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When I was 11

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Re:

Postby Thalia on Fri May 12, 2006 4:13 pm

[quote]Quoting theflirt from 16:02, 12th May 2006
[I don't understand how the boy can be charged with rape when the girl admits it was a one night stand....she gave her consent - it isn't rape! but if they are going to call it rape, then the girl is also guilty surely?! I don't understand how they can only charge the boy when it is underage sex and not the girl as well!
[quote]

The reason they can convict the boy is that according to the law the girl can't give consent to sex at the age of 11 as she's too young to fully comprehend what she's agreeing to. Whereas, at 15, it could be argued that the boy did understand what he was doing, at least enough to know that he was committing a crime in having sex with her.

I know that if a 15 year old boy had sex with my sister in a year's time (she's 10 now), I'd want the little monster to hang. But then I am a tad overprotective of my baby sister :-P

I seriously can't believe the attitude of that girl's mother though - there's no way my mum would turn around and say she was 'proud' of me if i got pregnant at that age - it only condones something that the mother should never have been stupid enough to allow to happen in the first place. What the hell was the girl doing going on a night out in Edinburgh at that age anyway? It never even occurred to me at 11 to want to go on a night out anywhere :-/

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Re:

Postby pea on Fri May 12, 2006 4:14 pm

She's from West Lothian but had a "night out" in Edinburgh which is where she slept with this boy.

What parents in their right mind would let their child go out for a night out in Edinburgh, aged 11?!?

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Re:

Postby Malcolm on Fri May 12, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting JM from 17:03, 12th May 2006
im pretty sure it (the preggers girl) is in edinburgh,


What makes you think that? It says "West Lothian" in all the articles, Edinburgh isn't in West, East or Midlothian - it's its own unit.

EDIT: It's because of what pea said that made you think that. The thing was conceived in Edinburgh, presumably the father lives there.
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Re:

Postby harmless loony on Fri May 12, 2006 4:21 pm

I was discussing this story with one of my corridor mates earlier and we were really shocked!

I personally believe the blame lies with the mother/grandmother. What kind of mother allows her 11 year old daughter to go out to a city at night? Smoke 20 fags a day and down so much alcohol? She's a primary example of why some people should be sterilised early on.

Surely the law must be able to do something and intervene? This so called mother has basically indirectly abused her children through her crap parenting.

But as usual the law will sit back and not give a toss - after all catching speeding motorists is more important than sorting out the break down of society.

The UK is turning into a bit of a crap hole.......makes me think I definitely wouldn't want to bring my kids up here.

At the age of 11, I wasn't allowed to go shopping on my own - and my mum used to walk me to school (even though it was literally down the road). Even though at the time I didn't see why she was overprotective - I am so thankful for it now and my kids are going to get the same over protective treatment.
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Re:

Postby Thalia on Fri May 12, 2006 4:21 pm

To Fozzy Bear - a girl can become pregnant as soon as she's had her first period. The fact tht her body isn't fully developed may cause problems for her but it is still possible for her to give birth.

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Re:

Postby Lodestone on Fri May 12, 2006 4:28 pm

This is not new, nor is it the result of "a more promiscuous culture" (which isn't a bad thing in itself anyway, nor is it due to the sexualisation of pre-teens, nor a reflection of anything the sexually-inhibited general public is so up in arms about.

It's not even a hugely terrible thing, though it's going to be very bad for the physical and mental health of both mother and child—but at least it involved only a lot of misguidedness, rather than actual abuse.

"The way society is today" about sex is in fact far more healthy and aware than it ever has been before. Cases like this will continue to occur, and they always have occurred, all the way back through the centuries, in all cultures (which is not to say they're acceptable at all--just regrettably inevitable).
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Re:

Postby Fozzy Bear on Fri May 12, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting Thalia from 17:21, 12th May 2006
To Fozzy Bear - a girl can become pregnant as soon as she's had her first period. The fact tht her body isn't fully developed may cause problems for her but it is still possible for her to give birth.

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i know that much, but i'm surprised she's started at 11. granted im not sure what age is "normal", but im pretty sure its usually a year or two older than that.

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Re:

Postby Pan on Fri May 12, 2006 4:41 pm

I read somewhere that the age of puberty in girls is getting younger and younger.

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Re:

Postby Amorphous on Fri May 12, 2006 4:55 pm

Quoting Pan from 17:41, 12th May 2006
I read somewhere that the age of puberty in girls is getting younger and younger.


