Homeless in St Andrews?

[schmod]

I was a bit taken aback earlier today, when a desparate-looking elderly woman and young girl stopped me on Market Street and asked for money to buy something warm.

Although this wouldn't have surprised me all that much in a large city, I'm a bit perplexed to see it here. As far as I know St Andrews doesn't have a homeless population, given that the police would take care of it almost immediately, and that there's virtually no place to find cheap food/shelter.

On the other hand, it also doesn't seem likely that these two people were trying to con a few quid out of random passersby, given that there aren't nearly enough people here to make that sort of activity a profitable enterprise, not to mention the aforementioned police presence.

Did anybody else run into this couple today? Regardless of the circumstance, I'm concerned for the young girl.....

[Duggeh]

There are people who bus from Dundee, beg here and then bus back with their takings. The Big Issue sellers all come from out of town too. I give the beggers nothing and don't buy the Big Issue. Although the reason I don't buy the Big Issue is because its shite.

The guy who sometimes stands outside Tesco or at the alley from market street to church square and busks with a flute cant play at all. I don't throw him any money.

I've also been asked by an Indian sounding woman to give her money to help feed her brothers. I gave her nothing.

I also got asked for a donation to "Help the monks sir?" a few weeks back by a man with a clipboard. I paused about this because the whole Burma thing was still making the news, ever suspicious as I am though about people who will actually stop you to ask for free money I asked him "What monks?" to which he replied "The Hare Krishna monks.".

I looked him square in the eye and said "Not a fucking chance." Theres no way I am going to subsidise his cult when theres proper charities or real religious organisations I could chose to give my money to.


You were stopped by an old woman and a young girl? Curious combination that, a child and an elderly person, with a generation gap, and both female as well, that sounds like a calculated choice to engender the greatest amount of pity from punters.


To counter your nominally hopeful points which attempt to gloss over your doubts with the sugar coating of your hopes. There are more than enough people out and about in St Andrews to make begging like this worth it. If there weren't, they wouldn't try.

If you want to help the homeless, give to a charity which deals with the homeless, like Shelter, that way you can know for certain that your conscience salve is going to be used for what you hope it will be, instead of going on baccy, booze, drugs or into the mattress back at the gypsy camp.

[hr]

IMAGE:www.thismanwillkillyou.com/avatars/tb3-100.jpg
Duggeh: Master Of Ceremonies
-Welcome to The Sinner. Sorry about your thin skin.

[Steveo]

I'd always assumed the frost took care of 'the homeless question' for us.

[hr]

Get off my internet.

[househunter]

Quoting Duggeh from 23:33, 3rd Feb 2008
Although the reason I don't buy the Big Issue is because its shite.

This is my reason too, if they sold porn or something I'd be more willing to part with a quid.

[Al]

As noted above, there's always been a few people willing to chance their arm with a bit of begging in St Andrews. I was once approached by someone asking for the location of the soup kitchen in St Andrews. And then for some money. Still, while I was at St Andrews, one of the worst offenders for cadging money was a quite well-off local. And he wasn't rich just because he was good at cadging money.

[SchizophrenicCabbage]

I've often thought of whether or not to bother giving money to beggars/homeless etc. Some argue that they'll just waste it on cigarettes, drugs, alcohol etc... but then again, I'd probably also use it for drink/clothes I'll wear a few times etc. So, if the vices make them happy, who am I to be the hypocrite?

That said, unless I see a person in a sleeping bag and properly roughing it or doing a decent attempt at busking on the Underground, they can forget it. I am a sucker for a canine companion though - yeah, they might be a gimmick but, still, that dog does exist and always seem loyal to their masters, implying, to me, that dog is loved - not just left at home all day waiting for the 2.4 family to come home.

Speaking of crap buskers - anyone hear that God-awful guitarist on Market Street a few weeks ago? I would have paid him to shut up.

I don't buy 'The Big Issue' mainly because the issue for me is about where that thing has been.

[SchizophrenicCabbage]

Oh, and before the witch-hunt begins... by 'that thing' I mean the magazine not the vendor.

[Frank]

I used to give money out quite freely. Certainly when I was in Glasgow for a summer, I was pretty confident that anyone begging was genuinely 'just begging' and not up to any funny business.

By funny business I mean "I need to borrow money to try to get to Dundee because my dad threw me down the stars for no reason and chucked me out my house and my grandmother's in hospital in Dundee and she's only got a few hours left and...etc. Can you spare £20?"

