Brian Laing

[exnihilo]

Again. Rubbish. Those numbers are limited by central government, he could do no such thing even if he were moved to.

Sorry, but that you never saw him, doesn't mean he wasn't there. He's been the most involved Principal St Andrews has had and probably the most involved in Scotland.

[McK]

Quoting exnihilo from 12:09, 28th Jun 2007
Again. Rubbish. Those numbers are limited by central government, he could do no such thing even if he were moved to.

Sorry, but that you never saw him, doesn't mean he wasn't there. He's been the most involved Principal St Andrews has had and probably the most involved in Scotland.

But, with respect, it is easy to be 'involved' and be seen in a university (and community) as small as St Andrews. I have just spent 2 years doing a Postgrad at Edinburgh and have met Tim O'Shea a number of times. He is very involved with Edinburgh University but because of its size you don't bump into him as much as you might Lang.

All this stuff about Principals turning up to halls and committee meetings is, I am afraid, pure fantasy. I cannot think of a vice-chancellor who would manage such tasks, given the workload and commitments. Even though St Andrews is small, these things seem pretty insignificant in the face of the larger responsibilities to be dealt with.

And again, for the record, Lang is a far better principal than his predecessor, for whom precious few people have a good word to say.

[exnihilo]

Oh, I agree about the size, but I have already said that I bump into Sir Muir a fair amount over here in Glasgow. That said, he's nowhere near as involved as Brian in student life and in anything much beyond the actual management of the University.

[Laura]

I love how people come on the sinner talking about things like the increase in hall fees and overseas students and take a position on them without doing any research into whether what they are saying is right, how the University is governed or what restrictions are placed on a University by governments and funding councils.

I'm very confused about a student having to leave the University because of the increase in hall fees- firstly, the 40% was spread over three years, secondly students already in halls before the increase were given a rebate. In addition to this, the University offers bursaries and hardship grants and loans- having used them myself, and having helped students get them in my position as Director of Representation this year, I can vouch for that if you have no money they will loan you some, and if you can prove that you literally cannot afford to live here and that your parents cannot help they will give you some.

It is, as I have said before, easy to label Brian Lang as the only reason why any of these things happen, but if you understood the way that the University is governed, you would no better than to make that assumption. We have a governing board (the court) which has the final say, and in the case of increased hall fees it would be the Quaestor and his finance department advising the court on the 40% increase- not the Principal.

As I always argue about the rent increase- the system was literally at breaking point- the University could not afford to run it at that cost. We would have been in a position where the running of our halls was sourced to a private company- a disatser as neither students or the University would have input in it any longer.

You have to go beyond 'we need halls to be cheaper' and ask yourself what would this mean for the future of the University? You also have to be better informed if you are going to make assertions.

[hr]

"When I came back to Dublin, I was courtmartialled in my absence and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence."

[Steveo]

Quoting Laura from 12:30, 28th Jun 2007
I'm very confused about a student having to leave the University because of the increase in hall fees- firstly, the 40% was spread over three years, secondly students already in halls before the increase were given a rebate.

Not if you changed degree - they removed it from you in that case. I just neglected to change mine for an entire year to avoid that back in '04.

[hr]

Get off my internet.

[Guest]

Quoting Al from 12:21, 26th Jun 2007

Quoting macgamer from 09:05, 26th Jun 2007
What was Struther Arnott like?

He made ad hoc hires of unsuitable and unproductive lecturers/professors who we (the university) are now stuck with. He also allowed professors to circumvent Heads of Depts to lobby him and make special deals etc, which led to chaos in decision-making. My own School was torn apart by this and we are still living with the consequences now.

Brian Lang is excellent - a decent bloke who has the interests of the University at heart. It is under him that we have become one of the top unis in the UK in most rankings.

[exnihilo]

Piffle. When I started we were 3rd in the UK according to The Times, that was at the height of Struther's "reign of terror", we are now 4th according to The Grauniad, and on some deeply dodgy criteria. Struther had his faults, but he simply did not run the place into the ground.

[Dave the Explosive Newt]

I've just been at a conference with numerous other medical students and asked around: No-one seems to have a Principal as accessable as Brian, as limited as this access may be.

You try rocking up to Melville for lunch once a week when you're running something the size of St Andrews - it cannot be done. And do you really think he'd be able to get important people to come visit if he just got them round for a chip butty? Fancy dinners may be expensive but they provide a fabulous platform for networking with the great and good.

[hr]

Mmmmmmm, cake.
http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37102114

[romantic]

Quoting rubbermuffin from 11:55, 28th Jun 2007
ps the other thing he has presided over is massively increased percentages of overseas students which limits places for home students - something I am vehemently against.

From my own teaching experience the overseas students work very hard, whereas all the lazy students are 'home' students. I'd much rather teach a class full of overseas students.

[Jono]

Quoting Laura from 12:30, 28th Jun 2007
I love how people come on the sinner talking about things like the increase in hall fees and overseas students and take a position on them without doing any research into whether what they are saying is right, how the University is governed or what restrictions are placed on a University by governments and funding councils.

