A question for the unionists

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To the unionists on this board: What are your positive arguments for keeping the union? Rising SNP support seems to be rattling Labour, but I'm unimpressed by their unionist arguments, which seem to rely on scaremongering rather than spelling out the benefits of remaining together - look at Gordon's fears of separated families, or Tony warning of a "constitutional nightmare".

Come on, unionist sinners, tell me the positive reasons why the union should continue, because I'm not convinced, and neither are a lot of other people, north and south of the border.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6185652.stm

I realise that, ultimately, it is up to nationalists to put forward the case for independence since that is the change from the status quo, but I'm interested to see if you've got anything more positive to say than the nat-baiting in which you take so much glee.

[AlenWatters]

Good question. With the old party on the up, even the beeb are getting in on the act by turning the question round - its great watching Jack McConnell squirm. Nobody has had the temerity to try it on Gordon Brown yet. I'm sure he'll be just as unable to provide an answer.

If I can save us some time here, if we can have answers that are not:

1)We fought together in Two World Wars, beating the true enemy (these damned Krauts!).

2)We have family ties. (But so do Scottish people to India, Poland, Ireland, Italy, Canada the US etc)

3)The Empire. (The sun has set on that one, sorry guys)

I'm sure there'll be others. And for the record, I hate fishing and oil - its all bullshit that gets us away from the main point.

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc/

[flarewearer]

My family are British, I am British, I share a common set of values and beliefs with the majority of British people, I like Britain. I can enjoy all the benefits of Scotland within Britain, but I could not enjoy the benefits of being British if Scotland were without.

Just because I do not see a distinction between "them" and "us" does not mean that I have to justify my Country and my way of life and why I am content with that to the likes of you.

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[DrAlex]

How about the crippling blow it would deal to the economy and Health Service, north and south of the border?

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"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[October]

Quoting DrAlex from 08:22, 27th Nov 2006
How about the crippling blow it would deal to the economy and Health Service, north and south of the border?

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"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

You're saying the NHS isn't crippled already?

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I'm Telling you.
It was the Ninja Robot Monkeys that did it.

[exnihilo]

I'll certainly post on here when I have a bit more time, but I'm just about to leave the house. Before I do, however, AlenWatters, you really ought not to mock arguments that have not been made, or it makes you as bad as the "nat-baiters".

[Guest]

Quoting exnihilo from 08:43, 27th Nov 2006
I'll certainly post on here when I have a bit more time, but I'm just about to leave the house. Before I do, however, AlenWatters, you really ought not to mock arguments that have not been made, or it makes you as bad as the "nat-baiters".

What, like yourself? Or are all of your comments regarding the SNP well thought out? My humblest apologies if so.

And feeling British is fair enough, if you do realise using that rationale will only get you humped in an election...And sorry criple the NHS? You would probably get rid of it, no? Pray tell me the figures that have led you to this conclusion.

[unregistered]

United we stand, divided we fall.

[DrAlex]

Quoting from 09:24, 27th Nov 2006
And sorry criple the NHS? You would probably get rid of it, no? Pray tell me the figures that have led you to this conclusion.

I'd answer your question, were it not for the abortion of grammar that has masked what it actually is.

Also, I'll go there: A question for the Nationalists, why?

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"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[McK]

Well, given that the SNP in particular promote the idea of 'personal independence', which they claim is so vital to the wellbeing of the nation and the individual, let me describe my concept of 'personal unionism'.

I was born British; my mother is Scottish, my father is English. I have been educated in both countries, and I have family and friends in both countries, many of whom - yourself included ascii - hover between the two dependent upon job and education prospects. On this basis, I feel that there is no reason to change the status quo. I feel of no less worth because I live and work in a country which is interdependent, which relies in part on its income and legislation from an umbrella entity. Indeed, it gives me a feeling of security. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I do not consider the union to be 'broke' no matter what tabloid nonsense is peddled or however many times I see Alex Salmond grinning smugly in the papers. Believe me, I am old enough to remember him doing the very same thing for six elections now and I have heard every one of his snide remarks, promises of an SNP breakthrough ad nauseam. (Incidentally, it is a great pity Donald Dewar is not alive today because he had a wonderful way of bursting the Salmond bubble of self-satisfaction.)

You may think the above to be entirely emotive and it is. But so is much of the propaganda espoused by nationalists.

In non-emotive terms I see a United Kingdom as a stronger negotiator for Scottish (and English and Welsh and NI) interests at the international forum. Certainly my experience of European Union law is that the UK has greater weight as a combined entity. In a post-independence EU Scotland would not, I am afraid, be a particularly forceful player. And, whether you like it or not, these things do matter.

In economic terms, I see no reason which has been articulated coherently why the deal Scotland gets under the Union is in any way disadvantageous. I have talked to Kenny McAskill (SNP MSP) and I have yet to be convinced that the union is 'robbing Scotland' of anything.

There are more points I could make, but these are the main ones. You asked why it should be kept, and that is what I think. Now back to revision, or I will fail my exams.