Similarly, given we live in St Andrews, I suspect (with little basis, alas) that my time (and money) is far better spent charitably in our wealth of charity shops and not on people who've got time to show up in/commute to St Andrews. And if they are homeless in St Andrews it's a bloody stupid place to pick to be homeless. Do we have a soup-kitchen sort of thing?

That said, my conscience give's me a hell of a time on this thing because I can't bloody figure it out or summon up enough balls to simply be a selfish person properly.

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."
Also, some years later:
"here we are arguing about a few uppity troublemakers with a bee in their bonnet and a conspiracy theory."

[halcyonhalogen]

Holy Moley! You guys don't even have a heart between youse.

The scriptures teach that it's better for a man to sit on the temple steps and beg than to go to work with a heavy soul (or words to that effect).

Be kind. It just might be you one day, you never know.

[the_leish]

Quoting halcyonhalogen from 10:57, 4th Feb 2008
Holy Moley! You guys don't even have a heart between youse.

The scriptures teach that it's better for a man to sit on the temple steps and beg than to go to work with a heavy soul (or words to that effect).

Be kind. It just might be you one day, you never know.

Snore!

[hr]

Apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population. Amazing...

[Frank]

Quoting halcyonhalogen from 10:57, 4th Feb 2008
Holy Moley! You guys don't even have a heart between youse.

The scriptures teach that it's better for a man to sit on the temple steps and beg than to go to work with a heavy soul (or words to that effect).

Be kind. It just might be you one day, you never know.

It isn't a matter of being kind, for me. It's a matter of doing something that I think is likely to help out.

In other news: Prove souls exist. I can see and define and detect poverty, but don't invoke things that might or might not exist!

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."
Also, some years later:
"here we are arguing about a few uppity troublemakers with a bee in their bonnet and a conspiracy theory."

[Dickie]

There are homeless people in St Andrews. Not all homeless people live in cardboard boxes in back allies.

[hr]

http://facebook.com/p.php?id=37106107&l=217e435e0a

[the_leish]

Quoting Dickie from 18:04, 4th Feb 2008
There are homeless people in St Andrews. Not all homeless people live in cardboard boxes in back allies.

Where do they live then?

[hr]

Apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population. Amazing...

[Rob]

Did you not throw your toys out the pram and piss off long ago?

Quoting Duggeh from 23:33, 3rd Feb 2008
There are people who bus from Dundee, beg here and then bus back with their takings. The Big Issue sellers all come from out of town too. I give the beggers nothing and don't buy the Big Issue. Although the reason I don't buy the Big Issue is because its shite.

The guy who sometimes stands outside Tesco or at the alley from market street to church square and busks with a flute cant play at all. I don't throw him any money.

I've also been asked by an Indian sounding woman to give her money to help feed her brothers. I gave her nothing.

I also got asked for a donation to "Help the monks sir?" a few weeks back by a man with a clipboard. I paused about this because the whole Burma thing was still making the news, ever suspicious as I am though about people who will actually stop you to ask for free money I asked him "What monks?" to which he replied "The Hare Krishna monks.".

I looked him square in the eye and said "Not a fucking chance." Theres no way I am going to subsidise his cult when theres proper charities or real religious organisations I could chose to give my money to.


You were stopped by an old woman and a young girl? Curious combination that, a child and an elderly person, with a generation gap, and both female as well, that sounds like a calculated choice to engender the greatest amount of pity from punters.


To counter your nominally hopeful points which attempt to gloss over your doubts with the sugar coating of your hopes. There are more than enough people out and about in St Andrews to make begging like this worth it. If there weren't, they wouldn't try.

If you want to help the homeless, give to a charity which deals with the homeless, like Shelter, that way you can know for certain that your conscience salve is going to be used for what you hope it will be, instead of going on baccy, booze, drugs or into the mattress back at the gypsy camp.

[hr]

IMAGE:www.thismanwillkillyou.com/avatars/tb3-100.jpg
Duggeh: Master Of Ceremonies
-Welcome to The Sinner. Sorry about your thin skin.

[Al]

Quoting the_leish from 21:24, 4th Feb 2008

Quoting Dickie from 18:04, 4th Feb 2008
There are homeless people in St Andrews. Not all homeless people live in cardboard boxes in back allies.

Where do they live then?

There is - or was - a hostel for the homeless at Sandyhill Road. And the council used to pay for some homeless people to stay in B&Bs.

