Upcoming Political Elections

[Frank]

Right, after having noticed my very own son being a right fucktard on Facebook regarding the upcoming elections (for which my main concern is the Scottish Parlimentary elections) and vehement SNP bashing, I felt it's about time the Sinner had a hofflenosh on the topic once more.

So, I've been largely convinced that federalism is the better way forward for the UK in light of discussions here on the Sinner, but it's now increasingly apparent that the SNP are ahead in polls and such and such.

Now, not being terribly worried about rampant independence just yet, I'd rather focus on the specific 'on the ground' politics of the various parties. So, what's folks educated/researched/informed views on the topic. Arseholes (including my son) shouting off about "Party X" aren't desired, but their opinions otherwise are.

Thoughts? What's the deal in politics at the moment?

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Malcolm]

Yeah... my bad. Rants removed but I still don't like the SNP.

[Gealle]

I'll be deliberately spoiling my ballot: none of the fuckers deserve to get in, and I won't sit back and leave my vote unused.

[hr]

Funky flunky munky...

[Fionnlagh]

I'd be inclined to give the SNP their chance. From the accounts I've seen, any referendum on independence will be towards the end of the parliament, and I'd be interested to see what an SNP led parliament would do. And if they can get a substantial majority for their referendum after people have seen them in power for a term, then fair play to them.

As for on the ground policies, and specifically Labour's pledge to abolish tolls on the Tay Bridge, which is the only one I've really heard about down here in London, why didn't they agree to do it when they had the chance? Certainly seemed a no-brainer, so I don't see what they gained by holding off. Fine, they can annul the SNP's similar pledge, but why create the farce in the first place?

Not that my opinion matters a jot, as I won't get to vote, bah humbug!

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http://facebook.com/p.php?id=37102526&l=9f7bca06b0

[Odysseus]

Exactly - Voting the SNP into power will not give them the power to 'force' Scotland out of the UK. However, it will give them a chance to show how things would be different under their leadership. They aren't a great party, but they are the best of a bad bunch - The Lib Dems are political lightweights who don't contribute anything and the Tories are too busy back-stabbing one another and will not be a force in Scotland for a long, long time thanks to Thatcher. The rhetoric from New Labour surely cannot work; they are fear mongering liars and have been for the best part of 10 years - Continually telling Scotland that we are too weak and stupid to rule ourselves. Blair, for example, claiming that George Mathewson was guilty of 'pure self-indulgence' for saying that Scotland can thrive in an age of globalisation. Who do you believe? A washed up PM with a reputation for lies or the ex-CEO of the fifth largest bank in the world?

Independence will not come without a cost, that much is true, however, the benefits might well outweight it. Its frustraiting to see Unionists who aren't willing to even contemplate change, but then turn around and accuse the SNP of being inward looking. Kinda pathetic, but their day is nearly up.

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Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[WashingtonIrving]

I agree, I'm inclined to vote for the SNP on the basis that they can't do any less than Labour. I'm very much anti-conservative in political leaning, the lib dems in Scotland especially just seem weak and the socialists are just nuts. But I vote in a strong labour constituency so it doesn't really matter anyway.

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"I said farewell honey, I'll see you Judgment Day"

[Frank]

Interesting. First off: Apologies to Son for arsehole calling, there's only one arsehole here, and that's me!

Now, back on topic. Ignoring Gealle and Malcolm's views on the simple basis that there's not much to say to them, I'll progress.

Fionnlagh

I largely agree/see things in a similar manner (apart from the not-being-able-to-vote bit). My main worry (in terms of all politics) is: Is it 'better' to vote in favour of "Seeing what happens..."(ie giving the SNP their chance) or "Not giving them the chance to balls it up..." (ie voting against the SNP for the sake of making sure the whole Independence thing doesn't crop up)?

In my initial view, it seems logical to go with the SNP as the worst that could happen is that the referendum get's a majority vote and they turn out to be a terrible government. This consequence, IMO, doesn't seem statistically important compared to the chances of any other government being a total disaster (ie vote the way I think seems best and hope that the rest of this fair democracy have a good idea too, independent of my view)

Odysseus

The rhetoric from New Labour surely cannot work; they are fear mongering liars

This is, essentially, the only bit I've issue with (the rest I'm inclined to agree on/not dispute[well, the Lib Dems being disregarded out of hand is interesting, but something that I doubt I can engage you on in the same way I'm unlikely to engage Gealle or my dear son on with respect to the SNP]).

