Self harm

[floatingonmycloud]

What does everyone think of this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4830448.stm

I'm not sure that I agree with it or not. It compares self-harming with alcohol abuse, which in a way it is similar. But are patients with an alcohol problem allowed to carry on drinking in hospital? Others with some kind of drug addiction, like painkillers, are they allowed to carry on with that addiction in hospital?

Also in a way it is similar to eating disorders, another way of coping, but anorexics who are hospitalised probably won't be allowed to continue to starve themselves in hospital! It just seems a bit odd to me.

[holden caulfield]

Personally I think it looks like a good move. While I understand what you're saying about anorexics and alcoholics, self-harm is different in that often it is controlled and not at all life-threatening; it is highly regimented and limited. From what I know of the other two, they are often totally uncontrollable and sufferers don't necessarily know when to stop to a point where it endangers their lives. With self-harm, however, while sufferers may not be able to stop doing it day after day, they are often able to limit the amount they do at once. (I may not have explained that ery well).

(see this article for example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3930935.stm)

So yes, I think its a good idea. Several years ago it is exactly the sort of treatment I would ahve liked, anyway

[Smith]

nutters

not the self-harmers, the damn nhs

[hr]

Cake, and fine wine.

[Zak]

Quite frankly im glad the NHS has started to acknowledge self harm as a real issue and actually do something about it. The idea of providing alternatives and a safe environment is a good idea, it might not work for all but least they're trying to help.

As holden said, self harm is totally different to alcoholism and eating disorders. Just because you self harm doesnt mean your unaware of the real damage your doing, i for one could of self harmed more in the past but was aware that doing so could of endangered my life so didn't. I never wanted to die.

Self harm will always be a taboo subject but at least the NHS no regard it as a real problem and not just something that happens.

[hr]

Im not getting jiggy, its Parkinsons!

[exnihilo]

So you didn't go too far because you didn't want to die. Why DID you go as far as you did? Cry for help?

[Frank]

Quoting exnihilo from 12:48, 22nd Mar 2006Why DID you go as far as you did? Cry for help?

Well, if it was, the NHS seem to be doing a good thing in trying to help the poor buggers out[forgive the patronising overtones please, I've never been too impressed with Self Harm, but then I'm not knowledgeable about...well...any of it].

Seems like a plausible solution, it may or may not work long term, but it seems like a good idea, and certainly a step up from confiscating all sharp objects and puting folks in a straight jacket until they agree to stop[or whatever the did originally].

Seems like a good idea to me, I can't think of a better way offhand...

Frank

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[holden caulfield]

Quoting exnihilo from 12:48, 22nd Mar 2006
So you didn't go too far because you didn't want to die. Why DID you go as far as you did? Cry for help?

Its not necessarily a cry for help, it actually does make you feel better; its a coping mechanism. It probably sounds weird if you havent been there

[exnihilo]

I was only seeking clarification - not passing comment.

[Zak]

Cry for help, coping mechanism, believing i could solve my and other peoples problems by hurting myself, wanting to hurt myself because it made me feel better, i enjoyed it. Its a complicated and viscious cycle that is hard to understand if you haven't been in it, the amount of emotions and how it can affect your life is vast. I never did it for attention, i always hid the cuts and scars and never told anyone about them. Only with the help of my girlfriend did i manage to put an end to the worst of it.
See why i think its a good idea that people start to recognise it as a real problem and do something about it? What if a person hasnt got someone they can trust to talk to?

[hr]

Im not getting jiggy, its Parkinsons!

[munchingfoo]

In my experience, which i would argue is quite substantial, as only ever having been an observer of self harm and never practiced it myself I would say this is a rediculous idea.

Pretty much every self harmer you know is doing it for attention. How do I know this? Well, because the other 10% of self harmers that you know but don't know they do it, they are the ones not doing it for attention. (obviously)

Now, if i cut myself to get attention and then find out that i can get all the attention i want by cutting myself in hospital do you think this is going to stop me doing it?

And, if I am not an attention seeking self harmer, do you think I am going to go to hospital to get attention?

The later group really needs this form of help but the system proposed wouldn't tackle these people.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Guest]

The worst part is the aftermath, when you're convinced anyone you talk to will think of you as a pathetic attention-seeker. Mine was actualy a suicide attempt that I pussied out of when I found I couldn't take the pain. Finding and opening arteries on your arm is harder than you'd think, even if, like me, they usually stand out quite prominantly.

[sweet]

Quoting munchingfoo from 15:13, 22nd Mar 2006
In my experience, which i would argue is quite substantial, as only ever having been an observer of self harm and never practiced it myself I would say this is a rediculous idea.

