General or get expelled?

[Curious]

Hi guys

I was wondering seeing as people say a general degree is useless why does it offer them?

Would it not be better in some ways to just get expelled at the end of second year instead of them roping you in for another year, taking another year of your money and giving you a useless degree at the end of it?

And why doesnt St Andrews offer non-Honours degress in your subject area e.g. BSc Mathematics just without the (Hons) on the end? Oxbridge, Durham Edinburgh etc offer this and are just as good as St Andrews if not better in some ways, so why the big difference?

Just wondered what sinnerites thought, thanks.

[Jono]

Quoting Curious from 16:48, 29th Mar 2007


I was wondering seeing as people say a general degree is useless why does it offer them?

Call me cynical but;

...taking another year of your money and giving you a useless degree at the end of it?

that seems to be the measure of it!

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[David Bean]

What you have to realise is that most people who get Generals don't simply come to the end of second year and face a straight choice between taking a General and leaving, because of lack of previous effort. It's not quite that simple. Rather, mostly they're people who've limped along for four-odd years and never done well enough to get their Honours degree, so the General exists as some kind of fallback that they can usually get as a consolation prize.

As to their utility, well, I've never spoken to anyone who got one about what they went on to do and whether they found they were significantly disadvantaged versus people who had Honours degrees, but it seems to me that in a case like the one I've described, it has to be better than nothing, and it's still a higher level qualification than an HNC or HND, which are the consolation prizes for people who leave after one and two years respectively. The biggest drawback I can think of is that you'd effectively be barred from applying for any graduate job advertising a degree class requirement, because those classes implicitly refer to Honours degrees because General degrees don't have them.

Why don't they offer General degrees in specific subjects? I'm not sure, but I'd hazard a guess that it's because of the way our credit system works, with students taking modules in a variety of (sometimes fairly random) subjects over their first two years. Someone faced with getting a General degree under this system would be highly unlikely to have been in a position to accumulate enough credits in a specific subject or two to merit a named degree in it, and those people (the vast majority) who have got the credits to get a degree in a named subject will be bound to have got them by going along the Honours route. There may be some people who, through constant repetitions of years, might just have scraped enough credits in just the one or two subjects to merit a named General degree, but realistically this isn't the sort of behaviour the university would want to encourage by introducing this new kind of degree just for them. For people who fall in between a General and an Honours degree, remember, there is the Special degree, and I think that those come in named subjects (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody).

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Psalm 91:7

[Frank]

Would it not be a rather simple (if extra bit of work) thing for staff to do to simply examine the subjects taken and offer an inbetween consilatory degree, akin to the BSc thing mentioned by the first poster.

That is: if I'm lucky enough to have not taken a terribly random assortment of subjects (ie a Mathematician who'd taken all Maths courses for the first three years, but f'd up somewhere along the line) to get the General/BScthing in Maths rather than a straight and nondescript general?

This'd only be useful for folks who's selections merit it, but I suspect it'd be worth a look, no?

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[David Bean]

Staff from different departments getting together and talking?

(Pause for effect)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[KateBush]

I think specials have all but gone now. When I was first taken poorly and idn't know if I would be able to complete my Honours degree, I wondered if I could have a special as I had about 360 credits but was told it was general or honours and nowt inbetween. Still, that was 4 years ago (tempus fugit) and it could have all changed back again since then...

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The only way to avoid trouble is to BE trouble

[LK Today]

Quoting David Bean from 23:28, 30th Mar 2007
Staff from different departments getting together and talking?

(Pause for effect)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

Oh how extremely ture!

[hr]

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[sat]

Quoting LK Today from 00:12, 31st Mar 2007

Quoting David Bean from 23:28, 30th Mar 2007
Staff from different departments getting together and talking?

(Pause for effect)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

Oh how extremely ture!

Quite. Maths and physics don't seem to liaise that much, and they only have a bridge to seperate them.

[Tweedle-Dum]

There is the third way, where you do third year, get reasonably good grades, then beg to be allowed to stay a fourth year. I don't see why they'd kick someone on course for a desmond out with a general.

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Tetragrammaton is a four letter word.

[niall]

Quoting David Bean from 21:54, 30th Mar 2007
For people who fall in between a General and an Honours degree, remember, there is the Special degree, and I think that those come in named subjects (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody).

It doesn't. I have a BSc Special, and it just says Bachelor of Science (Special) on it. But yeh, it would be very hard to award generl degrees in specific subjects, and if you've done enough of one subject, you'll probably done Junionr Honours, so would be eligble for the Special.

I think getting a general, or a special degree is possibly better than getting a 3rd class honours, at least to employers, since you don't get classifications!


noticing Kylie's comment, I got my special in 2003, so i dunno if they still do it now!

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[exnihilo]

Yeah, the clue's in the name really, a General is not offered in specific subjects because it's not specific, it's general. The point is you have not met the requirements of Honours and therefore have not been allowed to specialise. At other places (Glasgow, for example) the equivalent is an Ordinary degree, and the same rules broadly apply.

[nighteyes]

From what I heard in 2005 that was the last year they were offering specials for god knows for whatever reason. I heard this from someone who graduated then and to be honest she was a bit of a layabout dipshit. The thing that puzzled me was that she was then accepted to do a masters - I kinda thought that required at least a 2:2 hons.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[niall]

Quoting nighteyes from 13:00, 31st Mar 2007
The thing that puzzled me was that she was then accepted to do a masters - I kinda thought that required at least a 2:2 hons.

just because someone gets a Special (indeed even a general, DE or a CE) degree doesn't mean that they are shit at the subject. They can be very good, but did not see it right to continue on at what they were doing.