Is NL stuff rhetoric above the border? As noted: I really don't know a terrible amount about politics, I've a few ideas and views on things, but ultimately I'm no more informed specifically than your average man on the street. Has NL [in Scotland] been that bad?

My own real/biological (as opposed to academic) dad commented on this, his view was: Regardless of whether NL has been 'good' or 'bad' or the specifics of their election campaign, unless they can shake themselves up as a party they appear to simply be stagnating/not doing enough.

Would this be a fair comment on NL in Scotland? As I see it I cannot personally comment on certain things that NL(+LD, I should add for correctneess) has done here that I'd heartily object to. Indeed, I'd be inclined to say the country as a whole feels better than it did ten years ago...but even then: I'm in no position to judge that with any sort of usefulness, so it's an irrelevent viewpoint [save for it being clear they've not reduced us to famine...]!

Is it, perhaps, that NL(+LD) simply haven't been doing enough?, that they're perhaps simply getting too big for their boots in terms of their responsibility or duty? (Too big might not be correct, perhaps: 'not in' their boots e.g. growing distant from their initial intents)

WashingtoiIrving/Robin

You'd say the SNP vs Labour thing is more a question of curiosity rather than merit? (or perhaps more accurately that the relative merits between the two are such that a choice on merit alone is irrelevent?)

In a slightly different note: As I understand it (i.e. not very well), is it not the case that the Scottish Election System (proportional representation) means that even voting SNP in a Labour heartland will reflect in the 'overall system'?

That is that the overall votes of the entire population are partly represented as well as the constituency votes? (Thus if every individual constituency voted Labour and SNP at 65% and 35% respectively [and exactly] the final makeup of the parliment wouldn't be just all labour [as they'd won all the constituencies], but a portion of SNP elected candidates [but with no specific constituency]?)

I should probably read up on this!

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[AlenWatters]

Theres a Single Transferable Vote system being used in Council elections for the first time, which should be an awful lot fairer. Its the same system used in most student elections, as in you list the candidates in order of preference, the main difference being that three people are now elected in (bigger) council wards.

The voting system for the parliament will still be the same - that being not too proportional. A party like the SNP which is second almost everywhere, and first in only 6 or 7 seats will see its popularity transfered.

Anyway, as for issues - how does low growth, child poverty and putting an end to the waste of money spent on PPP schools and hospitals?

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc/

[David Bean]

Quoting Washingtonirving from 23:42, 31st Mar 2007
I'm very much anti-conservative in political leaning

What do you mean by that, exactly?

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Psalm 91:7

[nighteyes]

Sounds like me. If you come from a non-upper income bracket in Glasgow your family would draw and quarter you for voting Conservative. Even given my current dislike of New Labour and my feeling that the Lib Dems are never going to get anywhere I would still never put a cross next to the Conservative box.

I dont know Washingtonirving so perhaps his reasons are very differnt from mine. But the fact remains that there are some sections of Scotland that (as has been said above) will neve vote Conservative for a very very long time (after Thatcher)

Quoting David Bean from 02:00, 2nd Apr 2007

Quoting Washingtonirving from 23:42, 31st Mar 2007
I'm very much anti-conservative in political leaning

What do you mean by that, exactly?

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Psalm 91:7

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[Odysseus]

A number of Economic experts have come out in support of independence and I was wondering what Unionists on this board have to say about that? http://www.theherald.co.uk/business/news/display.var.1300686.0.0.php

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Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[niall]

Quoting Frank from 04:10, 1st Apr 2007



In my initial view, it seems logical to go with the SNP as the worst that could happen is that the referendum get's a majority vote and they turn out to be a terrible government.

see, I think that if SNP were able to gain independence, they wouldn't be back in power after it. There are a lot of people who are voting for SNP due to the independence ticket, but that's it. After independence, many people won't have a reason to vote SNP (well, they'll need to find something else to run on!) and will start voting for the other 3.

I will say that i'm in the above generalisation, I just haven't worked out who i would vote for!

[hr]

do you have a tastyspoon?

http://www.tastyspoon.com/forum

[Odysseus]

I'm voting SNP in the Scottish elections because I genuinely think they are the best of a fairly poor bunch. For example, I don't think that anyone could seriously say that Jack McConnell (or is it McDonnell?) makes a *good* first minister. He talks of being patriotic, and that Scotland is 'the best little country in the world' but then turns around and claims that we aren't strong enough? They use terms like 'sepperation' and 'divorce' to draw unpleasent connotations of family breakdowns - a pretty cheap tactic if you ask me. Being part of the UK has brought a deal of prosperity to Scotland, undoubtedly so. However, in an age of globalisation and European centralisation, Scotland would be far, far better served with its own interests.

