Oil Fires

[Grizzly]

I come from couple miles down the road from the fire. I am really annoyed hearing all these people slagging off the fire service in herts. What do you expect them to do? Go in put the fire out risking their lives when it will burn out by itself. They did a great job and did all they could. The head of the FBU saying they were woefully prepared is crap. He and whoever says anything detrimental against their efforts need to think before they speak.

[ezra]

Quoting Haunted from 18:56, 14th Dec 2005

Quoting ezra from 16:34, 14th Dec 2005
an upper-middle-class kid, one of whose parents works in the civil service, and where the entire family votes Tory. strange, don't you think, that the stereotypes fit so well?

Now I am going to get some articulate arguement about how that wasn't a conclusion but some sort of hypothesis/derogatory comment that you put forward in order to back up your well thought out logical arguement about my original post lacking reason?

Haunted, you really don't have to try hard, do you? I wasn't making an argument, or posing a hypothesis; I was just despairing at the childish attitude (now there's a derogatory comment for you) which people often take towards, for instance, firefighters. They do a difficult and dangerous job; by and large, they do it very well. They're not exactly overpaid, either.

If you want a hypothesis, it is this: were you to become a firefighter, you would expect to unionise, or at least to have the right to do so. Class is relevant, because the attitude which you endorse is a typically bourgeois one.

Come on, Haunted, give it some thought.

[Haunted]

Would I expect to unionise if I was in the RAF?
The point I am trying to get across (which I thought I had done in a blindingly obvious way) is that such a vital emergency service should not have the right to strike.
Imagine if a sizable majority of the police or hospital staff did it

[ezra]

yes, Haunted, you did get that across in a blindingly obvious way. the point which you keep missing - repeatedly - is that you are just making an assertion. unfounded, unjustified, and typically bourgeois.

congratulations.

[Rilla]

I believe that everyone should have the right to strike, regardless of profession.
At the end of the day, it is just a job. People have the right to a fair wage, and decent working hours - obviously it can't always be 9-5, but it should be fair, i.e., time off in lieu of hours worked.
Should any person in a job be taken advantage of by their employers - be it a private company or the government, they should have the right to strike.
Striking is always a last resort - people don't do it without thinking seriously about it - people lose their own wages - it's not something done without thought.

[hr]

"O unworn world enrapture me, enrapture me in a web
Of fabulous grass and eternal voices by a beech"

[Guest]

Grizzly, I agree. My pals are members of the St. Albans Firefighting Crew and were on call 24hrs a day the past week, working 16 hour shifts to put the fires at Buncefield out.

They put their lives in danger everyday for the sake of the public and whilst having a union is slightly controversil (as the strikes were), this is aimed at ensuring they are not taken for granted and giving them a fair and honest pay structure, that I fell they believe. Unlike the military services, getting injured as a fire fighter also means you are likely to lose your job and receive little in benefits, less than military members earn in similar circumstances.

[Guest]

Quoting ezra from 16:34, 14th Dec 2005
ofhegoes: maybe you can see words that I can't, but Haunted's post had neither reasoning (valid or otherwise) or a train of thought. it was just an assertion. precisely the type of assertion you expect to hear from an upper-middle-class kid, one of whose parents works in the civil service, and where the entire family votes Tory. strange, don't you think, that the stereotypes fit so well?

Just out of interest, do you believe that, having carefully thought about all the issues, anyone could rationally vote tory?

[Haunted]

Quoting Rilla from 14:46, 15th Dec 2005
I believe that everyone should have the right to strike, regardless of profession.
At the end of the day, it is just a job

See, I just dont see how that can apply to essential services (emergency, military, goverment etc).
I'm not saying they shouldn't be entitled to an honest wage, I'm saying that the risk to human life because of them striking is too great. There are some jobs where you simply have to put the welfare of others before yourself.

[papercutheart]

Police have today admitted that George Best was not in fact buried in Belfast last week, and that in retrospect the decision to cremate him in Hemel Hempstead on Sunday morning might have been a mistake.

[hr]

[Haunted]

Quoting ezra from 13:30, 15th Dec 2005
yes, Haunted, you did get that across in a blindingly obvious way. the point which you keep missing - repeatedly - is that you are just making an assertion. unfounded, unjustified, and typically bourgeois.

Observation: The fire brigade is essential to ensure the safety of the general public against, well, fire.

Assertion: Lack of fire service = greater risk of death

Conslusion: Fire service striking is bad, because death is bad.

?

[ezra]

Just out of interest, do you believe that, having carefully thought about all the issues, anyone could rationally vote tory?

Depends what you mean by 'rationally'. If you mean 'perfectly self-interested', then certainly. If your conception of rationality is a bit more substantive, then perhaps; with sufficient lack of information, anything is possible.

Haunted: again, that's an assertion, not an argument. For instance:

Assertion: poorly-functioning, underpaid and undermotivated fire service = greater risk of death

conclusion: fire service striking is good in the long run, because the net benefit is positive

mm?

[Paranoid]

I for one would love it if Government went on strike for a week )

Ruler of my own country...Hazzah!

[hr]

..I've got this pain down all the diodes on my left side...

[flarewearer]

Quoting papercutheart from 18:09, 15th Dec 2005
Police have today admitted that George Best was not in fact buried in Belfast last week, and that in retrospect the decision to cremate him in Hemel Hempstead on Sunday morning might have been a mistake.

I'm sure there's a joke hidden in here somewhere, but I'm still looking for it.

[hr]

image:www.magnificentoctopus.com/x/elgar.png

[Guest]

Quoting ezra from 19:35, 15th Dec 2005
Depends what you mean by 'rationally'. If you mean 'perfectly self-interested', then certainly. If your conception of rationality is a bit more substantive, then perhaps; with sufficient lack of information, anything is possible.

Slightly different question then, do you think anyone who genuinely cares about the rest of society and is very well informed about the major issues of the day could vote tory?

[also do you actually have any friends who are tories?]

[Haunted]

Quoting ezra from 19:35, 15th Dec 2005
conclusion: fire service striking is good in the long run, because the net benefit is positive

There are other ways to protest inequality or hardship without endangering the general public.
Fair enough, the fire service striking is bound to get the governments attention, but is it really worth the risk to human life?
I would say no

[ezra]

Slightly different question then, do you think anyone who genuinely cares about the rest of society and is very well informed about the major issues of the day could vote tory?

Of course: nobody is perfect. Specifically, 'caring about the rest of society' is a pretty broad term. One might care about 'traditional societal values', for instance, or one might think that the most important feature of society is the welfare of the least-well-off. So it depends on where your concerns lie. I maintain that some concerns are more justified than others.

Furthermore, people will have differing opinions as regards how best to solve a practical problem; again, I maintain that some ways are better than others. But that's an empirical question; I don't know how much you intend to cover by the 'very well informed' phrase.

Haunted:

There are other ways to protest inequality or hardship without endangering the general public.
Fair enough, the fire service striking is bound to get the governments attention, but is it really worth the risk to human life?
I would say no

i. Examples please?
ii. Not worth the risk to human life? What if it, in the long run, saved more lives than it sacrificed? How many people died in the last fire strike as a direct consequence of that action? And why don't you think it's worth the risk, if there is one?