[exnihilo]

Quoting from 09:24, 27th Nov 2006
What, like yourself? Or are all of your comments regarding the SNP well thought out? My humblest apologies if so.

They're not mindless rants, they're my opinions based on my experiences and backed up with facts as I perceive them - is that enough? All I'm saying is that to answer the question for the unionists with parodies of their beliefs is pointless and removes your best argument for when they mischaracterise nationalist arguments. That's all.

[Iain]

Quoting McK from 15:44, 27th Nov 2006


In non-emotive terms I see a United Kingdom as a stronger negotiator for Scottish (and English and Welsh and NI) interests at the international forum. Certainly my experience of European Union law is that the UK has greater weight as a combined entity. In a post-independence EU Scotland would not, I am afraid, be a particularly forceful player.

In economic terms, I see no reason which has been articulated coherently why the deal Scotland gets under the Union is in any way disadvantageous. I have talked to Kenny McAskill (SNP MSP) and I have yet to be convinced that the union is 'robbing Scotland' of anything.

These two I'll respond on from the SNP point of view.

Scotland's representation via the UK within the EU is zero. I would rather have a few votes than none, since UK interests as a whole are voted for, frequently at a disadvantage to Scotland (fishing, sorry, is an example). John Swinney recently noted that the ability to argue a corner in the EU will turn votes/decisions your way. Ireland is small, it doesn't have a problem with the EU, same with Denmark (Swinneys example, the case in question I forget). Ask people in the SNP for examples where other small countries have sucessfully negotiated deals on various issues.

Secondly, its not just about the "deal" that we get, say in terms of money from the Westminster cash pot; it's about how much money Scotland can raise if it had its own system and a better economy. (This does not mean raising taxes, it means stimulating the economy to increase the tax take). We may not have a bad "deal" just now, but we could do better if we controlled cash ourselves. Yes there's the other side that an independent Scotland might do worse, but with all honesty, the SNP would not currently be fighting on economic independence if it wasn't likely we'd improve our lot.

Dr.Alex, as for "why"? Because we think that Scotland will be better off as a distinct entity, co-operating with the rest of the EU, in the Euro, participating as its own self at the UN, making policy that suits Scotland, not the UK economy as a whole, not fighting wars, using what's left of our oil revenue in a constructive manner and hurrying up turning Scotland into the renewable energy capital of Europe. Probably a dozen other reasons the nats might give you but those are mine.

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[Icarus]

Quoting Iain from 21:23, 27th Nov 2006

Scotland's representation via the UK within the EU is zero. I would rather have a few votes than none, since UK interests as a whole are voted for, frequently at a disadvantage to Scotland

I'm sorry but that's plainly rubbish. You're assuming the majority of Scotland's interests are at odds with the rest of the UK's. Scotland's representation in the EU would only be zero if everything that Britain argued for was bad for Scotland. As it is most of the things Britain stands for in the EU are good for Scotland. There may be a few individual things that may be at odds, fishing for example, but Scotland is so closely aligned with the rest of Britain that it's interests are represented in the EU along with everyone else's.

We may not have a bad "deal" just now, but we could do better if we controlled cash ourselves

I'm yet to hear someone convincingly argue that this is true. The economic or political clout on the world stage of a state of 5 million people would not equal that of a state of 60 million. And I can't reference a source for this, but doesn't Scotland actually get more money from the rest of Britain than it puts into it? Oh God, look at the poor wee country getting all it's revenue sucked out of it by Big Bad England... [/essay-induced displaced bitterness]

(Edited because I can't spell)

[Iain]

Icarus. On the EU; ask Ian Hudghton or Alyn Smith our MEP's for examples. I'm quite sure you can find contact details somewhere. Yes, there probably are issues where "we" might agree with Westminster, but there are a fair number on which we don't and as such we have no representation. I am not talking rubbish.

On the "deal". Well, I want the political clout of a small well-to-do nation trying to better itself, not to become some world power. Plenty nations manage to do this, Scotland can. Economic clout? We'd have the economic clout of the EU behind us. Having "clout" is not how I would view the Irelands of this world, more that they are competitive and successful.

And you've royally twisted what I said on Scotland managing its own cash-raising into some bitter argument. It was plain common sense that the more non-biased economist would put into numbers.

Alyn Smith MEP has EU members talking to him saying "why isn't Scotland independent yet?" all the time. Well they've seen something you unionists haven't...

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[McK]

Quoting Iain from 23:06, 27th Nov 2006
Icarus. On the EU; ask Ian Hudghton or Alyn Smith our MEP's for examples. I'm quite sure you can find contact details somewhere. Yes, there probably are issues where "we" might agree with Westminster, but there are a fair number on which we don't and as such we have no representation. I am not talking rubbish.

On the "deal". Well, I want the political clout of a small well-to-do nation trying to better itself, not to become some world power. Plenty nations manage to do this, Scotland can. Economic clout? We'd have the economic clout of the EU behind us. Having "clout" is not how I would view the Irelands of this world, more that they are competitive and successful.

