Row over minder scheme for gay pupils

[Cain]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 67,00.html

Bit of a misleading headline this. It's minders, as in big burly types (though some kids DO have minders, but that's another story), but more like a buddy system, which is common and generally good.

But... primary children? That surprises me. Surely that just sexualises younger children further?

[hr]

I hold an element of surprise

[rubbermuffin]

You can't label young kids gay or straight, it's just wrong.



[hr]

'If something has to change then it always does'

[Gealle]

This is really quite disturbing; in my day (JESUS, I'm only 23 FFS) we didn't even get taught the basic facts of life until we were 12/13...

We now hear of 11 year old girls getting pregnant; 12 year old boys having 'relations'...

We seriously need discipline.

[mackie]

I don't think this would help at all. I'm gay, and I certainly would not have wanted this kind of thing when I was at primary school. It's just the same as saying all ethnic minority pupils should be given a 'minder' for fear of racial hatred. Kids are kids...the majority of gay people are going to face homophobia at some point. They don't need minders to protect them.

[Midget]

Yeah this is tackling the problem totally the wrong way, you need to stop the bullying not protect the victims more. Also what about kids who are the subject of homophobic bullying but aren't gay. Indeed I thought (hoped) that the twenty-first century would see an end to all this labelling and segregation, its a cliche I know but plenty of people aren't 100% gay and there's also plenty who aren't 100% straight, the gay/straight divide is a complete utter fucking illusion.

[hr]

IMAGE:img9.imgspot.com/u/04/241/18/160019.jpg "Little!"
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[Gealle]

Midget's hit it on the button.

There is rarely a night I'm out on the town and not asked if I'm gay.

Funnily enough, soon as I say 'no, I'm not' the girls come and dance with me...

...if only I was single >.<

[nighteyes]

It is a sad fact of todays society that children as young as 11 are getting pregnant. So you can not say that this proposal would further sexualise children - they are obviously over sexed anyway. It may be for lack of attention but I dont remember kids that young getting pregnant back in the 90's - not unless they were victims of rape.

But the idea of minders in primary school. Up until I was 14 I had no idea I was gay. I may have been a late bloomer, but I had no interest either way until then. So from my point of view this proposal is pointless, how may children of primary school age will even know whta gay means, never mind believe themselves to be gay.

It is the case that children do use "you are sooo gay!!" as the ultimate insult. Or at least it was when I was at school. There is another proposal to severly discipline children who use gay as an insult. The idea being if the word is used in this way, it predisposes the mindset in children that gay = bad. And so chances are, these children are more inclined to be homophobic when they find out what gay means, and to be afraid to come out if they are gay.

Midget is right. What needs to be done is to tackly homophobia in schools.

And another thing I am glad of is that they are to start teaching sex ed, but incorporating safe gay sex. The lack of knowledge from some gay people I have spoken to is terrifying. As well as targeting safe sex campaigns to heterosexuals, I think the government needs to address the homosexual comunity as well. Especially the lesbian or bi female community. As what I have found is that there is even less knowledge about safe sex in that community.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[tintin]

This is a really interesting conundrum. On the one hand you have total homophobic bullying in State schools, on the other you have total denial by the righteous Right.

I will admit that I went to a rather sheltered public school and prep school where this sort of thing just was not discussed. The word 'gay' was used as an insult rather than anything more than that. Sure there were gay people at my school - it goes with the territory. Yet it was not talked about. And that is probably the best place for it. When schools start discussing gay sex openly they may as well start voting Lib-Dem: it is something best confined to the underground rather than polite drawing-rooms.

There are gay people in this world - around 10% of the population if various estimates are to be believed. Yet it does not need to be thrust in the 90% of folk's faces who are not. They do not need lessons in school about gay sex and gay relationships. Yes, it should be obligatory to have some teacher available to talk to about one's homosexual/lesbian feelings at school, but not compulsory sex education lessons about it. That's just too much and anyway the majority of teenagers can't take the subject maturely at all.

[mackie]

Quoting tintin from 20:34, 19th Jun 2006

Yet it was not talked about. And that is probably the best place for it. When schools start discussing gay sex openly they may as well start voting Lib-Dem: it is something best confined to the underground rather than polite drawing-rooms.

Yet it does not need to be thrust in the 90% of folk's faces who are not. They do not need lessons in school about gay sex and gay relationships.

I completely disagree. Not talking about things harbours bad feelings and misunderstanding of the subjects that are being swept under the carpet. Straight people DO need lessons about gay relationships, to help them understand that they are no different from straight relationships and hopefully eradicate any hostility that may be brewing. Actually, your comments have really wound me up to be honest. Why should gay people then be taught about straight relationships and straight sex?! I don't agree with having these so called 'minders', but I do agree that homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism (to incorporate them all) should be openly talked about in schools. I sense a smack of Conservatism coming from you to be honest...

[macgamer]

This is another example of the Scottish Executive trying to find themselves something to legislate on. It doesn't need to be helpful to society, they'll do it anyway.

With regard to this proposal, it is as it first seems completely ridiculous to discuss this with primary school age children who do not understand such emotions.

It will only lead to greater confusion with their identities. This is completely irresponsible.

[nighteyes]

Quoting mackie from 21:54, 19th Jun 2006

Quoting tintin from 20:34, 19th Jun 2006

Yet it was not talked about. And that is probably the best place for it. When schools start discussing gay sex openly they may as well start voting Lib-Dem: it is something best confined to the underground rather than polite drawing-rooms.

