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Unfair bank charges

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Re:

Postby Captain_Spanky on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting Gubbins from 16:03, 21st Feb 2007
As an aside, I find the phrase "money doesn't grow on trees" to be mildly ironic, since (before the introduction of cotton/linen) money was predominantly made from them.

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...but then again, that is only my opinion.


I guess that's why banks have so many branches.

But seriously to all the people bleating about it "not being fair": Only in school were their prizes for everyone so that it was "fair" and no one felt left out. In the pseudo not quite real world we live in levels of responsibility are slowly forced upon us, as is the realisation that HEY! life isn't fucking fair. I mean do you whinge to your parents when you get a 2:2 or a 3rd because it's not "fair" even though you did no work? I think bloody not. Man the fuck up or kill yourself.

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Re:

Postby Rufus on Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting Captain_Spanky from 19:49, 21st Feb 2007
Quoting Gubbins from 16:03, 21st Feb 2007
As an aside, I find the phrase "money doesn't grow on trees" to be mildly ironic, since (before the introduction of cotton/linen) money was predominantly made from them.

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.


I guess that's why banks have so many branches.

But seriously to all the people bleating about it "not being fair": Only in school were their prizes for everyone so that it was "fair" and no one felt left out. In the pseudo not quite real world we live in levels of responsibility are slowly forced upon us, as is the realisation that HEY! life isn't fucking fair. I mean do you whinge to your parents when you get a 2:2 or a 3rd because it's not "fair" even though you did no work? I think bloody not. Man the fuck up or kill yourself.

[hr]

Beatrice - Darling. Dearest. Dead.


Rancid school prize analogy.

I regret saying that money was too damn tedious to think about earlier in the thread. I was being flippant, and of course it's important to be aware of staying on top of your finances (I've learned this from my own frivolous spending in the past).

Banks charging their customers relentlessly and needlessly is not merely unfair but practically immoral; primarily because it keeps those on a low income in the red. Using the 'this is the real world, grow up and take responsibilty for your own actions' card is just ridiculous and tantamount to perpetuating and accepting injustice just because this is the big bad world and the big bad world means being screwed over once in a while.

Nobody is saying bank charges are wrong and should be abolished, banks are well within their rights to charge when their service appears to be being abused. The problem (as has been said on this thread ad nauseum) is the amount the bank charges and the fact that these charges can be heaped one on top of the other turning the initial charge into a substantial debt.

I shall now point out the idealistic obvious: Banks need to throw their customers a rope, and stop grinding the poor into the dirt.
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Re:

Postby Captain_Spanky on Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Rufus from 23:23, 21st Feb 2007
Quoting Captain_Spanky from 19:49, 21st Feb 2007
Quoting Gubbins from 16:03, 21st Feb 2007
As an aside, I find the phrase "money doesn't grow on trees" to be mildly ironic, since (before the introduction of cotton/linen) money was predominantly made from them.

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.


I guess that's why banks have so many branches.

But seriously to all the people bleating about it "not being fair": Only in school were their prizes for everyone so that it was "fair" and no one felt left out. In the pseudo not quite real world we live in levels of responsibility are slowly forced upon us, as is the realisation that HEY! life isn't fucking fair. I mean do you whinge to your parents when you get a 2:2 or a 3rd because it's not "fair" even though you did no work? I think bloody not. Man the fuck up or kill yourself.

[hr]

Beatrice - Darling. Dearest. Dead.




Banks charging their customers relentlessly and needlessly is not merely unfair but practically immoral; primarily because it keeps those on a low income in the red. Using the 'this is the real world, grow up and take responsibilty for your own actions' card is just ridiculous and tantamount to perpetuating and accepting injustice just because this is the big bad world and the big bad world means being screwed over once in a while.


No one is being ground in to the dirt, christ you'd think this was fucking Charles Dickens.

And why is it rediculous when that's exactly how it is? I'm sorry the world isn't some big ass hippy love in, with a nice white bearded God sitting in the corner freely dispensing justice in a well defined and metered manner, but there you go. As I said no one said life was going to be fair, either you cope, or you kill youself and free up some space on this densely populated shit hole. To be honest I'm not pessamistic about the world at all it just really irks me that, at our age, there are still idiots who think the world actually revolves around some outside form of morals and fail to realise that morality fairness and the like are entirely individual, and the "fair" part is trying your damndest to make your vision fit in with everyone elses.