I don't think anyone quite knows yet what causes puberty to happen (in girls, at least) but it is known that there's no 'clock' in the ovary that decides when it's time. I think the favoured theory is that it's due to overall body weight, thus puberty is happening earlier and earlier in rich Western cultures because of the availability of food etc.

(My Comparitive Physiology revision at work. Bless Professor Slater.)
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Re:

Postby Clonion on Fri May 12, 2006 4:58 pm

Some countries have set the legal age of consent at 12 (which, ok, she'd still have been under) uncluding Mexico, Panama, Philippines, Uruguay and Zimbabwe. It is 13 Japan, South Korea and Spain. In fact, I remember checking this once before, and at that time (and not that long ago) Romania's was set at 9 for girls.

Not sure what point I'm trying to make here, as I'm knee-deep in essays, but thought I'd throw them into the equation.

(Info from http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm)

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Re:

Postby maz on Fri May 12, 2006 5:03 pm

If you look at the pictures in the sun it is easy to see that this girl is fairly developed for a 12 year old. She's taller than her mum, and as far as I can tell, she's not a gangly little girl. So its not so crazy that she would be able to get pregnant. I think they found an 8 year old a few years ago, in somewhere like mexico who had a baby. Its probably not healthy for a still developing body to be going through all those hormonal changes.

And her mother says she has nightmares about labour, and she's going to be there to look after her little girl. She should have been looking after her little girl in the first place. Not that I'm all for mollycoddling, I think in a lot of cases being over protective is a bad thing as the child just rebels. There's no need to be walking a 12 year old to school. That kind of thing leads to bullying.

Oh and Duncan - I don't remember a 13 year old being pregnant, was this after my time? Definately quite a few 4th years, but I don't remember a 2nd year ever being pregnant. And I'm a gossip queen!

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Re:

Postby flossy on Fri May 12, 2006 5:05 pm

Honestly, it just makes me feel queasy. If I found out anyone had been having sex with my sister, getting her drunk or even just giving her cigarettes, despite the fact she's almost 16, they'd have to watch their backs. I'd imagine that most parents would feel that level of protectiveness over their offspring and find it appalling that her mum is "proud".

There is some evidence that the onset of puberty occurs sooner in girls without an active male role model in their lives which sadly in most cases of young lasses getting knocked up, seems to be the case.

What's the bet that in 9 years time, we'll hear about the wee bastard child being new youngest ever pregnant kid? Surely it would be better to have the baby adopted so the cycle doesn't repeat itself.

It's been suggested in the news today that contraceptives be put in methadone so that addicts don't become pregnant. I don't think it's time to force young children onto contraceptives but if they're actively seeking to become pregnant underage, I think it should be possible to get a court order to make the child get the contraceptive implant.

If I ever have kids, I'm keeping them safe in a filing cabinet.

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Re:

Postby Al on Fri May 12, 2006 5:05 pm

When I was doing teacher training at a school in Wales, a girl was caught wanking off two boys at the same time. I say caught but as she was doing it in class there was very little catching needed. She - and they - were in Year Seven. That would make her 11 or 12. I may be wrong but if she was prepared to do that in a classroom full of pupils, a teacher and a classroom assistant, she was doing a lot more out of school.
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Re:

Postby bdw on Fri May 12, 2006 5:10 pm

Quoting Al from 18:05, 12th May 2006
When I was doing teacher training at a school in Wales, a girl was caught wanking off two boys at the same time. I say caught but as she was doing it in class there was very little catching needed. She - and they - were in Year Seven. That would make her 11 or 12. I may be wrong but if she was prepared to do that in a classroom full of pupils, a teacher and a classroom assistant, she was doing a lot more out of school.


was there dairylea involved?
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Re:

Postby Senethro on Fri May 12, 2006 5:12 pm

I would say this is something gone mad but I can't honestly be bothered. This case is unusual but people are just getting unneccessarily worked up because it involves sex and children (Oh, please think of them!) mixed in with substantial middle class resentment that people in poverty don't just die quietly and cleanly or something.

The fact that this is news at all indicates that we are living in what is the best time in history for the largest %age of the population.

Move along people, enjoy the Second Elizabethan Golden Age.

