The failure of the Bop...finally, the REAL story.

[Director of Services]

There's been a lot of ideas and suggestions mentioned in this thread, however I cannot act on them unless they are presented to me formally.

If you have any comments or things you would like to change with any of the entertainment or services the union provides, please either email me or book an appointment to talk to me. My office has an awsome sofa, so everyone can relax and feel comfortable.

Someone specifically mentioned that there should be a way for people to make recommendations for music to be played. In the last 2 weeks of linkup emails and in the entertainment news articles I have included a way of the students doing this.
Please have a look at my news articles by following the link below:
http://www.yourunion.net/news/index.php?page=article&news_id=8270#mus

I hope to hear from you soon.

It's your union, make a difference.

Regards

Rich Robinson

[munchingfoo]

Excuse me?


If you see a good idea somewhere, you can't act on it? That is just utter madness. Of course you can!

What if you had the idea yourself? Would you report it to yourself through formal channels?

Perhaps I misunderstand your reply Rich, or perhaps you misworded it and skewed your meaning?

[hr]

[s]Warning : The sinner is a plateau, with moral high ground manifesting itself as an optical illusion in the the bearers mind.[/s]

[ct3012]

Quoting scotlandposse2010 from 21:38, 11th Feb 2008
simply because it's not quite as dance-able as other genres.

That's rubbish and you know it. For people who don't necessarily want to have to be totally drunk to enjoy the bop that kind of music is so much better than the trance/dance/rap/rnb that's over played week-in-week-out. Something that you can actually jump around to with your friends, not just stand there waving your arms or fake-raving to.

[munchingfoo]

Anyone who is arguing purely based on their personal tastes on this thread is selfish or ignorant.

[s](Irony in my tag )[/s]

[hr]

[s]Warning : The sinner is a plateau, with moral high ground manifesting itself as an optical illusion in the the bearers mind.[/s]

[Brian Lung]

1. The Venue sucks so so bad. Take a step back from everything and realize this. Or, if you can't realize this immediately, go to another uni's campus, and you'll see they don't host nights at the union in such a bad venue. Sadly this can't be changed overnight. 2. The music (and this is not just a personal opinion, it' quite common) is high-school disco material. 3. The service at the bar is so bad at times, but Sandy doesn't seem to care. And he employs some real wastes of space at times. What's the benefit in paying a premium if it takes you half an hour to get a drink? You'd have to be daft, and the perception that many people who do this are so inclined drives away the rest. Good luck to who-over is wasting their year trying to turn things around.

[scotlandposse2010]

Quoting ct3012 from 17:35, 15th Feb 2008

Quoting scotlandposse2010 from 21:38, 11th Feb 2008
simply because it's not quite as dance-able as other genres.

That's rubbish and you know it. For people who don't necessarily want to have to be totally drunk to enjoy the bop that kind of music is so much better than the trance/dance/rap/rnb that's over played week-in-week-out. Something that you can actually jump around to with your friends, not just stand there waving your arms or fake-raving to.

Actually, it seems like house music and good rnb would be the kind of music you wouldn't have to be drunk to enjoy. Remember, the majority of students interviewed said they only enjoyed the Bop because of the level of inebriation. Take a look at the Bop tonight - most of it was high-school disco material as the guy before me described.

It's not so much even about personal taste. If I had it my way, the Bop would consist of jazz music all night long. I just think that the Bop should cater to a wider audience of people, which would mean less cheeze.

[hr]

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[Fawksie]

Quoting Director of Services from 16:28, 15th Feb 2008
It's your union, make a difference.

Is this the Association's new slogan? At least it's better than the asinine "your union - do stuff" which preceded it.

[cbawithbops]

I have to agree with "Brian Lung" - I really can't be bothered queueing for forty minutes to get a drink.

If you go into the bar on the side of Venue 1, at leat one of the shutters on the bar is down all the time. The result? Everybody bunches up at one side and four bar staff serve through a single (or sometimes two) hatches. Why not open all of them and let's spread out a bit.

[Frank]

A couple fo things have been mentioned here:

1- Music
2- Venue
3- Drinks

Those'd e the core problems with the bop, yeah? Once those are 'sorted' then things like 'perception', 'attendance' and 'marketting' should swiftly follow, surely?

So, what's the dealio?

1- Music

Here, and I think this is crucial, there must be a variety. Intersperse a good bit of cheese with some quite modern 'pop' (i.e. tunes that are of themselves quite widely popular 'these days') with a few bits of more dated classics (but ones that aren't cheese).