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Re:

Postby Gubbins on Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting Captain_Spanky from 03:17, 22nd Feb 2007
No one is being ground in to the dirt, christ you'd think this was fucking Charles Dickens.


Well, they are, but it's by their own actions. Anyone who already has the bank sending concerned letters, then goes and buys a boat (as one of our neighbours did) should not be surprised when the bank manager phones them up and asks what the hell they're doing.

...it just really irks me that, at our age, there are still idiots who think the world actually revolves around some outside form of morals and fail to realise that morality fairness and the like are entirely individual, and the "fair" part is trying your damndest to make your vision fit in with everyone elses.


Broadly speaking, there are a number of outside morals to which British law (and therefore its subjects) adhere: basically "do unto others as they would do unto you" and that one's actions should be for the benefit of the country's society in general. Obviously this doesn't extend to the minutae of everyday life, and in other countries it may be based more heavily on religious beliefs or the whims of a dictat, but the principle is fairly sound here.

You wouldn't expect someone to "borrow" money from you without agreement, but then one shouldn't expect the agrieved party to screw you over for everything you (haven't) got.

Life isn't fair, but that doesn't stop us from making it as close to fair as we can.

[hr]

...but then again, that is only my opinion.
...then again, that is only my opinion.
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Re:

Postby Rosanna on Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:13 pm

WWW.bankcharges.info

IM going to stay out of the debate about whether or not people deserve this, but using this website I was able to claim back all the charges I had ever incurred in my current account.

Couldn't be simpler- they have a standard letter template, into which you fill your details (name, address, account number etc) as well as details of any charges you have incurred- this is a lot easier if you have an internet banking account as you can just copy and paste the information. Otherwise its just a case of going through your statements and filling in the info from there.

I sent my bank this letter, they replied saying that they weren't going to refund as the charges were in the terms of the account (the website said they would do this) so I printed and sent the second letter (similar to the first but a bit more militant) and within a month the bank had quietly put all the funds back into my account- it amounted to over 400 pounds in total.

So yeah, that was a pretty useful start to my term. Honestly, its worth doing, its literally just a case of printing and sending these letters. Good luck to the original poster and anyone else who tries!
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Re:

Postby dc on Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting Steveo from 12:28, 21st Feb 2007
Quoting shinyhappyperson from 11:44, 21st Feb 2007
Well. if you are prepared to pay a punitive charge on your account, which the bank can in no way justify, and which is illegal by the Banking Code without even so much as a complaint then you deserve to be charged it.


You know why I deserved to be charged it? Because I was irresponsible, but you know what, it taught me a lesson in fiscal responsibility, a lesson a lot of people need to learn.

It's just another shoddy excuse not to take responsibility.Sit up, grow up and start acting like responsible adults, rather than petulent children who can't manage their own money.


Well firstly on a side note the banks aren't there to teach responsibility.

If you don't mind having money taken from you for no reason, in that it is not at all related to the losses incurred by the bank, then fine. But I'm sure far more people don't want to be bullied in this way by banks.

I mean, it's practically analogous to stealing a penny sweet and being given a 10 year jail sentence. Or stealing a post-it note from the Old Union Reception and being chucked out of Uni. The point is (in the most extreme case) that going 1 pence over an overdraft limit doesn't merit such a huge punishment. It is a matter of principle.

Whether or not the account holder is irresponsible with their money is completely irrelevant to the fact that account holders are currently being charged by banks for no reason other than greed.
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Re:

Postby papercutheart on Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:47 pm

Dammit, how could we have been so wrong - 30 quid is blatantly the same as a ten year jail sentence or being chucked out of uni - I take back everything I've said in favour of banks - burn the witch!
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Re:

Postby munchingfoo on Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:55 pm

It doesn't matter which one of you is correct in this case. The charges are NOT to be used as a punitive measure, this is illegal.

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Re:

Postby flarewearer on Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:21 pm

Ah, it wouldn't all be so laughable if people weren't reclaiming their bank charges for the sole purpose of drinking them

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Re:

Postby exnihilo on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:01 am

It's odd, isn't it, that the bank informed you of all these potential charges for misuse of their overdraft facility - which they provide to you for nothing (it's really not your money) and then you bleat when they enforce them.

I grant you that statute law supersedes the terms and conditions issued by the bank, but surely you did read them, did agree to them and, as an adult were in a position to accept the responsibilities they placed upon you.

Fine, make a claim if you have accidentally gone over by a trivial amount, but what we're seeing now is people regularly, habitually, and purposefully going over their limit, and then firing off a form letter to demand it back.