[Black Rose]

Quoting schmod from 22:22, 3rd Feb 2008
I was a bit taken aback earlier today, when a desparate-looking elderly woman and young girl stopped me on Market Street and asked for money to buy something warm.

I think i was stopped by the same woman only she had a boy and a girl and it was on Bell Street. She said she wanted to go to a womans shelter in Dundee. To be honest i had no reason to disbelive her. I gave her money and hopefully she got there, if you gave her money too she was bound to get enough to make it there.

[fluffy]

someone stopped me and said her boyfriend had kicked her out and she needed to get to dundee. i offered to buy her food but she didn't want it.

[hr]

dev ksereis, alla eimai trella erotebmevei mazi sou..

[Dickie]

Paper by John Mills Housing Manager (Allocations & Homelessness) Fife Council Housing Services.

FIFE HOMELESSNESS STRATEGY (2003/08) – Enhancing the Provision of Temporary Accommodation for Homeless People in St. Andrews Locality

1.0 Introduction

1.1 This brief Report aims to seek formal views from the St. Andrews Community Council on ways and means to expand the current provision of temporary accommodation in St. Andrews Locality. Fife Council is beginning a period of consultation with a range of stakeholders in the Locality to arrive at a preferred option, or package of options to achieve the enhancement of provision for homeless people.

2.0 Homelessness Needs Assessment

2.1 Homeless People presenting in St. Andrews Locality cover the spectrum of society, from young people seeking their first home to professionals, through to elderly people who lose their home. On average, 6 homeless households request interviews with the Homelessness Officers per week.

2.2 A key element in the development of the Fife Homelessness Strategy is the Homelessness Needs Assessment. Craigforth Consultants, commissioned by Fife Council undertook the research. A range of homelessness services in East Fife, provided by a number of Statutory and Voluntary agencies, were analysed and mapped. 9 Projects stated that they provided services in St. Andrews Locality, 22% of the total of Fife Homeless projects. This represents the lowest figure in Fife, along with Howe of Fife and Taybridgehead. The area analysis reveals clients in East Fife are less likely than in other areas of Fife to be able to access services in the area they come from.

Table 1 – Locality Areas where a homelessness service can be provided

Area Number of Projects Percentage of Projects in Fife
EAST FIFE
Cupar 11 27%
Howe of Fife 9 22%
Tay Bridgehead 9 22%
St. Andrews 9 22%
East Neuk 10 24%

2.2 “An analysis of the type of services by area (across Fife) shows the paucity of services in East Fife. Just 12 Services said they could provide services in East Fife... Only two are located in St. Andrews and four in Cupar”. (p. 41, Fife Homelessness Needs Assessment)

2.3 In relation to the provision of temporary accommodation, the Research confirmed that proportionately, East Fife had the lowest provision of temporary accommodation in Fife.

“Just three Projects provide temporary accommodation as their primary focus (in East Fife) .... East Fife Womens Aid, Cornerstone in Cupar, and Fife Council Temporary Accommodation Service” (p.80 Fife Homelessness Needs Assessment”.

2.4 In the case of St. Andrews Locality, the provision is limited to two Services.

Table 2 – temporary accommodation in St. Andrews

Temporary Accommodation Service Fife Council Women’s Aid Supported Accommodation
Individual Properties 11 4

The occupancy rate within the existing temporary accommodation is over 95% at any time and is in high demand. As at 27th November, there are approximately 30 households either in other temporary accommodation in Fife who emanate from St. Andrews Locality, or have made their own arrangements pending an offer of available temporary or permanent housing. "Homeless at Home” is recognised by the Scottish Executive as a legitimate form of temporary accommodation, where homeless people can make their own short-term arrangements.

3.0 Fife Homelessness Strategy (2003/08)

3.1 The Strategy was endorsed by Fife Council and NHS Fife in June 2003. One of the main objectives of the Strategy is to ensure that emergency temporary accommodation is always available to homeless people. A requirement of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001, is that Fife Council has a duty to provide temporary accommodation to all homeless people. In Fife we accommodate non-priority homeless households for 28 days following their homelessness decision. This period enables the Council and the homeless person to find a solution to their short-term accommodation and other needs.

3.2 Fife Council is committed to working in partnership with Local Communities and Agencies to enhance the provision of temporary accommodation in East Fife. The East Area Services Committee accepted the need for additional accommodation in St. Andrews.

3.3 Appendix 1 represents a Review of temporary accommodation options for consideration and discussion . Views from St. Andrews Community Council, and other Community Councils in the Locality, as well as from other organisations such as Churches will be sought over the next 3 months. The next steps involve the collation of Community views, and reporting to the East Area Services Committee in March 2004.