And you've royally twisted what I said on Scotland managing its own cash-raising into some bitter argument. It was plain common sense that the more non-biased economist would put into numbers.

Alyn Smith MEP has EU members talking to him saying "why isn't Scotland independent yet?" all the time. Well they've seen something you unionists haven't...

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

Oh well clearly the EU members know best then. Like as not they want another small member state to manipulate for their own benefit, as France and Germany did with the smaller states during last year's budget negotiations.

Scotland has MEPs in the Parliament and it has representation through UK representatives on the Council of Ministers and on the European Council. I do not see a better position, EU-wise, for the country.

To say that UK is acting in any way 'England's best interests' rather than Scotlands at EC/EU level is just not true.

[DrAlex]

Quoting Iain from 21:23, 27th Nov 2006
...since UK interests as a whole are voted for, frequently at a disadvantage to Scotland (fishing, sorry, is an example).

If this is the SNP perspective, you've given me a whole new reason to oppose.

Fishing quotas are vital if the oceanic ecosystem is to survive. Recent evidence suggests that even the extinction of one minor species would cause the entire ecosystem to collapse. This is a global issue.

The SNP, I assume from your post, would reject fishing quotas and fish as much as they like to further Scottish fishermen. This is ignorant and short-sighted, and would only harm Scotland and the UK in the long run.

That last sentence is also how I feel about Scottish independence.

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"Listen to DrAlex."-Polli
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37100343

[ascii]

Quoting flarewearer from 07:51, 27th Nov 2006
My family are British, I am British, I share a common set of values and beliefs with the majority of British people, I like Britain. I can enjoy all the benefits of Scotland within Britain, but I could not enjoy the benefits of being British if Scotland were without.

Just because I do not see a distinction between "them" and "us" does not mean that I have to justify my Country and my way of life and why I am content with that to the likes of you.

"The likes of you." What does that mean? What a charming reply.

Anyway, what are the British values you speak of, and why are they unique to the British people?

If an independent Scotland remained in the EU, I can't think of many British benefits that you would be denied, unless your argument is independence -> poorer economy -> you suffer.

[ascii]

Quoting DrAlex from 08:22, 27th Nov 2006
How about the crippling blow it would deal to the economy and Health Service, north and south of the border?

A crippling blow to the economy - that's a possibility although lots of people would debate that with you.

A crippling blow to the health service - I don't agree, unless you mean that no more "English hand outs" means cut backs. A lot of health policy is devolved. Most of the news you hear about the NHS tends to affect England and Wales only. Whatever you think about the job Andy Kerr is doing, it doesn't follow that independence would lead to the NHS collapsing, north or south of the border.

[Icarus]

Quoting Iain from 23:06, 27th Nov 2006

Economic clout? We'd have the economic clout of the EU behind us. Having "clout" is not how I would view the Irelands of this world, more that they are competitive and successful.

Pah. Have you been to Ireland? They can't even build a single god damn road without sucking up to Europe to get the majority of the funding. And the fact that they get European handouts doesn't show the economic strength of their standing in Europe, it shows that they're so bloody poor they can't even afford to build their own roads. And try going outside Dublin and telling me Ireland's got a good economy. I'm Irish and I agree with most of the stereotypes people throw at the country. It's a poor, backward, potato-orientated little isle, that relies entirely on European handouts and American tourists wandering around its tiny little villages to marvel at the 'quaint locals.' If that's what you want Scotland to end up as, as some poor, tourism dependent, un-dynamic blip on the world stage, then good for you. But anyone who allegedly wants what's 'best for Scotland' should recognize that power matters in the world, and being part of one of the top eight economies in the entire world gives you more pull to get your own way, to make changes that benefit you, than if you're so poor you can't even afford to build your own roads.

[Lid]

The logistics of it would be absolutely mind-bendingly bizarre. Do you have a monarchy? No. OK, what happens to crown property? I'm assuming The Queen would keep it, it being her own.

Renewable energy capital of Europe? Where will the money come from to finance such a project? Raise taxes? People will just go elsewhere. Lower taxes, revenues decrease to levels below what is presently capable of sustaining the welfare state that people have grown comfortable to, and rely on.

So many things are ill-thought-out, the mechanics of the situation need much more thought, before anyone moves for nationalism. What money does Scotland have? If it were to normalise its currency in line with the Euro, how would that work? Is it just the money that the RBS, the Cyldesdale and the BoS have (bring back the Gold Standard)? Or do we take the investment that is currently made in Scotland, minus the treasury input that bankrolls a good slab of the services of Scotland?

And my final point. And I agree with DrAlex here. What good would it honestly do? Most SNP supporters seem to take the stance of 'let's break away, so we can say we're not British, so we're distinct from the English'. Not being part of something is not a good reason for being something else. We would, of course, see another 'Sick man of Europe'.

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We are not drunks, we are multi-millionaires