Yet it does not need to be thrust in the 90% of folk's faces who are not. They do not need lessons in school about gay sex and gay relationships.

I completely disagree. Not talking about things harbours bad feelings and misunderstanding of the subjects that are being swept under the carpet. Straight people DO need lessons about gay relationships, to help them understand that they are no different from straight relationships and hopefully eradicate any hostility that may be brewing. Actually, your comments have really wound me up to be honest. Why should gay people then be taught about straight relationships and straight sex?! I don't agree with having these so called 'minders', but I do agree that homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism (to incorporate them all) should be openly talked about in schools. I sense a smack of Conservatism coming from you to be honest...

Im glad you replied. I was too angry myself to reply in a way that would make any sense in amongst the swearing.

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i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[rocky mountain]

Quoting tintin from 20:34, 19th Jun 2006
That's just too much and anyway the majority of teenagers can't take the subject maturely at all.

Like the majority of teenagers can talk about heterosexual sex maturely. Pupils need to be taught about gay sex as well so that everyone will know how to protect themselves. It also needs to be openely discussed instead of hushed up so that perhaps one day all of society will fully accept homosexuals.

[mackie]

Quoting nighteyes from 22:30, 19th Jun 2006

Im glad you replied. I was too angry myself to reply in a way that would make any sense in amongst the swearing.

Trust me, I had to take a few deep breaths before I could gather my thoughts, and even then I had to take a break from typing to swear at the screen and voice my utter disbelief!

[mackie]

I've just read tintins post on the Paganism thread...it seems this poster is against anything that is or dares to go against the so called status quo. What a boring individual you must be... I hope we never meet. Unless of course you're not being serious...but I highly doubt that.

[nighteyes]

Yes I read his post on this thread and thought that he was a dick. Then I read his post on the pagan soc thread and thought he was an utter dick. I get the impression that he is the kind of person I want to hit if we meet in person.

Safe sex needs to be discussed. Even straight guys sometimes have anal sex with their girlfriends, so protection need to be discused. Even if not in direct relation to gay couples. Staight couples also have oral sex, so again this needs to be brought up. Why some people would rather have generations catch sti's and continue with the increase of HIV/AIDS is beyond me.

Quoting mackie from 22:57, 19th Jun 2006
I've just read tintins post on the Paganism thread...it seems this poster is against anything that is or dares to go against the so called status quo. What a boring individual you must be... I hope we never meet. Unless of course you're not being serious...but I highly doubt that.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[grousefanatic]

Quoting mackie from 22:57, 19th Jun 2006
I've just read tintins post on the Paganism thread...it seems this poster is against anything that is or dares to go against the so called status quo. What a boring individual you must be... I hope we never meet. Unless of course you're not being serious...but I highly doubt that.

I am 97.5% certain that I am aware of who this person is in real life. It makes his rants a little more amusing.

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veni vidi nates calce concidi - i came, i saw, i kicked ass

[tintin]

Quoting nighteyes from 23:13, 19th Jun 2006
Yes I read his post on this thread and thought that he was a dick. Then I read his post on the pagan soc thread and thought he was an utter dick. I get the impression that he is the kind of person I want to hit if we meet in person.

Quoting mackie from 22:57, 19th Jun 2006
I've just read tintins post on the Paganism thread...it seems this poster is against anything that is or dares to go against the so called status quo. What a boring individual you must be... I hope we never meet. Unless of course you're not being serious...but I highly doubt that.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

It's really good that you can articulate your feelings in such a constructive manner. Well done. I guess you aren't able to make a good argument for what you believe because you have to resort to petty personal attacks rather than actually saying anything worthwhile. It's really rather amusing that you and the other couple of posters calling me a "dick" (now there's really mature - I thought most people stopped calling people that sort of thing when they were 11) would also like a civilised debate about homosexuality.

[tintin]

Quoting grousefanatic from 23:49, 19th Jun 2006
I am 97.5% certain that I am aware of who this person is in real life. It makes his rants a little more amusing.

[hr]

veni vidi nates calce concidi - i came, i saw, i kicked ass

Well I've never met you in "real life" - perhaps you would care to tell me who you are, so then I could laugh at you

[mackie]

Quoting tintin from 05:47, 20th Jun 2006

It's really rather amusing that you and the other couple of posters calling me a "dick" (now there's really mature - I thought most people stopped calling people that sort of thing when they were 11) would also like a civilised debate about homosexuality.

I never once called you a dick...so please, don't accuse me of it. I think I got my point across quite well in my first post thanks, without resorting to name calling.

[Midget]

I have met almost all these people in real life. tintin although right-wing is harmless and not particularly heterosexual acting in my view although I won't pass judgement on his sexuality.

He does admit the righteous right are silly, and that there is lots of homophobic bullying although why he says it is confined to State schools is beyond me. As is why tintin is so adamant that "gay sex" shouldn't be mentioned in school. Clearly a) sex ed should be taught b) it should include gay sex. In fact although only 10% or so of the country are so called "homosexuals" many more will have homosexual sex etc, and anyway as nighteyes so rightly points out there isn't really gay sex and straight sex, theres just dicks, cunts, arseholes, mouths, fingers etc being used in different combinations, so school needs to discuss these things anyway.

tintin is a rightwing heterosexual from a private school background, its difficult adapting to the 21st century under these conditions, I pity him in some way.

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