Pretty much every self harmer you know is doing it for attention. How do I know this? Well, because the other 10% of self harmers that you know but don't know they do it, they are the ones not doing it for attention. (obviously)

Now, if i cut myself to get attention and then find out that i can get all the attention i want by cutting myself in hospital do you think this is going to stop me doing it?

And, if I am not an attention seeking self harmer, do you think I am going to go to hospital to get attention?

The later group really needs this form of help but the system proposed wouldn't tackle these people.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

Tell me, are you making statements such as this because you know many self-harmers who have pointed out their scars to you and attempted to cry on your shoulder? Or is this a half-baked, ill-informed prejudice you are passing off as fact? Just curious.

Edit: ah, I have re-read your post and you do have extensive experience. Look, in my experience, and I have been close to several of "these people," it is was not an attention-seeking thing. My friends hid their scars, were embarrassed by them, and did not choose to discuss their self-harming.

[maenad]

Quoting munchingfoo from 15:13, 22nd Mar 2006
Pretty much every self harmer you know is doing it for attention. How do I know this? Well, because the other 10% of self harmers that you know but don't know they do it, they are the ones not doing it for attention. (obviously)

No seriously, how do you know this? Do you have real figures to back this up? Maybe you're right but I see no 'evidence' here and I'm interested.

Even if people are 'only' doing it for attention though, they still need help. I understood from the article that patients were also given help to make the choice to stop, and therapists would help them look at why they use that method of attention-seeking.

Quoting Frank from 12:57, 22nd Mar 2006
[forgive the patronising overtones please, I've never been too impressed with Self Harm, but then I'm not knowledgeable about...well...any of it].

Odd comment. Do you really think - having admitted you have no knowledge of the subject - that self harmers expect you to be 'impressed' by their actions? Your post came across in a very sneering tone - you might want to remember that self harmers are people with a problem. They need help. My only contact with self harmers has been on internet forums but I've never heard one boast about how cool they are for doing it.

[Smith]

I don't self harm.

I just get tattoos. Hurts like hell, and leaves an awesome life-changing mark.

I love it.

[hr]

Cake, and fine wine.

[Frank]

Quoting maenad from 17:28, 22nd Mar 2006

Quoting Frank from 12:57, 22nd Mar 2006
[forgive the patronising overtones please, I've never been too impressed with Self Harm, but then I'm not knowledgeable about...well...any of it].

Odd comment. Do you really think - having admitted you have no knowledge of the subject - that self harmers expect you to be 'impressed' by their actions? Your post came across in a very sneering tone - you might want to remember that self harmers are people with a problem. They need help. My only contact with self harmers has been on internet forums but I've never heard one boast about how cool they are for doing it.

I believe there's a few things behind this:

I've never known anyone who was scared or embarassed about it, only a few people who[as far as I could tell, and excusing the seeming arrogance behind it] it seemed to me blatantly like attention seeking(though I suppose anybody doing it for attention needs a bit of help too).

As with muchingfoo, I've only encountered it from a 'on the outside looking in' perspective, never from a PoV of having done or felt it, and as far as I'm aware, not quite like how it is described on this thread.

That is to say, the people I've known, haven't, as far as I know: spoken about it, willfully paraded their scars, swooned saying 'Oh, it's the blood loss from the self harm' or things like that, but people that...readily made the information available to others. Y'know, stealing a knife or corkscrew and doing it in plain sight of others, only *after* these incidents had they covered up their arms and such.

Somehow, in these circumstances, it never felt quite so pitiable as an actual problem as opposed to someone who's simply causing problems for the sake of a commotion and a bit of attention.

Again though, this is strictly my point of view, and at no point am I claiming to actually be further informed than my own point of view about matters. I can understand that there will be people out there who feel exactly, or rather similarly as Zak points out.

I mean, the only times I've actually been facing a self harmer is when they've been doing it as a deliberate act of attention. It didn't last though. Well, not really. So, I understand there are problems with it, I'm just not in the slightest knowledgable about them.

I must also agree in part with munchingfoo's criticism of the program. I mean, his concerns are valid. Do any of us actually know the full ins and outs of self harm beyond our own limited perspective? Sure[again, I don't mean to sound patronizing], you[anybody] may have been surrounded by people who really did feel badly and secretive about alot of things and went to terrible lengths to conceal it, only just being coaxed out of their dark thoughts by some benevolent soul. But that as anecdotal evidence has no bearing, it's a handful of cases. As I say, I've seen it where it *is* for attention, as far as I can tell. I can imagine where it'd be genuine.

Okay, I'm rambling now. Does anyone here actually have a usefully informed point of view[or two] that can make, at very least my own, our understanding of all the actual facts about the situation(s) somewhat clearer?