Sure, the law is the law, but the spirit of should be as important as the letter; just as the bank should not be able to take you for a ride neither should you be able to take them for granted. Expect to see this all tightened up in the not very distant future, and expect to see customers bear the costs for a few people who can't, or won't, look after their own finances.
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Re:

Postby KateBush on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:29 am

Well said, that man!

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Re:

Postby flarewearer on Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting exnihilo from 01:01, 25th Feb 2007
It's odd, isn't it, that the bank informed you of all these potential charges for misuse of their overdraft facility - which they provide to you for nothing (it's really not your money) and then you bleat when they enforce them.

I grant you that statute law supersedes the terms and conditions issued by the bank, but surely you did read them, did agree to them and, as an adult were in a position to accept the responsibilities they placed upon you.

Fine, make a claim if you have accidentally gone over by a trivial amount, but what we're seeing now is people regularly, habitually, and purposefully going over their limit, and then firing off a form letter to demand it back.

Sure, the law is the law, but the spirit of should be as important as the letter; just as the bank should not be able to take you for a ride neither should you be able to take them for granted. Expect to see this all tightened up in the not very distant future, and expect to see customers bear the costs for a few people who can't, or won't, look after their own finances.


I was going to say exactly that, but I couldn't spell all those long words like "bank" and "neither" :)

My money saving tip is if you don't want overdraft fees, dont spend your student loan on drink

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Re:

Postby bdw on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting exnihilo from 01:01, 25th Feb 2007
It's odd, isn't it, that the bank informed you of all these potential charges for misuse of their overdraft facility - which they provide to you for nothing (it's really not your money) and then you bleat when they enforce them.

I grant you that statute law supersedes the terms and conditions issued by the bank, but surely you did read them, did agree to them and, as an adult were in a position to accept the responsibilities they placed upon you.

Fine, make a claim if you have accidentally gone over by a trivial amount, but what we're seeing now is people regularly, habitually, and purposefully going over their limit, and then firing off a form letter to demand it back.

Sure, the law is the law, but the spirit of should be as important as the letter; just as the bank should not be able to take you for a ride neither should you be able to take them for granted. Expect to see this all tightened up in the not very distant future, and expect to see customers bear the costs for a few people who can't, or won't, look after their own finances.


Your point on contractual certainty is a good one - the commercial counterparty to the consumer should be entitled to rely on contracts that it has concluded in the ordinary course of its business, including the terms for breach thereof. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that there should be few exceptions to this basic principle of the common law system (unfair exclusion and limitation clauses and penalty clauses being two sensible carve-outs).

I would argue that these claims against the banks are actually notionally within the spirit of the law. The right of a consumer, as a contractual party, to claim that a liquidated damages mechanism for the breach of a term is unenforceable as a penalty clause is now, as you say, black letter law (as a result of European regulation). However this only echoes the long-held common law position that, where a liquidated damages mechanism is specifically provided instead of reliance on common law contract law principles, these LDs should represent a genuine pre-estimate of the loss incurrable by the injured party. As a matter of contract law, statute and public policy, the spirit of the law dictates that the remedies in damages for a breach of contract should be restricted to compensation for actual or expected losses flowing from that breach. Where a contractual provision does not reflect this underlying principle of contractual remedies in damages, it appears equitable that this be a limit on the parties' freedom to contract, particularly where one party is a consumer, with the relative lack of commercial and negotiating leverage associated with that role.

The frustrating part of all of this is that the courts are gagging for the opportunity to rule on these claims as it could be argued that there is no breach in the first place (as the "disproportionate" charges are generally characterised as an increased service charge rather than as a penalty for a breach of contract) and therefore these are not penalty clauses as perceived by common law and statute.

I would submit that more flagrant and inconscionable examples of the erosion of the freedom to contract and contractual certainty are present in the European Distance Selling Directive, "Doorstep Selling" Directive and "Package Travel" Directive, with their "cooling off" periods during which it is possible for the consumer to cancel the contract.

Finally, I think you're right that we'll all end up paying for our bank accounts, which penalises the more responsible of us in the long term. I noted with interest that the CEOs of Barclays and Natwest (I think?) had contrary views on this concept. As Barclays dismissed the possibility of implementing this, the cynical part of me thought that this is the first of many attempts to fend off challenges to the banks under competition law if account-running costs are introduced across the industry (would there be any alternative means for the consumer to access banking services without such charges and would there be real efforts by the banks to undercut their competitors on such charges? Could this be viewed as a horizontal arrangement distorting competition in the market?).