Obscure stuff? This really ought to be the DJ's territory, but I cannot see how obscure stuff would work in the bop environment. The DJ set there needn't be an experimental aural sensation, but simply a 'bland' set that caters ably for a variety of tastes. Not jumping from one 'undefinable musical subgenre' to another, but varied. Have the musical sets tied well to one another and flow over the course of an evening.

I'm no expert, but my expectation would be that there's surely nothing worse in the middle of a bop than going from something utterly intoxicating (a great classic/cheese icon) to something utterly bizarre. Getting a format right for the music would be key. once that's done, the vast majority of folks won't really be able to sustain their complaints about the bop.

Sure, the music varieties would vary (so a fair few folks won't like it at any given point), but if the music keeps changing (but not hugely) then that'd be the kind of thing that'd work. It'd be desirable to be...bland yet enjoyable all at the same time. To draw a restaurant analogy: Serving a straight-forward chicken dish or pasta might be much more appealing than an expertly cooked piece of seafood.

2- Venue

I like Venue 1, it's certainly the biggest we've got, but I can't see what the issue is with it. I don't think it's that good, all told, but that's not the point. There might be something that can be...done to it that'd simply make it more appealing. I can't see what, to be honest, but there might be something. A slight modification might be all that's needed to perfect or better the venue, and might be much more feasible (in the short term, at least) than a massive rearranging of the venue (as was proposed under the Union Redevelopment stuff a while back, that was: 'splitting' Venue 1 into two smaller venues with different stuff which have a larger bar in common between them).

3- Drinks

I don't know much about barstaff, barwork or really organising a team of workers, but I suspect tha's the heart of the issue. At times there's simply not enough people around. It's too busy and the bars are just...clogged. Almost impossibly so.

Similarly, at othertimes, when it's not so busy, having 'the shutters' down simply looks imposing. Perhaps there is a method of reorganising all that that'd be more viable?

Perhaps a hired cadre of reserve staff who aren't assured permanent working hours, but can be called in no and again when it's a really busy night? (I really don't know how the staffing works currently...)

But in any case

It strikes me that it's only these three issues that present the real problem with the bop. Something bland but enjoyable, 'traditional' so to speak. Cheese is all well and good for me, but I do like a bit of a clubby setup too. But nothing too much in any one direction unless it's a special-bop, of course!



[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."
Also, some years later:
"here we are arguing about a few uppity troublemakers with a bee in their bonnet and a conspiracy theory."

[Abserdman]

As regards to the bar...

1. The middle shutter in venue 1 is permenantly closed because there's a big woodn thing behind it which hold the tonic/blackcurrant etc. It's hard to serve drinks over the top of it, so no staff work there To keep people from queing somewhere where they're not gonna get served, the shutter stays down. It makes sense.

2. The end shutters in the main bar are normally down because the very end of the bar is used to store things or is the space for the DJs we sometimes have in the bar. No drinks get served there, so again we stop people queing there.

3. Having more bar staff behind the bar can sometimes make it harder for us to work, because it's only a small space and so too many barstaff can make your drinks come slower rather tan faster.

4. Plus, most of the staff are students too and want to go out on a Friday the same as everybody else! We currently operate a system where no-one is allowed two fridays (or tuesdays) off in a row, unless it's for something special when they have to make the time up in another week.

5. A lot of the problems with the queues is the customers. For example people stand in front of the bar whe they're not queuing, or three or people go up from the same group to get drinks at the same time. You can help us to get the queues down by moving away from the bar once you have your drink or by sending one person to buy drinks instead of three or four.

Also, know what you're ordering when you get to the bar rather than deciding once you get there. It's annoying for us when we get to you and you have no idea what you want to drink.

Brian Lung, Sandy does care. But there is a limit to what he can do. He can't magic the queues away, make a bigger bar or make more bar staff appear out of thin air! And as for calling us a "waste of space", at least we're trying to help. If you want to make the queues go that badly, get on the other side of the bar! It's just as hectic, if not more so! Dont abuse us if you don't know what it's like.

Rant over.

[groovy]

As a member of barstaff, I can confirm that the middle shutter in Venue1 is down because the locking mechanism is broken, and not for ANY other reason.

[hr]

Remember now, there's a big difference between kneeling down and BENDING OVER!

[Students Association]

Quoting Fawksie from 10:41, 16th Feb 2008

Quoting Director of Services from 16:28, 15th Feb 2008
It's your union, make a difference.

Is this the Association's new slogan? At least it's better than the asinine "your union - do stuff" which preceded it.