I'm very confused about a student having to leave the University because of the increase in hall fees- firstly, the 40% was spread over three years, secondly students already in halls before the increase were given a rebate. In addition to this, the University offers bursaries and hardship grants and loans- having used them myself, and having helped students get them in my position as Director of Representation this year, I can vouch for that if you have no money they will loan you some, and if you can prove that you literally cannot afford to live here and that your parents cannot help they will give you some.

It is, as I have said before, easy to label Brian Lang as the only reason why any of these things happen, but if you understood the way that the University is governed, you would no better than to make that assumption. We have a governing board (the court) which has the final say, and in the case of increased hall fees it would be the Quaestor and his finance department advising the court on the 40% increase- not the Principal.

As I always argue about the rent increase- the system was literally at breaking point- the University could not afford to run it at that cost. We would have been in a position where the running of our halls was sourced to a private company- a disatser as neither students or the University would have input in it any longer.

You have to go beyond 'we need halls to be cheaper' and ask yourself what would this mean for the future of the University? You also have to be better informed if you are going to make assertions.

[hr]

"When I came back to Dublin, I was courtmartialled in my absence and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence."

Laura, with no personal offence intended; is this really what student representation has been reduced to?

We’re not entitled to our views because we’re not as clued up on the ins and outs of university governing structures as you are! We should all shut up and let the grown ups talk in private?

Your take on the rent rise is interesting. Money needed or not; the rent for the non-dilapidated halls of residence are now above and beyond the levels of the maximum student loan! That in turn serves to increase the rent levels all across the board. As for the rebate; call me a cynic; but it seems to me that it served to do nothing more than save the SRC reps at the time from political fallout, while effectively selling out all those students who came after on the quiet! Hardly the SRC’s finest hour

Additionally; you yourself ran for Director of Representation last year on the platform of fighting the rent rises. Yet now you turn around and say how they were, actually, necessary, and we should all just shut up and accept them!

As for tarring Brian Lang with the brush for all this; maybe he’s not directly responsible for it. But then, he’s not directly responsible for several of the high-quality initiatives that have been launched in the last two years, for example, the world-class athlete program. Yet he seems perfectly happy to be associated with them, through photo ops and so forth. I have no problem with this. He’s the principle, and he should be praised for the good things that come out of the institution. However, you can’t have it both ways. In taking credit for the successes, one must also bear the fair share of the brunt for failures or shortcomings on his watch, as well as any associated damage to reputation.



[hr]


Exclusive to The Sinner, and all other fora.

[munchingfoo]

...as above but add -

what the hell are you talking about when you mention that SSS gives out money.

The maximum (non-mature) undergraduate grant from the hardship fund is £500 per year. The cost increase on new hall since I started university is more than 4 times that amount.

What planet do you come from where you even think of this as a suitable answer to the problem.

What galaxy are you from also if you think that taking out short term loans from the university loan fund is the answer either? Short term loans are designed to cover unforeseen circumstances (illness, broken computer, loss of part time job). Hall fees are hardly unforeseen, and are not a suitable use for these loans.


Before you criticise students whose job it isn't to know this stuff for not knowing it, perhaps you should know it yourself.

[hr]

Tired Freudian references aside - your mother played my mighty skin flute like a surf crowned sea nymph trying to rouse Poseidon from his watery slumber!

[Lid]

Just think, Laura, only 47.5 hours of this shit left.

[hr]

Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin

[Jono]

Quoting Lid from 00:32, 29th Jun 2007
Just think, Laura, only 47.5 hours of this shit left.

[hr]

Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin

And for that comment, I'm going to bother you twice as much regarding grant money!

[hr]


Exclusive to The Sinner, and all other fora.

[exnihilo]

Just two quick additions here, because it is quite late...

Lang.

Principal.

The former I can forgive people mistaking, as not every Lang spells his/her name that way, the latter I cannot, as a matter of principle.

[Jono]

Quoting exnihilo from 04:10, 29th Jun 2007
Just two quick additions here, because it is quite late...

Lang.

Principal.

The former I can forgive people mistaking, as not every Lang spells his/her name that way, the latter I cannot, as a matter of principle.

But… But… I RAN IT THROUGH THE SPELLCHECKER!

Oh well, I suppose I'll just have to live with your eternal enmity from now on. I’m sure I’ll get by somehow!


[hr]


Exclusive to The Sinner, and all other fora.

[exnihilo]

Not enmity, pity!

[David Bean]

Returning to Rubbermuffin's post for a second, don't tell me you really think students want the PRINCIPAL to start turning up to their hall committee meetings?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

More seriously, Jono, on the rent rises, I wasn't on the SRC at the time but I was associated with them, and I have to ask what, precisely, you'd have had them do - organise an occupation of St Salvator's Hall, perhaps? Actually, that might have been rather fun: we could have worn our gowns, smoked pipes, drank port and sung the Gaudeamus out the windows at the gathering journalists. But apart from that, if you're not happy with the action the SRC took, can you tell us precisely what power it had over the situation that it declined or neglected to use?