BTW dunqn, you never played football in a park, did you?
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Re:

Postby OhhMy on Fri May 12, 2006 5:16 pm

Quoting Al from 18:05, 12th May 2006
When I was doing teacher training at a school in Wales, a girl was caught wanking off two boys at the same time. I say caught but as she was doing it in class there was very little catching needed. She - and they - were in Year Seven. That would make her 11 or 12. I may be wrong but if she was prepared to do that in a classroom full of pupils, a teacher and a classroom assistant, she was doing a lot more out of school.


BLOODY HELL! Some times I think that these cases might warrent forced contraceptive implants to ensure that these little brats dont reproduce any more than they already have. The boys who get the girls pregnant should get the snip. Removing a child from a mother is a very painfull thing to do but when that mother is a child who has been braught up in a way that is frankly scary then adoptioin would seem the best option for the mother, her family and the child. I think we as a society have to take drastic steps to stop the cylces that produce this behaviour from continuing.

F*&k the rights of the mother we must do what is best for the baby.
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Re:

Postby Lodestone on Fri May 12, 2006 5:17 pm

dunqn,

That is one of the nastiest, most pathologically reactionary posts I have ever seen on a message-board. And then it was followed by a second, which in its simplicity was even worse.

Parents, society, or the little slut? The man is not an option here, clearly.

Most of the country is like this. These people no doubt live in stinking poverty. Yes, the parents will be scummy, shitty neds. But they're probably happy being on the dole, leeching off society, having a grandchild at 34 is probably an achievement to them - presumably the only thing they ever have, or ever will achieve.


This can't be credited with anything. You know you've extrapolated to a gross stereotype from almost no information whatsoever.

At the end of the day, it's horrible stories like this that have left me very much with the thought - "there's absolutely no way I'm bringing up kids in this country". There's only so much you can shelter them from whilst being fair, and I've no intention, when the time comes, of being dangerously overprotective.


Whence comes the desire to shelter them at all?

I just want to rest happy in the knowledge that wherever I am, they're not going to be hanging about with the sort of scum that gets pregnant at 11.


Jesus!

There's two possible terrible things going on there. The first is the implication that anyone unforunate enough to get pregnant at 11 becomes "scum"--for what? The second is the repetition of the stereotyping--that this kind of thing only happens to those at the bottom of the social ladder--who you then categorise as "scum".

Jesus!

By growing up in these areas - or this country, to be fair - they're losing their childhood far, far too early. Kids should be playing football in parks and whatever else kids do, not having sex, doing drugs and committing crime. Call me massively opinionated and/or misinformed, but you can't deny that in many places, this is the case.


Committing crime is a different issue--nobody should be doing it, and that kids do (as they always have done--Oliver Twist, anyone?--this is nothing new!)--but, of course, children, who haven't developed enough self-awareness and understanding of the world, shouldn't be doing things with such huge repurcussions as drugs and sex. It's mentally and physically dangerous.

But what solution do you propose?

Especially considering this--

and another thing, it's nothing to do with the schools. They teach awareness more than enough.


If you compare rates of teen pregnancy and STDs in Britain and in a country like the Netherlands where sex education is compulsory and explicit from a very young age, you will find that their rates are much better. It's that simple. We do not sufficiently educate. People don't know their own bodies.

There's an exact analogue with drugs--legalise a drug and control its use, and the social problems connected with it go down. And, looking at the stats, since we started hammering drug education into kids at school, things have started to improve.

You seem to want to shelter children, to make sex taboo. That's what leads ot the problems. Or do you? What do you want, dunqn?--for you, what place in the world should sex have?
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Re:

Postby Lodestone on Fri May 12, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Senethro from 18:12, 12th May 2006
I would say this is something gone mad but I can't honestly be bothered. This case is unusual but people are just getting unneccessarily worked up because it involves sex and children (Oh, please think of them!) mixed in with substantial middle class resentment that people in poverty don't just die quietly and cleanly or something.


Thank you, Senethro.

Christ, dunqn you were oozing pathetic middle-class resentment there. Why do you feel such disgust, beyond reasons of pure self-elevating snobbery? And what are you going to contribute to society that elevates you so?
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Re:

Postby Senethro on Fri May 12, 2006 5:24 pm

DO[/B]NOTMOCKME
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Re:

Postby Bitterandtwisted on Fri May 12, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting ohhmy from 18:16, 12th May 2006

The boys who get the girls pregnant should get the snip.


Mutilation as a punishment issued to minors? Little harsh. Surely the girl is just as guilty?

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