Scots should have an obligation to support England at sporting events.

[David Bean]

Got a couple of issues with your post, Frank, but what I'm most intrigued about at the moment is your signature, which quotes me from about three days ago in its second part. Was the first part something I wrote too, as the linkage between the two would seem to suggest? It doesn't look to me like something I'd have written (though presumably it would depend on the context), but you never know what a person might have said here in the heat of an argument, so I'd be intrigued to see you cite your source.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

[Frank]

Quoting David Bean from 01:27, 23rd Oct 2007
Got a couple of issues with your post, Frank,

Not entirely unsurprising. I was still thinking about this when I woke up this morning and will likely revisit the thread later in the day to ammend/retract some things. Anyhow...

Quoting David Bean from 01:27, 23rd Oct 2007 but what I'm most intrigued about at the moment is your signature, which quotes me from about three days ago in its second part. Was the first part something I wrote too, as the linkage between the two would seem to suggest?

Alas not. The first was by a chappy named 'Sigoroth' on a completely different forum, but the latter is certainly yours.

Quoting David Bean from 01:27, 23rd Oct 2007 It doesn't look to me like something I'd have written (though presumably it would depend on the context), but you never know what a person might have said here in the heat of an argument, so I'd be intrigued to see you cite your source.

To be sure: I generally disagree with the first quote, but I do admire the sentiment involved, hence keeping it around. I hadn't really considered that they are implied to be me speaking, rather'n someone else, so there might be further signature ammending to take place.

Now, back on topic...

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."
Also, some years later:
"here we are arguing about a few uppity troublemakers with a bee in their bonnet and a conspiracy theory."

[gavt]

I will give you an interesting example. Having recently moved into DRA I came into the kitchen whilst my flatmates, 3 of whom are english, were laughing at a joke. When I enquired as to what that joke was I eventually got it out of them that they had always referred to Scots as and I quote "sweaties". So of course I naturally reminded them that this sort of behaviour is the stuff that stimulates our ire and forces into calling them F****** English B*****s. At this they shut up not because I had caused them offence properly but because I had actually made them think. This form of ethnic shit has no place anywhere within any sport or beyond it but it is entirely a two-way thing and I have experienced so much anti-scottishness south of the border that it makes me laugh when an english person tries to make out their country is clean as a whistle. Why dont we all own up to the fact that as seperate countries there is always going to be a rivalry much like the French and Germans have and be done with it? When I watch the ITV evening news and there is no mention whatsoever of the high impact scottish games going on or they give a 3 second headline with no video it shows the bias. It just takes being able to own up to these things to recognise the real truth. Also if everyone liked everyone all the time life would be intensely boring!

[exnihilo]

Depends how much they liked them.

[Odysseus]

Quoting David Bean from 21:05, 22nd Oct 2007
Forgive my ignorance, and your embarassment (I assume you're the one who's embarassed by it, since I certainly am not); is it your position that this sort of behaviour is in some way a good thing, or are you merely saying that this kind of behaviour is so endemic on both sides that nothing can be done about it, and it's wrong even to object? Either argument would seem rather silly, but if, as I suspect, your point was the latter, I should think that I and any other right-thinking person would be quite justified in never wanting to go anywhere near an association football match. Frankly, however, what these people choose to get up to when locked safely away in some stadium or other is really of no concern of mine; what I object to is when they bring their intolerance out into the wider world, to the extent where a First Minister of Scotland can make laughing reference to his anti-English prejudice, to little more than the odd raised eyebrow.

The real issue as I see it is that someone who doesn't follow football can hope that Scotland, England or whoever else might do well in a general way, because they generally wish that nation well; and what we're seeing in the case of anti-English "support" is a situation where people are giving vent to quite the opposite feeling - a general sense of malice towards the place and its endeavours. That, I believe, is wrong, and ought to be frowned upon with a view to it being stamped out, not given currency by the tacit support of politicians and the media.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

This isn't some peculiar 'epidemic' for Scotland. If you'd ever been to any football match anywhere in the world, you'd see even more intense rivalries than England and Scotland. And no, I'm not saying that its a good thing, but it is so widespread that you can't really pick on Scotland (as you seem to enjoy doing) for it.

Secondly 'I should think that I and any other right-thinking person would be quite justified in never wanting to go anywhere near an association football match' - Sorry, but if you hold such a snobbish and close-minded mindset then why did you even bother posting on this thread? What is 'right-minded'? People who agree with you? You seem to have a complete lack in understanding competative football; teams have rivals, generally you don't want them to win. Does this make every football-going fan a violent racist? I don't think so...

[hr]

Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...

[Jono]

Quoting groovy from 16:55, 21st Oct 2007
Discuss.

[hr]

Remember now, there's a big difference between kneeling down and BENDING OVER!

I smell another LPH motion...


At the end of the day, I have only two teams. Wales, and whoever England happen to be playing. That's hardly a racist sentiment. There's always been, and always will be, sporting rivalry between two neibours. Be they countries, counties, towns, or whatever. I appreciate that the above sentiment can be the precursor to racism of sorts. But then you could say that about anything.

[hr]

BY FIRE; BE PURGED!


http://www.myspace.com/tauntra

[groovy]

Or perhaps in a similar vein, would it be inappropriate for Poles to support whatever team Germany happens to be playing?

Why do a large section of England fans like to see Argentina lose irregardless of who they are playing?

[hr]

Remember now, there's a big difference between kneeling down and BENDING OVER!