As one of the students who directly benefitted from the postponement and rebate, I have to say that it didn't much feel to me like an empty face-saving gesture; as for the students who came afterward, they sadly would have had to brook the increases in any case. Although, I will allow that the university probably knew when it announced the original proposals that it would end up with something like the agreement they reached, and initially announced a worse-sounding plan to give themselves a stronger negotiating hand - but that's just good negotiating.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[Jono]

Quoting David Bean from 18:25, 29th Jun 2007
Returning to Rubbermuffin's post for a second, don't tell me you really think students want the PRINCIPAL to start turning up to their hall committee meetings?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

More seriously, Jono, on the rent rises, I wasn't on the SRC at the time but I was associated with them, and I have to ask what, precisely, you'd have had them do - organise an occupation of St Salvator's Hall, perhaps? Actually, that might have been rather fun: we could have worn our gowns, smoked pipes, drank port and sung the Gaudeamus out the windows at the gathering journalists. But apart from that, if you're not happy with the action the SRC took, can you tell us precisely what power it had over the situation that it declined or neglected to use?

As one of the students who directly benefitted from the postponement and rebate, I have to say that it didn't much feel to me like an empty face-saving gesture; as for the students who came afterward, they sadly would have had to brook the increases in any case. Although, I will allow that the university probably knew when it announced the original proposals that it would end up with something like the agreement they reached, and initially announced a worse-sounding plan to give themselves a stronger negotiating hand - but that's just good negotiating.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

Firstly, yes! A gown-wearing port-drinking (Just a Best for me though) pipe-smoking (as it was still allowed back then) Gaudeamus-singing (hymn sheets provided) protest would absolutely have been in order! I realise that it's apparently cliché for students to protest about anything these days (that is SOOO 1971!), but if there's one neglected power that the SRC has, or should have, it's the voice of the student body! An SRC sponsored protest, complete with design team involvement, union advertising, Webmail etc. would, I imagine, be very potent indeed! Especially in the event of a cause that directly affects the student body! Even if it didn’t achieve a reversal; it would still have reinforced the message delivered in days of old that the student body will not be dictated to like children (though preferably without the brick throwing full-stop)! Durham managed to create a sizable protest on the back of a much smaller rent increase last year. Why is St. Andrews incapable of doing the same?

As for what else should have been done; I don’t know. I wasn’t there at the time. All I know is that I matriculated in the wake of it. Ask anyone from my year; They’ll tell you 9 times out of 10 that the SRC looks worse in the light of that negotiation. There’s no point in pretending otherwise. People whinge constantly about student apathy (me included); well it’s born of things like this!

What could have been done is largely irrelevant; what should be done now is important. This would include making sure the agreement is nailed to the door. Further, lobbying government to increase the loan St. Andrews students are entitled to would be a step in the right direction. I’m under no illusions that we can reverse the rent rises. It would also help if our representatives would stop pretending otherwise.


[hr]


Exclusive to The Sinner, and all other fora.

[Laura]

Quoting Jono from 23:01, 28th Jun 2007

Quoting Laura from 12:30, 28th Jun 2007


Laura, with no personal offence intended; is this really what student representation has been reduced to?

We’re not entitled to our views because we’re not as clued up on the ins and outs of university governing structures as you are! We should all shut up and let the grown ups talk in private?

Your take on the rent rise is interesting. Money needed or not; the rent for the non-dilapidated halls of residence are now above and beyond the levels of the maximum student loan! That in turn serves to increase the rent levels all across the board. As for the rebate; call me a cynic; but it seems to me that it served to do nothing more than save the SRC reps at the time from political fallout, while effectively selling out all those students who came after on the quiet! Hardly the SRC’s finest hour

Additionally; you yourself ran for Director of Representation last year on the platform of fighting the rent rises. Yet now you turn around and say how they were, actually, necessary, and we should all just shut up and accept them!

As for tarring Brian Lang with the brush for all this; maybe he’s not directly responsible for it. But then, he’s not directly responsible for several of the high-quality initiatives that have been launched in the last two years, for example, the world-class athlete program. Yet he seems perfectly happy to be associated with them, through photo ops and so forth. I have no problem with this. He’s the principle, and he should be praised for the good things that come out of the institution. However, you can’t have it both ways. In taking credit for the successes, one must also bear the fair share of the brunt for failures or shortcomings on his watch, as well as any associated damage to reputation.



[hr]

.

You're entitled to your views, I just think if you're going to take a massive stand on something, the least you could do is read something- anything on the way things work, or come and have a chat with me, or anyone else who knows about it.

If that's what you think about the rebate then whatever- SRC reps before my time worked hard to get the cost spread out and to ensure it didn't affect students already in that accommodation. I'm massively poor- I get maximum loan and my tuition fees paid and I still struggle, yet despite increases I would much rather charges (within reason, after student reps have seen figures) increase to meet the cost than privatise the system. That's maybe just me.

I ran on fighting rent rises- the first thing in office I did was to argue this. Has there been any above inflation this year? Thought not.

You'll be glad to know I vacate office tomorrow- I've helped loads of students this year, and argued a lot of points with the Uni and I STILL like Brian Lang- sorry that isn't acceptable to everyone..



[hr]

"When I came back to Dublin, I was courtmartialled in my absence and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence."