Top 10 toughest courses at St Andrews

[exnihilo]

I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that.

[sat]

We are told by lecturers that it is necessary to mark - and more to the point, assess - tutorial questions since "no-one would do the questions otherwise".

For one thing, I don't quite believe that honours (theoretical) physicists wouldn't do their tutorial sheets: most are interested in their subject and are conscientious.

It also seems to me that the better students are then being placed at a disadvantage since those who can't be bothered to do some work for their subject end up causing this work to be assessed. As I've already pointed out, the assessment then gets in the way of more meaningful discussion because the lecturer is unwilling to discuss answers.

A friend suggested that a better way of assessing might be to ask for small projects. These would allow the students to do something real and meaningful (in the same way that arts students will do lots of reading for an essay), and not simply answer little questions for marks.

[Thalia]

I prefer continuous assessment to exams - it gives you an opportunity to think about and analyze the topics being taught and allows you to be tested on your ability to take the information and find what's important. I don't, personally, think that exams should have the weighting that they do (in psych they're always worth roughly 75%). Your ability to remember things under pressure and come up with a decent argument to a question is important but i don't think that it's more important than the skills needed to write continuous assessment essays on the subject.

[hr]

You've been nothing but an angel every day of your life and now you wonder what it's like to be damned...

[theonlyone]

Quoting Thalia from 17:44, 28th Jan 2007
I prefer continuous assessment to exams - it gives you an opportunity to think about and analyze the topics being taught and allows you to be tested on your ability to take the information and find what's important. I don't, personally, think that exams should have the weighting that they do (in psych they're always worth roughly 75%). Your ability to remember things under pressure and come up with a decent argument to a question is important but i don't think that it's more important than the skills needed to write continuous assessment essays on the subject.

[hr]

You've been nothing but an angel every day of your life and now you wonder what it's like to be damned...

I dont know what continous assesment is like in Psych, but in Physics, it's not easy, and perhaps, as I have found, no amount of thinking and analyzing, and looking in books can get the question to work out the way you want it to. It's fairer if the questions have been vetted, so that they are set at an appropriate standard, like they are in exams. Fair enough give us difficult questions, but let us talk to the lecturers about them, and don't mark us on them.

The project idea is much better, this way you could look into an area of the subject that interests you, that way people in general are more inclined to work, and if it is of interest, it will become less of a chore, and hopefully better marks would prevail, if that is what they wanted. But projects would also give students "transferable skills", and they do seem so keen on these in the Physics department....

Instead of discouraging us with questions that are too hard for us to handle, as students can often become disheartened with continous assesment questions, which can have a kncok on effect to the rest of the semster.

And to be quite honest if honours students can't work on their own, without tutors breathing down their necks, they should't be here. Lecturers should just leave us, and treat us like the adults we are supposed to be. And those who can't hack it should get out, and get a job, where they are told what to do continously.

Perhaps, some one should raise this to members of staff....

[Frank]

Quoting Thalia from 17:44, 28th Jan 2007
I prefer continuous assessment to exams - it gives you an opportunity to think about and analyze the topics being taught and allows you to be tested on your ability to take the information and find what's important.

Strangely enough, being one of the (seemingly many) Physicists on here, I do agree. The above should be the case. Unfortunately in our experiences, it'd seem, the CA simply doesn't do what it is supposed to. Certainly for the 'study circles' I'm part of it encouraged (by making necessary) discussion on the topic. However, I'd be keen to see how it'd have turned out had we had to do it autonomously without worry about being marked for it.

Conversely though, the main problem is that we simply learn how to disregard bits of the course once we work out how the exam is formatted. If only there was a way of examining the entire course.

As for which is the hardest: of course it's subjective! Doesn't mean we can't discuss it though!

For my part I'm quite surprised that Maths and Physics were put second. It is certainly revealing about how people percieve difficulty, and which parts of a course would constitute difficult. (Quantum Mechanics 1, for instance, was fine conceptually, I've just no idea how to apply the knowledge...)

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Thalia]

Well, in third year, two of our essays were aimed towards designing experiments to study a subject and in another module we had to come up with a project and write about it then do a presentation. Ever since first year though, in psychology we have had projects as part of our assessment, although in first and second year we were given the topic and did the experiments as a class. When it comes to subjects where research is carried out through experimentation, you'd think that would be an important skill to train the students in - surely in fourth year physics there's a compulsory project like there is in psych?

And i haven't found a problem with lecturers holding back when you ask questions - they all seem to love discussing their favourite topics with people who're interested in them. Although the problem there might be that no matter what answer a lecturer gives, there's always an alternative answer out there and i suppose that isn't always the case in physics.

[hr]

You've been nothing but an angel every day of your life and now you wonder what it's like to be damned...

[theonlyone]

Quoting Thalia from 18:55, 28th Jan 2007
Well, in third year, two of our essays were aimed towards designing experiments to study a subject and in another module we had to come up with a project and write about it then do a presentation. Ever since first year though, in psychology we have had projects as part of our assessment, although in first and second year we were given the topic and did the experiments as a class. When it comes to subjects where research is carried out through experimentation, you'd think that would be an important skill to train the students in - surely in fourth year physics there's a compulsory project like there is in psych?

And i haven't found a problem with lecturers holding back when you ask questions - they all seem to love discussing their favourite topics with people who're interested in them. Although the problem there might be that no matter what answer a lecturer gives, there's always an alternative answer out there and i suppose that isn't always the case in physics.

[hr]

You've been nothing but an angel every day of your life and now you wonder what it's like to be damned...

yeah in fourth year there is the project. But prior to that, there isn't really anything major.

It would seem there are many problems within the physics department.....

[Altheia]

I found Greek infinitely harder than Latin. Of course, this probably had to do with the fact that I had taken Latin for six years before coming to university, whereas I started Greek at uni and they take you through it pretty quickly. You don't get a lot of time for it to click. But Latin is ultimately logical, with hard and fast rules that you can learn and deal with, and it doesn't have a lot of exceptions to the rules. In Greek, it seems like the words that follow the rules are in the minority.

[hr]

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. - Mark Twain

[Gubbins]

Quoting theonlyone from 19:38, 28th Jan 2007
It would seem there are many problems within the physics department.....

If you do find any problems, I'm sure the staff would like to hear your feedback. We spent the night of our 4th year barbeque (after narrowly winning the half-yard challenge) pointing out all the department's faults to a very intersted (or he seemed to be at the time) Keith Horne. He suggested we made a list, because apparently we can up with some useful stuff. If you can do the same, I think they'd thank you for it.

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.

[sat]

Quoting theonlyone from 19:38, 28th Jan 2007
It would seem there are many problems within the physics department.....

I know of people who'd agree.

Quoting Gubbins from 21:38, 28th Jan 2007


If you do find any problems, I'm sure the staff would like to hear your feedback. We spent the night of our 4th year barbeque (after narrowly winning the half-yard challenge) pointing out all the department's faults to a very intersted (or he seemed to be at the time) Keith Horne. He suggested we made a list, because apparently we can up with some useful stuff. If you can do the same, I think they'd thank you for it.

There is a teaching committee, I believe (and I know people on it). It's more or less a case of raising it with the appropriate people: either your class rep for the Physics SSC (not the Union's SSC), the SRC Member for Science, or possibly getting in touch with the Director of Teaching/Head of School/individual lecturers.

I think that sometimes individual lecturers tend to brush off complaints about assessment because they expect that the complainst are just coming from moaning students who can't be bothered to work. So, a well organised explanation of the problem (to the lecturers) is probably a good thing.

[theonlyone]

Quoting sat from 23:42, 28th Jan 2007

Quoting theonlyone from 19:38, 28th Jan 2007
It would seem there are many problems within the physics department.....

I know of people who'd agree.

Quoting Gubbins from 21:38, 28th Jan 2007


If you do find any problems, I'm sure the staff would like to hear your feedback. We spent the night of our 4th year barbeque (after narrowly winning the half-yard challenge) pointing out all the department's faults to a very intersted (or he seemed to be at the time) Keith Horne. He suggested we made a list, because apparently we can up with some useful stuff. If you can do the same, I think they'd thank you for it.

There is a teaching committee, I believe (and I know people on it). It's more or less a case of raising it with the appropriate people: either your class rep for the Physics SSC (not the Union's SSC), the SRC Member for Science, or possibly getting in touch with the Director of Teaching/Head of School/individual lecturers.

I think that sometimes individual lecturers tend to brush off complaints about assessment because they expect that the complainst are just coming from moaning students who can't be bothered to work. So, a well organised explanation of the problem (to the lecturers) is probably a good thing.

Well, shall I reveal my secret identity to you "sat"? Im on the teaching committee, and so I know that there is a meeting on Thursday 1st Feb. Sadly I can't be there. But I could type up an explantion, and some proposals, and e-mail it to Bruce. Im sure he would see what they thought, he usualy is quite helpful on these things. I could e-mail it to you as well, maybe you could improve it? Let me know what you think.

[foo]

Quoting theonlyone from 18:21, 28th Jan 2007

I dont know what continous assesment is like in Psych, but in Physics, it's not easy, and perhaps, as I have found, no amount of thinking and analyzing, and looking in books can get the question to work out the way you want it to. .. Fair enough give us difficult questions, but let us talk to the lecturers about them, and don't mark us on them. ..