Asinine? Hardly.

Almost every aspect of student life in St Andrews involves the Union in some way or another (the exceptions being your academic work and sports events).
Whatever you do, be it hillwalking with Breakaway, a national poker tournament with Pokersoc, appealing against an unfair grade, improving the quality of lectures or even just using a condom, it can be done with the assistance of the Union (the Students' Association). If there's something that isn't currently being assisted in some way by the Union (even if simply through funding), the option is there for you to ask for assistance to do it.

Thus the slogan "Your Union - Do Stuff" was intended to both display the Union's involvement in most aspects of St Andrews student life, and to encourage people to get inolved and make things happen.


Incidentally, the St Andrews Students' Association supports its affiliated societies to a greater extent than any other Students' Association or Union in the country. Approximately £30,000 of funding was divided between our 100+ societies last year (perhaps our Societies Officer or Grants Convenor could provide the exact figures here?), suggesting that a great many of you ARE "doing stuff" which probably wouldn't have been possible without the Union.

But in answer to your question, "Make a difference" isn't the Union's new slogan - it's merely the general ethos which helps everyone work together to make it better.

[ljrmorgan]

The service could be made a lot faster if the bar was simply redesigned a bit, it wouldn't cost very much and would probably be made up pretty quickly by the increased sales. For example:
+ Replacing the coke/lemonade tap things (don't know the technical term) with soda guns - these would also take up less space.
+ Getting rid of the optics, or at least using them less and instead having speed rails at the front of the bar with the most commonly used bottles in them - it takes about 3.5 seconds to pour a 25ml measure - a lot quicker than trying to find the right optic at a busy bar and then finding the bloody thing's jammed, then trying to stop it leaking etc etc. It happens, especially with things like sambucca/sweet sugary things.
+ Instead of keeping juice in the fridges at the back of the bar put juice in dispensers and keep them at the front of the bar in the speed rails - its far quicker, and means you don't have endless cartons open in every fridge etc. Also by using different colour pourers you can distinguish easily between the different juices instead of hunting through a fridge.
+ Put more ice stations in.
+ If you did all the above you could also keep the spirit and mixer glasses at the front of the bar - that way you would never need to go to the back of the bar at all - cuts off a few seconds each time which all adds up on a friday night.
+ Employ someone to work back bar - at least on busy nights - monitoring what's about to run out and get replacements ready, its a far better idea than having barstaff running off halfway through serving people to get more vodka/whatever only to find out that all the other staff are doing the same. If it fairly quiet the back bar guy/girl could rotate glasses so the first glasses bar staff reached for were cold ones instead of ones just out of the washer.
+ Stop using branded glasses - staff hunting for the right glass takes longer, and I'd rather have my pint in an unbranded glass than in a warm stella one that's just come out the washer but is being used because it's the only one left.
+ Train the staff more - I'm not trying to attack the bar staff, they have a hectic job and get paid badly for doing it - but if they were trained more everything would run a lot more smoothly.
+ Move things around - the bars are quite small, you want as much of it open as possible, so move things away from the hatches that are never used.

I would have thought most of that was fairly common sense really, I worked in the union last year and then in another bar over the summer and was quite surprised how much more thought out everything was, and even that bar was quite badly managed, so god knows what a decent bar would be like.

[ljrmorgan]

Quoting ljrmorgan from 19:03, 16th Feb 2008
The service could be made a lot faster if the bar was simply redesigned a bit, it wouldn't cost very much and would probably be made up pretty quickly by the increased sales. For example:
+ Replacing the coke/lemonade tap things (don't know the technical term) with soda guns - these would also take up less space.
+ Getting rid of the optics, or at least using them less and instead having speed rails at the front of the bar with the most commonly used bottles in them - it takes about 3.5 seconds to pour a 25ml measure - a lot quicker than trying to find the right optic at a busy bar and then finding the bloody thing's jammed, then trying to stop it leaking etc etc. It happens, especially with things like sambucca/sweet sugary things.
+ Instead of keeping juice in the fridges at the back of the bar put juice in dispensers and keep them at the front of the bar in the speed rails - its far quicker, and means you don't have endless cartons open in every fridge etc. Also by using different colour pourers you can distinguish easily between the different juices instead of hunting through a fridge.
+ Put more ice stations in.
+ If you did all the above you could also keep the spirit and mixer glasses at the front of the bar - that way you would never need to go to the back of the bar at all - cuts off a few seconds each time which all adds up on a friday night.
+ Employ someone to work back bar - at least on busy nights - monitoring what's about to run out and get replacements ready, its a far better idea than having barstaff running off halfway through serving people to get more vodka/whatever only to find out that all the other staff are doing the same. If it fairly quiet the back bar guy/girl could rotate glasses so the first glasses bar staff reached for were cold ones instead of ones just out of the washer.
+ Stop using branded glasses - staff hunting for the right glass takes longer, and I'd rather have my pint in an unbranded glass than in a warm stella one that's just come out the washer but is being used because it's the only one left.
+ Train the staff more - I'm not trying to attack the bar staff, they have a hectic job and get paid badly for doing it - but if they were trained more everything would run a lot more smoothly.
+ Move things around - the bars are quite small, you want as much of it open as possible, so move things away from the hatches that are never used.