Blimey that was long-winded.
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Re:

Postby Gealle on Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:16 pm

I trust you either mean Gordon Pell, CEO of Retail Markets at RBSG, or Sir Fred Goodwin himself. Unless, of course, you mean the managing director of Natwest Retail?

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Re:

Postby bdw on Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting Gealle from 14:16, 25th Feb 2007
I trust you either mean Gordon Pell, CEO of Retail Markets at RBSG, or Sir Fred Goodwin himself. Unless, of course, you mean the managing director of Natwest Retail?

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Funky flunky munky...


Hmm. Perhaps I ought to have given that part a bit of research prior to tip-tapping away. It was the incoming Nationwide BS CEO who publically mooted the introduction of the account charges. Apologies for the lack of clarity.
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Re:

Postby Gealle on Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:09 pm

That's alright. Just that it gets tiring trying to explain to so many people that RBS owns Natwest all the time.

[hr]

Funky flunky munky...
So someone asked me "What is it you do?". I thought about it for a minute. Then I thought about it a little more. All the while I probably looked like I was staring in to space, struggling for an answer. And I was. There was only one response I could really give.

"I make sure the shit stays off the fan."
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Re:

Postby Midget on Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:19 pm

I have to say I really agree with exnihilo, in society on has to think about the broader perspective. It may seem fun to do a Kenny and make a few bob suing left right and centre (no win no fee has a lot to answer for). But in the end we end up with a health and safety obsessed culture of paranoid businesses. That and companies factor in being sued so all the customers have to pay more.

And as has already been said Mr M sues, Mr M gets money, Mr M spends it on drink, Mr M looses track of money/car/etc. Mr M gets in trouble with bank etc then back to the beginning.

Yes I know Kenny I'm not perfect, but I hurt myself in Tesco once (sober) and had to go to hospital, and I hate Tesco and could of tried getting some money but I knew it was my fault so didn't even consider it.


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Re:

Postby Midget on Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:50 pm

I think I was bit harsh. I don't like people suing for personal injury, particularly when its a public body like the NHS, I really don't see what it achieves.

However if a bank has illegally taken money off you then you have every right to get the money back. But as to additional compensation for "distress", how can you put a monetary value on distress? Let alone prove you were distressed.

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Re:

Postby Kenny MacDonald on Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:34 pm

I would certainly agree with the previous poster that reclaiming charges is actually within the spirit of the law. Scots law takes a reparative role; it only seeks to restore the injured party to its position before the contractual breach. Punitive damages, which the bank in effect are charging, are not recognised in Scots law.

I see some people here seem to suggest the charges are a useful deterrent and encourage people to act responsibly. In that case, what the bank is essentially doing is holding the charges in terrorem over the consumer - which the Lord Chancellor suggested was the essence of an (unenforceble) penalty in the case of Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Company Limited v Don Jose Ramos Ysquierdo y Castaneda and Others [1905] AC 6

The "distress and inconvenience", which I claimed was for taking £188 in bank charges in June 06 as I was suffering from that weird body wasting disease and not able to work. It is my right as a citizen to make such a claim if I feel it is appropriate and for the court to decide on its merits. I previously had not incurred charges nor am I in the habit of doing so now for that matter.

"Distress and inconvenience" is not a claim for personal injury as you appear to suggest Seth. The relevant authority on this matter is Angela Mack -v- Glasgow City Council, 30 March 2006 (Court of Session).

In any case regarding "distress" Mr Ewin, you are lucky yourself for not being sued yourself on that matter after that act which I dare not speak of that you did perform at my afterparty 2 weeks ago in front of everyone. And we both know what I'm talking about here.

Quoting Midget from 13:50, 26th Feb 2007
I think I was bit harsh. I don't like people suing for personal injury, particularly when its a public body like the NHS, I really don't see what it achieves.

However if a bank has illegally taken money off you then you have every right to get the money back. But as to additional compensation for "distress", how can you put a monetary value on distress? Let alone prove you were distressed.

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Re:

Postby Midget on Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:51 pm

Yes, but the bank had nothing to do with your illness. I agree with what you say about the bank being in the wrong though, and I don't personally hold banks in very high esteem so in some ways I think you were right, I just worry about the spread of the culture of litigation

On a separate note I am considering denying St Andrews my presence in the future after the ridicule I seem to have received after my last visit, still it shows how little happens in the wee town that its still gossip material.



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