I just find alot of the supposition and remarking ...hard to get through; what makes munchinfoo's or zak's point any more useful than the other? Do either?

It reminds me of an argument that ended with me hanging the phone up on my mum when she continually and inexhaustibly try to overwhelm me with anecdotal evidence on why I should consider Homeopathy for my exczema when my concern was that there was, to my knowledge, no statistically plausible and scientifically 'close to sound' evidence for it.

Again, rambling. So, it's not that I expect to be impressed with self harmers, or that I think they expect me to be, but I have already encountered people who were directly using it more along the lines of 'attention seeking' than those who were using it as Zak and others suggest is most common.

[For the record, I'm quite sure 'instinctively' that it's not majorly attention seekers]

I should stop digging here...

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[munchingfoo]

Quoting maenad from 17:28, 22nd Mar 2006

Quoting munchingfoo from 15:13, 22nd Mar 2006
Pretty much every self harmer you know is doing it for attention. How do I know this? Well, because the other 10% of self harmers that you know but don't know they do it, they are the ones not doing it for attention. (obviously)

No seriously, how do you know this? Do you have real figures to back this up? Maybe you're right but I see no 'evidence' here and I'm interested.

Its a rather simple theory. Of course it can never be proven by statistics. The 10% is an arbitary number and is probably incorrect but its about right for the people I know.

The whole point is, if someone doesn't tell you they self harm then they are not attention seeking. This does not imply that those who ddo attention seek are the only ones you know about but its a pretty safe guess to assume that most of the people you know do it do it for attention. I know i'm not explaining myself well but I hope you get the idea.

Even if people are 'only' doing it for attention though, they still need help. I understood from the article that patients were also given help to make the choice to stop, and therapists would help them look at why they use that method of attention-seeking.

Yes of course, i didn't suggest that they didn't need help. My sole point was that this form of help will not work for those type of people and they are the most likely to accept this help when offered. I wasn't trying to insult anyone or put anyone down or even say that one form of self harm differs from another in severity (although I do believe it does but that is a discussion for another time)


[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[munchingfoo]

Quoting sweet from 17:22, 22nd Mar 2006

Quoting munchingfoo from 15:13, 22nd Mar 2006
In my experience, which i would argue is quite substantial, as only ever having been an observer of self harm and never practiced it myself I would say this is a rediculous idea.

Pretty much every self harmer you know is doing it for attention. How do I know this? Well, because the other 10% of self harmers that you know but don't know they do it, they are the ones not doing it for attention. (obviously)

Now, if i cut myself to get attention and then find out that i can get all the attention i want by cutting myself in hospital do you think this is going to stop me doing it?

And, if I am not an attention seeking self harmer, do you think I am going to go to hospital to get attention?

The later group really needs this form of help but the system proposed wouldn't tackle these people.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

Tell me, are you making statements such as this because you know many self-harmers who have pointed out their scars to you and attempted to cry on your shoulder? Or is this a half-baked, ill-informed prejudice you are passing off as fact? Just curious.

Edit: ah, I have re-read your post and you do have extensive experience. Look, in my experience, and I have been close to several of "these people," it is was not an attention-seeking thing. My friends hid their scars, were embarrassed by them, and did not choose to discuss their self-harming.

Yeah - you should probably try reading my post just once more. My only point is that this will not solve the issue for the reasons i mention, I wasn't insulting anyone or belittling a situation.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Chain Mailer]

Sounds a bit nutty to me :s maybe they're working on the basis that if they let the person cut themselves while at the same time having a psychiatrist sitting there saying 'so how does that make you feel?'/ 'what do you think about that?' will put them off for life :s urgh psychiatrist! nearly as bad as consullors :p

[hr]

Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious

[floatingonmycloud]

Personally, I think the majority of self-harmers aren't doing it for attention. Unless they go around showing off the scars. But most people, I think are a bit ashamed to admit they do it, because people will think they're weak and won't know what to say to them.

In my case, I am glad there has been more attention paid to self-harmers and mental health in general recently. Have you seen the TV ads about it? Although the NHS plan is a bit dodgy in my opinion it is good that they are beginning to accept it a bit.

[angel_kohaku]

I think it's a good idea in some ways.

I also read somewhere that they give you a pen, and it's your "special pen" and if you have thing for knives and razor blades, instead of cutting, you pen yourself, then afterwards you look and go "oh, well if i really cut myself that would scar so badly." And then you don't do it. Or something... In theory

But it's better it's now being dealt with in a better way than "call the men in white coats" or "only attention seeking emo kids self harm".

[hr]

I wanna be an anarchist, get pissed, destroy