I would have thought most of that was fairly common sense really, I worked in the union last year and then in another bar over the summer and was quite surprised how much more thought out everything was, and even that bar was quite badly managed, so god knows what a decent bar would be like.

Also, putting cordial in every speed rail instead of having one bottle on the bar would probably help

[groovy]

I have to say a that actually a lot of these are useful suggestions, but to be pedantic, there is no efficiency gain in soda guns however as with the current setup I can pour lemonade, diet coke AND coke all at the same time, and if somebody is pouring 4 pints of coke, I don't need to wait for the soda gun to be free just so I can get lemonade.

And also, we DO have cordial in every speed rail on the bar.


It is also worth remembering that serving customers quickly and correctly IS a priority for every manager of a bar as it reflects on himself the turnover of each night.


[hr]

Remember now, there's a big difference between kneeling down and BENDING OVER!

[somewhere only we know]

I think it would help to have the tills on the side of the bar nearer the customers; it would mean fewer trips back and forth, meaning the bill gets settled much quicker, meaning shorter queuing times.

Do the barstaff receive efficiency training when they start, or is it simply a case of how to pour a pint, how to work the till, change the barrels etc? While I appreciate just how difficult it is to work behind a bar on a busy night like a Friday (having done it myself), I often wonder whether the whole process could be speeded up by making a few changes to the bar layout, and making sure the staff make the best use of their time.

(please note this is not intended as a criticism - I'm just curious as to what the training procedure is).

[Abserdman]

Quoting groovy from 18:42, 16th Feb 2008
As a member of barstaff, I can confirm that the middle shutter in Venue1 is down because the locking mechanism is broken, and not for ANY other reason.

[hr]

Remember now, there's a big difference between kneeling down and BENDING OVER!

Is that right? Graeme told me it was cus of the wooden cordial holder being in the way.

[UanarchyK]

Quoting Somewhere Only We Know from 19:18, 16th Feb 2008

Do the barstaff receive efficiency training when they start, or is it simply a case of how to pour a pint, how to work the till, change the barrels etc? While I appreciate just how difficult it is to work behind a bar on a busy night like a Friday (having done it myself), I often wonder whether the whole process could be speeded up by making a few changes to the bar layout, and making sure the staff make the best use of their time.

I have it on good authority that they are not even taught how to pour a pint. And before someone attacks me saying that they have training, blah blah blah. This is from several friends who work at the bar that told me they received no training and were simply told to just simply "go". This helps explain why the new staff can't pour a pint of tennents with less than an inch of head and why every diesel I order is nearly half blackcurrant.

[Abserdman]

Yes, it is true that we are generally put on the bar and told to "Go" but, unless you start in fresher's week, you are first put on the bar on a quiet night, with experienced staff there to help you. Unfortunately if you start in Fresher's week this is impossible as there are no quiet nights.

And as for putting the tills on the other side of the bar not only is there no room, they'd get drinks spilt all over them, wrecking the electrics and soaking the money AND it would be far too easy for someone to lean over the bar and grab a handful of notes when no-one is paying attention. They wouldn't even need to know how to open the till as the dawer is generally left open.

I heard a god idea at work tonight: Every student who attends St Andrews should be made to do a Tuesday or Friday shift behind the bar. I know it's completely ridiculous and could never happen but it would give you an idea of what we do and how much work it actually is. All for minimum wage I might add.

[Bizarre Atheist]

Quoting UanarchyK from 21:37, 16th Feb 2008
This helps explain why the new staff can't pour a pint of tennents with less than an inch of head and why every diesel I order is nearly half blackcurrant.

May I suggest that you stop ordering Diesel and Tennents? There are some alcoholic beverages on sale in the Union that actually taste nice.

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