Instead of discouraging us with questions that are too hard for us to handle, as students can often become disheartened with continous assesment questions, which can have a kncok on effect to the rest of the semster.

In my experience, the c/a questions are set at a realistic level -- unlike exam questions, which due to the circumstances in which they must be undertaken tend towards the Mickey Mouse. If you're struggling with the c/a at this level, you need be concerned.

And those who can't hack it should get out, and get a job, where they are told what to do continously.

You said it, pal!

[maenad]

Quoting exnihilo from 15:32, 28th Jan 2007
I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that.

Actually, haven't most people in the thread been pointing out that you can't really make a list?

[hr]

Tommy can you hear me?

[Dirac]

Quoting foo from 06:42, 29th Jan 2007

Quoting theonlyone from 18:21, 28th Jan 2007

I dont know what continous assesment is like in Psych, but in Physics, it's not easy, and perhaps, as I have found, no amount of thinking and analyzing, and looking in books can get the question to work out the way you want it to. .. Fair enough give us difficult questions, but let us talk to the lecturers about them, and don't mark us on them. ..


Instead of discouraging us with questions that are too hard for us to handle, as students can often become disheartened with continous assesment questions, which can have a kncok on effect to the rest of the semster.

In my experience, the c/a questions are set at a realistic level -- unlike exam questions, which due to the circumstances in which they must be undertaken tend towards the Mickey Mouse. If you're struggling with the c/a at this level, you need be concerned.

And those who can't hack it should get out, and get a job, where they are told what to do continously.

You said it, pal!

Foo,

I'm not sure what level you are at, but to say that you should be concerned if you can't do the continuous assessment is somewhat stupid. I was not really able to do many of the tutorial questions in Quantum Field Theory last semester, so maybe give them a try and see how you get on. I then ask you do the exam, which i assure you had no questions verging on "Mickey Mouse". Another example would be the continuous assessment found in Ulf's Classical Mechanics course.

My opinion on what the hardest course is, is obviously somewhat redundant due to bias, but i would say that MPhys Theoretical Physics is pretty hard - both conceptually and mathematically. Additionally, this is definitely made worse by the problems within the Physics department.

[exnihilo]

Quoting maenad from 11:37, 29th Jan 2007
Actually, haven't most people in the thread been pointing out that you can't really make a list?

Actually, no. Most have been talking about whether Greek is harder than Latin or Physics than Maths and generally querying the order of the list, there have been about half a dozen posts questioning the very premise of the list.

[sat]

Quoting foo from 06:42, 29th Jan 2007


In my experience, the c/a questions are set at a realistic level -- unlike exam questions, which due to the circumstances in which they must be undertaken tend towards the Mickey Mouse. If you're struggling with the c/a at this level, you need be concerned.

No, this isn't quite the point. If the questions are hard, well then that's fine. The questions ought to be challenging. The problem *isn't* that we're given question sheets to do.

The problem is that they're *assessed*. Of course: give the students questions and problems to do, but don't tie them up in all this assessment stuff.

Another problem that arises from C/A - but this has been in more specific cases and isn't part of the more general issue - is that the questions can be ambiguous, yet they don't appear to be vetted by anyon other than the lecturer. One is often unsure what the question actually means. In UN-assessed work, that's fine, because we can simply have a think about it and raise it at the tutorial. In assessed work, we're left wondering what they want, and it becomes a case of "how can I get these marks?".

[maenad]

Quoting exnihilo from 12:37, 29th Jan 2007

Quoting maenad from 11:37, 29th Jan 2007
Actually, haven't most people in the thread been pointing out that you can't really make a list?

Actually, no. Most have been talking about whether Greek is harder than Latin or Physics than Maths and generally querying the order of the list, there have been about half a dozen posts questioning the very premise of the list.

Debating their own subjects. I think most people realise you can't make a list across the entire university, so there's no need to be all smug about how you're clever enough to realise this.

[hr]

Tommy can you hear me?

[exnihilo]

If that's what you took from my posts, you're wrong and I think you've missed the point of most of the posts on this thread. but no doubt your sense of superiority allows you to feel better about insulting me.

[Nepos]

Quoting exnihilo from 12:37, 29th Jan 2007
Actually, no. Most have been talking about whether Greek is harder than Latin

That's just one person, really, and nobody's replying to her. At all.

[exnihilo]

You're obviously reading a different thread to me, I just went back and counted seven different users who have made comparisons between Greek and Latin. And if you'd quoted the whole of my sentence, there are at least as many again on the Maths versus Physics so what exactly was your point again? Other than wrong, that is.