It can also serve as a kick up the arse to them, as it did with me. I wasn't doing great at Maths, but am now doing a masters of engineering at Strathclyde.

[hr]

do you have a tastyspoon?

http://www.tastyspoon.com/forum

[Malcolm]

Hmm... it'd be nice if you could get a non Honours degree in the subject you're actually studying, I think. In my opinion, it should be awarded at Graduation if you go all the way through Honours and don't make the requirements for a Third at the end of it all for some reason, because by that time you'll have done most of the Honours modules so how more specialised can you be?

I think the General should be reserved purely for those who don't make Honours at all at the end of second year, or for those who specifically elect to do it instead (as some have done - I read a post here once where somebody had the requirements for Honours but didn't feel they could cope with it so downgraded).

Either that, or the University chucks the General altogether, and if you don't get an 11 you can do all the Honours modules but graduate without Honours at the end of Fourth Year i.e. BSc Physics instead of BSc Physics (Hons). That way you'd be specialised enough to justify a non-Honours degree in a specific subject.

I think it makes sense, but seriously doubt anything of the sort will ever happen. What do you folks think?

Also, I think the whole business of getting into Honours needs to be addressed. It's just so ambiguous - History say 11 in both modules with no exceptions, as do Psychology and IR, and they act upon it by booting off those who don't make the cut. Some schools say 11 in both, but let you in with less in one or both, and some schools say average an 11. This should be standardised to avoid problems like the whole Honours vs. General thing - the University needs to lay down solid and consistent rules with no exceptions except in special circumstances. People say these changes are in the pipeline and individual departmental control is slowly being removed, but if it's happening at all it's happening slowly. Comp Sci told me that the University as a whole had a policy of no Honours entry on a resit mark as of this year, however SSS and the Pro Dean both told me that was incorrect - it seems this was another example of a school setting up their own rules where there were gaps in the University regulations. I know people at Edinburgh, and Honours entry for them means passing 3 out of 6 modules with the bare minimum and none of this getting stuck between a pass and a certain threshold like we have here.

That links back to my point about getting a non-Honours degree in your degree subject. I personally think it's a good idea - fail 2nd year and you get a pure general degree, pass but not getting the requirements should lead you to a non-Honours degree in your subject. Like I say, a system similar to that exists in many other high-flying highly regarded Universities.

I really don't see why, after 600 years, University policy is still all over the place.

[MacMan]

I quite agree Malcolm.

It seems that this year has been a particularly bad one for a large chunk of the raw science subjects like Physics, Maths and Computer Science. Quite alot of people are having to re-sit, including some of those who got first level grades in First Year. The key example here is that in Physics 2A last semester, only 60% passed the final exam with an even smaller (but unknown to me) proportion getting above grade 11. It certainly seems that some departments are exercising some discretion though when it comes to Honours entry requirements and resits. If they were to stick rigidly to the common rules then there would be hardly any junior honours classes in these subjects next year.

According to what I have heard from some staff, Second Year is a bit of a shake-up for alot of people. However most pull through it eventually.

[ParisInTheAutumn]

Even the subjects that say strictly over 11, still allow for exceptions, i think it just depends on how many people over 11 want to take it.

[Malcolm]

Because Comp Sci are being so vague and unhelpful... I've put in for a transfer, simply because I've been told categorically that I'll probably not know what the real situation is until it's too late to do anything. So, I can either spend an extra year by doing second year again elsewhere, or add on 2 extra years by staying at St Andrews, doing the useless general and then using that for direct second year entry elsewhere. Transferring now seems like the better option.

It's sad to have to leave behind your life and your friends, but hey, if that's how things have to be. It's probably a good thing, actually, as at least two of the Honours Comp Sci modules here are very likely to sink my entire degree classification due to them being somewhat nails.

[JohnQPublic]

What's the deal with the MA "Special?"

Does it mean you get to take a short bus everywhere or what?

[nighteyes]

I did not mean that you may not be good at your subject, but that for whatever reason you may fail to get honours. But that does not detract that the entry requirements for some courses specify honours entry requirements hence my surprise at entry to a course based on a special degree.

And in the case of the person I am talking about she may have been brilliant but she did not apply herself.

Quoting niall from 13:34, 31st Mar 2007

Quoting nighteyes from 13:00, 31st Mar 2007
The thing that puzzled me was that she was then accepted to do a masters - I kinda thought that required at least a 2:2 hons.

just because someone gets a Special (indeed even a general, DE or a CE) degree doesn't mean that they are shit at the subject. They can be very good, but did not see it right to continue on at what they were doing.

It can also serve as a kick up the arse to them, as it did with me. I wasn't doing great at Maths, but am now doing a masters of engineering at Strathclyde.

[hr]

do you have a tastyspoon?

http://www.tastyspoon.com/forum

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i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[KateBush]

Employers tend not to bother their arses about degree class, so it would seem. I know people who scraped desmonds and are earning a fortune, and people with firsts who are unemployed!

I think it's about you as a person as well as the degree.

Plus people with a general tend to havea very good reason for not being able to complete to honours- eg- bereavement, illness etc. So I wouldn't think a general would preclude you from a job.

I'm still glad I did my Honours degree, but I do wonder how much the university itself takes degree classes seriously. To award a 2:2 to someone scraping barely HALF MARKS seems inherently wrong to me; for my master's course at another university anything below 60% was considered an outright fail, no compromise. And who fails at St Andrews? No one ever gets a third, yet people I know who mark undergrad work frequently say that there are some appalling pieces of work submitted every semester...with seemingly no extenuating circumstances to excuse them other than bone idleness.

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The only way to avoid trouble is to BE trouble