[Planet Telex]

Quoting Odysseus from 20:31, 22nd Oct 2007
Anti-Scottish sentiment is as rampant South of the Border as Anti-English sentiment is here.

No. It may surprise you that down in England no-one cares when Scotland are playing.
They don't have a chip on their shoulders

[hr]

IMAGE:www.forl.co.uk/003/images/dont_say_02.gif

[Frank]

Quoting Odysseus from 13:25, 23rd Oct 2007
You seem to have a complete lack in understanding competative football; teams have rivals, generally you don't want them to win.

I don't think David's point shows a complete lack in understanding competitive sports, rather that it is a fairly informed understanding.

What it does highlight is the idea that the rivalry is good. Given what Jono goes on to say, and indeed what Groovy also says, I can only see my own opinion reinforced.

That is: the rivalry is based on undesirable reasons. Irrational was perhaps the wrong word to use earlier in the thread as I suspect it is quite rational. Instead I'd say 'undesirable' seems more sensible. That is: I think allowing and indulging rivalry in your own mind is a poor move, but I cannot yet pinpoint precisely why I suggest that.

Just because rivalry is part of the 'human condition' or whatever it is that's the root of all this, I cannot see why we would think it proper or right to indulge. Indeed alot of things point to it being a bad thing.

But there we are. The point I was making: I suspect David understands it rather than doesn't understand it.

Further: Rivalry and War.

England vs Argentina
Poland vs Germany

A correlation?


[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."
Also, some years later:
"here we are arguing about a few uppity troublemakers with a bee in their bonnet and a conspiracy theory."

[Super Jock]

Well aren't the English related quite closely to the Germans? I don't see you supporting them, in-fact the complete opposite. In norm, most of my English sporting friends support against their closer countries like France and Germany, just cause there is a rivalry. I'm not saying you hate the French or Germans, just it's part of sport.

What the English and Scots, who don't understand the lack mutual support, and subsequently think it's all they're northern barbarian neighbors fault, is that despite being close to each other geographically, politically and economically we are still DIFFERENT countries, culturally. I don't see the big deal.

I'd like to support England, but every-time I get a slight pang that I'm perhaps being unfair and illogical, I'm confronted by another reason to want our southern neighbor to shut up, and hence not win.

Eg.

It was NOT a try. Many of my English friends have accepted this, as when ones foot touches the white line, which it did, your out, but many of my English friends become hysterical, as if you've just said the holocaust and Hiroshima/Nagasaki were justified.

Or English media figures, refer to Scots as leeching spongers on national TV, and wasn't fired. If it's Scottish it's an opinion... Black, Asian, it's racist.

As for the Mcfadden goal, it was only 2 months ago. Let us have something to remember, at least our memory actually went in the net, unlike the 66 memory. But I was reading international media after it, and only England wasn't that bothered about the win in Paris.

All I'm gonna say in summary, well done to England for getting to the final. I hope England qualify for europe, only so when we beat italy and qualify too, we'll get the chance to be the team that put you out x

[hr]

http://standrews.facebook.com/profile.php?id=37104907

[4???2]

No they should not.

P.S. I wanted Hamilton to lose...

P.P.S. Anyone else noticed Scotish winners tend to be British while Scots who lose seem to remain scots..?

[nighteyes]

Ok so the dogs abuse I got at the calcutta cup last year didnt exist. interesting. Those english fans sure seemed to have a chip on their shoulders...and they won...

Quoting Planet Telex from 14:05, 23rd Oct 2007

Quoting Odysseus from 20:31, 22nd Oct 2007
Anti-Scottish sentiment is as rampant South of the Border as Anti-English sentiment is here.

No. It may surprise you that down in England no-one cares when Scotland are playing.
They don't have a chip on their shoulders

[hr]

IMAGE:www.forl.co.uk/003/images/dont_say_02.gif

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[Planet Telex]

Well, yes when it's an England vs Scotland game, the English will support England.

Great point

Quoting nighteyes from 15:57, 24th Oct 2007
Ok so the dogs abuse I got at the calcutta cup last year didnt exist. interesting. Those english fans sure seemed to have a chip on their shoulders...and they won...

Quoting Planet Telex from 14:05, 23rd Oct 2007

Quoting Odysseus from 20:31, 22nd Oct 2007
Anti-Scottish sentiment is as rampant South of the Border as Anti-English sentiment is here.

No. It may surprise you that down in England no-one cares when Scotland are playing.
They don't have a chip on their shoulders

[hr]

IMAGE:www.forl.co.uk/003/images/dont_say_02.gif

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[hr]

IMAGE:www.forl.co.uk/003/images/dont_say_02.gif

[nighteyes]

My point was not that I was expecting England to be supporting Scotland but that there is such a thing as anti-scottish sentiment. They were hardly saying "hard luck but good game anyways". And that was only one example when I was in England. At a Scotland v Wales rugby game and English chap got in my face when Wales scored a try. He was rather intimidating being about a foot taller than me. Guess he felt safe being a prick towards a girl and not one of the guys in the pub.

[hr]

i didnt say i was consistant, just right!

[Sweenie]

No-one should have an obligation to support anyone, as someone once said to me, "Its our country, we can support who we want". The whole anti-english thing, as other people have said, has its roots in the media. And its not just the major points, of they dont stop going on about things, its the more discrete points as well. For instance, the "UK" msn home page a few days ago, had the headline "Bad Sporting Week for Britain", yet the 3 pictures accompanying it were Lewis Hamilton, and the English football and rugby teams...not any of the other "UK" countries.