4.0 Conclusion

4.1 The need to enhance the provision of temporary accommodation is outlined in the Report. What form the additional provision will take will be based on views from the Communities in St. Andrews Locality. Fife Council is committed to the implementation of the Fife Homelessness Strategy with the support of all Stakeholders.

5.0 Recommendation

5.1 The St. Andrews Community Council is requested to consider the preferred options for enhancing temporary accommodation within St. Andrews, and to provide feedback to Fife Council.

Fife Homelessness Strategy (2003/08) – St. Andrews Temporary Accommodation Options

Temporary Accommodation Option Current Provision Description
Permanent Accommodation 50% of annual allocations to homelessness in St. Andrews Temporary accommodation is only necessary where
• Homelessness assessment and/or investigation is ongoing
• Insufficient permanent accommodation in the Locality
To support an increasing pressure for temporary accommodation, the Council could decide to increase the level of homelessness allocations in St. Andrews to a higher level.
Homeless Hostel
1. 10-bed Hostel
2. 3-4 bed Hostel Nil Provision based on a number of bedrooms and shared communal facilities within a single building. A staff Team of 5 working shifts would staff the Unit on a 24/7 basis. The level of housing support provided can range from low to high level support. The requirement in St. Andrews would be for a low-level support Unit for homeless people. Clients needs would be for straightforward temporary accommodation.
Individual properties
(1) Procurement from letting stock
(2) Purchase of properties
(3) Private leasing 11 existing
4 new in pipeline
4 East Fife Womens Aid The commonest form of temporary accommodation used in St. Andrews Locality.
(1) The Local Office offers empty properties to the Homelessness Service for direct provision of temporary accommodation, or for use as supported accommodation, e.g. Womens Aid. The properties are fully furnished and can be returned to the Local Office for let as permanent accommodation following at least 3 years of use. The Local Office would replace the temporary accommodation with another property.
(2) Predecessor District Councils engaged in buying properties on the open market (usually former Council properties sold under Right to Buy) to supplement the stock in an area.
(3) North East Fife DC established a Private Leasing Scheme with Private Sector Landlords. This type of scheme can be a useful addition to enhancing the pool of temporary accommodation.
B&B Nil Least favoured form of temporary accommodation due to lack of control of standards of accommodation, services to homeless people, and high costs. Homeless Service currently book clients into B&B accommodation into Levenmouth & Kirkcaldy. A Fife B&B contract will be let by February/March 2004 to regulate standards, control costs, and improve services to clients. B&B should only ever be used for short-stays and for emergencies (fire & flood).
Homeless at Home 30 households Good Practice recognises the contribution that “Homeless at Home” can make to a temporary accommodation strategy. In these circumstances, homeless people make their own arrangements to stay with friends or relatives until they can be assisted into temporary accommodation, or can be made an offer of permanent accommodation. In effect, in East Fife, this is the most common form of temporary accommodation used due to shortage of other options.
Caravans/
Portacabins/
Logcabins Nil The purchase or lease of caravans is an option for consideration. Previous experience of their use for decanting tenants from their homes during modernisation works.
The use of Portacabins has a precedent in North East Fife, in Strathmiglo. This was a successful provision but discontinued in the early 1990’s due to vandalism and the high repair costs.
Option Advantages Disadvantages
Homeless Hostel
1. 10-bed Hostel
2. 3-4 bed Hostel Whether directly managed by the Council, or indirectly through a Voluntary Sector Provider, a high standard of accommodation, support services, and amenity can be guaranteed and maintained, Hostels are cost effective in revenue terms, if there is an adequate number of residents on one site. 9-10 bedrooms is the desired size for this type of provision. A smaller building/fewer number of bedrooms can provide a less-institutionalised provision. Particularly difficult to locate suitable properties at the right price in the right location for use as a hostel. High Cost of provision – typical cost for new build or rehabilitated building can reach £400-500,000.
Consultation with homeless people confirms this type of shared accommodation as less popular than single – occupation or individual properties.
Smaller hostels are not cost-effective as there are fewer rents to offset staffing and other revenue costs.
Individual properties (1) Recognised as most popular form of temporary accommodation with homeless people. Recognised as Best Practice.
Typical cost of provision is £5,000 per unit, if selected from the Council’s Stock.
(2) Purchasing properties from the private sector would alleviate the pressure on the letting stock in St. Andrews.
(3) As above, leasing temporary accommodation in the private sector could ease pressure to take units from the letting stock. (1) A balance needs to be maintained between taking properties from the letting stock and the provision of permanent accommodation to homeless people.
This requirement limits the number of temporary accommodation units that can be selected.
(2) The cost of acquisition, particularly in a high-cost property area, is likely to be considerable. Current estimate to purchase 4-5 properties could cost £400-450,000.
(3) Cost of provision is higher than in the public sector.
B&B Relative, ease of access where the Homelessness Service has reached agreement with proprietors to house homeless people. This is not the case in all parts of Fife, particularly St. Andrews.
Preferred option by some homeless people due to relative lack of rules and restrictions applying to them. This is the least favoured option for Councils, guided by Government Strategy. There are a number of practical issues arising from the use of B&B: • Poor standards
• Poor level of services for residents
• Clients tend to be not supported by Homelessness Service, although this is improving
• Seen as not cost-effective for the Council – income from charges does not match expenditure.

