University Hall and ask to use it, that they would most likely turn me away as I don't live in University Hall) is that there is something inherently wrong with a university system that does not let all it's students view all (and the most current, in this case) of the books it does own.

I am appauled.

The books in Uni Hall's library are bought by the Hall Committee out of residents' hall subs, so they don't belong to the University as a whole.

[A66]

Ok so we have decided it's not big enough and doesn't have enough copies of the major texts.

Size:
Other than building in town extension the following things I feel could be done and be far cheaper.

Part of the problem as I see is there are many books never used the amount of times a book has not been taken out in 10 years or more. So I propose building a warehouse out by Morrisons or Cupar any book not used in the last few years get put in the warehouse. It is then possible via saulcat to recall any book from this warehouse maybe with a day delay but would allow for a 30% reduction in the number of books in the current library.

Or as a cheaper less radical solution, replace the shelving with those on tracks that close up to each other only opening up aisle where people are accessing books.

Copys:
Surely some sort of automated alert could come up that a book needs purchasing as soon as it has x number of recalls etc. For my module I need one book for an essay, someone has this on long loan and would rather pay the fine than take it back therefore 50 people are sat with the choice spend £30 buying a book for one week or hope they bring it back. The fine systems needs changing, being a day late with a book is often a mistake, being two weeks late deserves a major ramping of the fine.

Opening hours are in my opinion a joke, with self check out all you need is a security guard between 10pm - 8 am and a weekends. Everyone can then use the service as and when they choose not when someone else chooses is sociable.

I feel possibly a radical overhaul of the loan system not quiet sure how but long loan too long, having to wait a week for the book normally means the reading is out of date afterwards and 3 day loans never make it back to the shelves.

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

Check out the biology library; literally a cupboard that isnt in the Saulcat system and was staffed by the good grace of the departmental staff for only a few hours a day. The Biolgoy Library at Edinburgh University is 100x more impressive than the St Andrews main library. Now that I've experienced a few other uni's libraries, St Andrews' has shot down in my estimation.

Medicine shares this facility. All we have to ourselves is a bookcase in the corner of the anatomy museum with books that previous students have donated/lost.

Quoting A66 from 09:27, 22nd Nov 2005
Size:
Other than building in town extension the following things I feel could be done and be far cheaper.

Part of the problem as I see is there are many books never used the amount of times a book has not been taken out in 10 years or more. So I propose building a warehouse out by Morrisons or Cupar any book not used in the last few years get put in the warehouse. It is then possible via saulcat to recall any book from this warehouse maybe with a day delay but would allow for a 30% reduction in the number of books in the current library.

Or as a cheaper less radical solution, replace the shelving with those on tracks that close up to each other only opening up aisle where people are accessing books.

We could probably do a combination of the two. Walking along the shelves of the fourth floor, there are many horribly outdated science books (I recall finding a Gray's anatomy from 1915) - usually books from the 70s that progress has rendered obsolete. I imagine that if these are withdrawn at all, it's out of sheer desparation that more modern books don't exist.

I think this is probably something we can attack from multiple angles - for instance, someone from each faculty (or preferably multiple someones) could put a motion to their staff-student councils about the library and demand that it is passed to the relevant authorities.

[hr]

Will Watson - half man, half beast. All awesome.