One of my main hopes in this election is that we get more than 50% of our population voting this time round! As far as I see it, anyone who doesn't vote can't complain about anything!

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[WashingtonIrving]

[quote]Quoting nighteyes from 12:38, 2nd Apr 2007
Sounds like me. If you come from a non-upper income bracket in Glasgow your family would draw and quarter you for voting Conservative. Even given my current dislike of New Labour and my feeling that the Lib Dems are never going to get anywhere I would still never put a cross next to the Conservative box.

I dont know Washingtonirving so perhaps his reasons are very differnt from mine. But the fact remains that there are some sections of Scotland that (as has been said above) will neve vote Conservative for a very very long time (after Thatcher)


[quote]

Sounds about right. I just don't agree with their policies and general ideology.


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"I said farewell honey, I'll see you Judgment Day"

[Frank]

After having seen Labour's PPB, I'm very much anti-Labour. I haven't yet seen the Conservative, Lib Dem, SNP or Green ones yet (indeed: I haven't seen the Solidarity or Socialist either...but...well...y'know...), but the Labour one seemed such a scaremongering insane-parody of patriotism that I felt somewhat ill watching it.

I still need to check and cross-ref their manifesto (and that of the local candidates), but on the whole: ouch!

I have to admit I feel vaguely in the same bracket as Washingtonirving and nighteyes in that I'm really rather innately prejudiced against the Conservatives. I try not to be, but even then I still dislike the majority of their policies. And my mother would probably disinherit me and/or send me for adoption should I ever support them.

All that said, I will try to give fair opportunity to actually investigating their policies and such.

The article that Odysseus linked to is quite a positive light on the whole situation, can anyone point me in the direction of similar or opposing articles?

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[David Bean]

Quoting nighteyes from 12:38, 2nd Apr 2007
Sounds like me. If you come from a non-upper income bracket in Glasgow your family would draw and quarter you for voting Conservative. Even given my current dislike of New Labour and my feeling that the Lib Dems are never going to get anywhere I would still never put a cross next to the Conservative box.

I don't particularly want to become drawn into the nationalist orgy this thread has become, but I do feel as though I ought to respond to this. What is it, precisely, that all of these non-upper income Glasweigans are under the impression that Margaret Thatcher did to them? As far as I can work out, all these arguments seem to boil down to is the suggestion that it's probably not a very good idea for people to think that it's the responsibility of other people to subsidise their jobs and their lives for them, and that actually, what government should be doing is creating a framework within which people can do things for themselves.

That's certainly what any claim that Mrs Thatcher 'wrecked' any of the traditional manufacturing industries comes down to. The suggestion that her government's policies actively hijacked these industries' operations is, of course, absurd. What they did was to pull the state back from the role of keeping industries afloat that couldn't stay like that by themselves, because people in other countries - much poorer people than we were - had figured out ways to manufacture the same goods at lower price and with greater quality, and wanted to be able to create livelihoods for themselves by competing on the world market. This role, that of guarantor of people's jobs against superior competition, is one that the state should never have taken on in the first place: government is not supposed to be a jobs programme, and especially not at the cost of the development of other countries, and the improvement of their citizens' lives. If that's socialist benevolence, as far as I'm concerned, the political left can stick it.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[nighteyes]

The poll tax was the reason that I had the anti-Conservatism drilled into me. And the image of the party for the rich by the rich. And the fact that many of the policies always seemed too right wing for my liking when I looked into politics for myself. David Cameron and the nu-Conservatives seem to be trying too hard like middle aged men trying to rap infront of the kids. So no I will not be voting Conservative, nor Labour. Beyond that I am undecided as of yet.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[Iain]

Interesting, I have not a clue where I discovered the poll, but one of the multitude of ones with the SNP somewhere out in the lead. The Tory voters and their age brackets are the most interesting thing. They are most popular with the 18-24's and the over 65's. Are the younger ones simply the ones that were too young to have "Thatcher = poll tax = evil" drilled into them. Nationalism aside, hearing my Dad the happiest he'd ever been in years (and since) on 1997 election night; I wouldn't dare vote Tory if, for a second, I should venture to entertain that thought.