Homeless at Home Main advantage is no financial cost to Council. Some homeless people do have this as an option if they understanding friends or relatives. By using this option, homeless people can usually stay in their own Localities. Two main disadvantages:
• Council is not meeting its statutory obligation to temporarily accommodate homeless people in its area.
• We have experience where homeless people are at risk of further violence where they cannot access accommodation and go back to unsafe situations.
Caravans /
Portacabins /
Logcabins
Caravans – relatively low cost if leasing/renting option is selected. Standard of accommodation can be quite high, depending on age and condition of caravan. Portcabins/Logcabins – Higher standard of accommodation can be achieved at a higher cost. More acceptable than Caravans due to semi-permanence of sites. Are used in Rural Local Authorities where housing supply is low.
Caravans – procuring new sites a major issue due to non-availability of housing sites in St. Andrews Locality. Question mark over whether homeless people should be placed in this form of temporary accommodation, and whether it would be regarded as second-class accommodation.
Portacabins/Logcabins – issues consistent with those for Caravans. Higher cost than Caravans to establish, but more acceptable than Caravans.


[hr]

http://facebook.com/p.php?id=37106107&l=217e435e0a

[Big X]

i actually cannot believe so many people give these total fucking wasters money for spinning these incredibly tall tales, i really like the fact that they all revolove around getting back to dundee becuase aliens have just impregnated their daughters and their husbands are gonna teach them a lesson by making them walk the planks off the Discovery or some other shit. my first question, HOW THE FUCK DID U END UP HERE? st andrews is in the middle of nowhere u actually need to want to get to actually get here. these no hopers come here for one reason, and it aint to flee the aliens and the cat o' nine tails - THEY ARE HERE TO TAKE MONEY FROM YOU!! they come here becuase they think people in st andys are a soft touch, and they are right.

i now live in london and everynow and again on the tube or the overland i'm sitting down and then the classic speech (often in a dundonian accent actually) starts up "EXCUSE ME LADIES AND GENTS, I'M COLLECTING (i love that, no mate, ure begging) BECAUSE I JUST NEED 35 POUNDS FOR ME TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN THE HOMELESS SHELTER DOWN THE ROAD TONIGHT (what, i'm sorry, 35 quid?! there are fuckin b+b;s cheaper than that by victoria station) I'VE ALREADY BEEN FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE £20 SO IF U COULD JUST SPARE ANOTHER 15 OUNDS I'LL BE ABLE TO SLEEP INSIDE TONIGHT AND NOT FREEZE (this is often followed by some touching meterological comment about how cold/wet/rainy/sleety/snowy/frosty is was last night). i mean i find it hard not to laugh at these tall tales, i mean i've heard more likely shit in Arabian Nights.

at least the guys in st andys arent always fucked, i mean the ones in london are insane. there is this one guy JOGS around the embankment and the south bank wearing pretty tight shorts and a t-shirt with a massive bum bag crammed full of STELLA (i cant even afford cans of that shit) and a boom box. he stops everynow and again to down a can of wife beater and so some stretches and then jogs on!! then in the morning he has the audacity to ask me for some spare change as i trudge past him on the way to school!! one of these days i'm gonna throw a full pint can of stella directly at his head instead.

change the fuckin record and dedicate all the time u do begging/drinking/fucked off ure face pissing ureself on a matress by the imax to sorting ure waste of a life out.

rant over

[hr]

"Never apologise for showing feeling, in doing so you apologise for truth" Disraeli

[Dirac]

I completely agree with BigX on this subject.