Tom Farmer's nine minutes on Newsnight tonight are something to listen to and take heed of. I think his comments sum up what this election is about very well. Independence wouldn't scare off business in Scotland, "uncertainty" is a fact of life, not some ugly monster caused by a move to independence. He argues that these issues do not come into this election (except to say that the SNP at least are giving the country a choice) and he states clearly that it is time for a change to see what a new government can do with the economy, to health, to education, to personal security - things for both business and the "man in the street."

This week, I sat and watched, with a feeling of utter contempt, the Labour PPB. I agree, what a load of rubbish. I can't recall a single policy, nor have I seen such negative, bullying campaigning on a topic (independence) that isn't even going to be settled by these elections. It's what I expected, really. The SNP PPB was very slick as expected, positive, barely a whiff of negative campaigning. It'll serve them well. The core Labour vote might be tempted out by theirs, it won't win floating voters.

Awaiting with interest further developments...

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http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~snpsoc

[David Bean]

So what you're basically both saying is, you both wouldn't vote Conservative because you've been brainwashed by your parents into thinking there's something wrong with them. Poll tax? Sheesh. All that was was an attempt to make everyone pay the same amount for the same services to their local council - what's supposed to be wrong with that? Treating everybody equally is unfair - trust the political left to come up with a paradox of such mind-melting proportion. We all get our bins emptied the same, and arguably the community charge (which it was actually called) acted as a brake on councils letting their budgets spiral out of control, since they couldn't increase it by a fat lot else people would have started to default.

In any case, the system we have at the moment was introduced by - guess who? The last Conservative government! All New Labour have done so far is oversee massive inflation-busting rises in the amount we have to pay whatever the system for collecting it happens to be, all for no discernable improvements in local sevices.

So anybody who refuses to vote for the Conservatives because of what somebody once told them about the poll tax should probably accept that they don't really have the intelligence to vote at all.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[Frank]

Quoting David Bean from 23:49, 4th Apr 2007
because you've been brainwashed by your parents into thinking there's something wrong with them

That is what it essentially boils down to. However, there'll likely be a time for most folks to step out from their parents shadow. I think an election is as good a time to overthrow the brainwashing as any. If, when it comes down to it, you still don't like 'em: I'd say that's fair enough. But David has a fine point on this aspect, and one I can't agree with enough.

However, I don't agree with everything he says, let's be clear about that

All that was was an attempt to make everyone pay the same amount for the same services to their local council -

Quoting David Bean from 23:49, 4th Apr 2007
what's supposed to be wrong with that? Treating everybody equally is unfair - trust the political left to come up with a paradox of such mind-melting proportion.

The unfortunate truth is that due to history: not everyone is in the same position. Perhaps one day it'll be fair enough to blanket tax folks based on an ideal of pure equality, but today (and more importantly: back then) this is simply impractical and bordernline discriminatory against those who are simply poor.

Quoting David Bean from 23:49, 4th Apr 2007
We all get our bins emptied the same, and arguably the community charge (which it was actually called) acted as a brake on councils letting their budgets spiral out of control, since they couldn't increase it by a fat lot else people would have started to default.

I'm not wanting to throw about random phrases I don't quite understand, but relativism is rining an initial bell in 'me noggin'.

That is: Some people don't need the council to empty their bins. Due to the inequality with which the population of Britain (and particularly back then in Scotland) is bound at the moment: Not everyone can afford to pay the same rate.

Discriminatory was a bad choice of word. It was completely indiscriminate. And that is (IMO) the essence of the problem. Folks (the poor) get annoyed about it because it adversely affects themselves. But that's not the end of it: they're even more incensed because it is similarly inconsequential to those who are really well off.

Further, the principle problem with it for me, is that it was badly reasoned. I cannot quite approximate the frame of mind required to see why and how it would be considered fair given how things were at the time.

Under that thinking, I'd stand with the crowds naysaying the Thatcher government of the time on this issue. The problem is, I'd be doing it for wildly different reasons to most of the people I've conversed with about this.

Quoting David Bean from 23:49, 4th Apr 2007 So anybody who refuses to vote for the Conservatives because of what somebody once told them about the poll tax should probably accept that they don't really have the intelligence to vote at all.

That surprises me David. It really does. Bee in your bonnet?

Ah.

Quoting David Bean from 23:49, 4th Apr 2007I don't particularly want to become drawn into the nationalist orgy this thread has become, but I do feel as though I ought to respond to this.

I can't see a nationalist orgy. I seriously (not being sarcastic, and realising your non-literal intent) cannot.

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."