Pubic hair poll.

[Light the Rag]

We won't criticise your cellulite if you don't criticise our hairy backs or shoulders.

It's unlikely that you'll find a girl with a curvy bum, without having some cellulite.
It's unlikely that you'll find a guy with a hairy chest, without having a hairy back.

So we can't do anything about having either. So let's just let it lie.

[Super Jock]

Never shaved my scrote. I imagine it'll be ugly, hairy or not, and I think T-bagging sounds horrible, so I have no out of fairness reasons.

[Super Jock]

Never shaved my scrote. I imagine it'll be ugly, hairy or not, and I think T-bagging sounds horrible, so I have no out of fairness reasons.

[Super Jock]

Never shaved my scrote. I imagine it'll be ugly, hairy or not, and I think T-bagging sounds horrible, so I have no out of fairness reasons.

Oh should mention, the mention of scrote has seriously lowered the tone of an already low tone thread

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting Hennessy from 11:50, 13th Mar 2008
I wouldnt "go" for any man, goddammit! Why has vanity and effeminacy become so important to modern man anyway? What's wrong with being the simpler of the sexes in terms of personal grooming, and where does the pressure come from to become more like women in our grooming habits?

Most women are unhappy with their bodies, despite all of their "product" and rituals. Is that formerly female "does my bum look big in this?" neurosis now to become a part of the male psyche? I hope not.

And lonelypilgrim I'd love to come to Indiana and be a cowboy, I grew up working around horses, I don't like shaving, and baked beans and coffee sounds like an ideal breakfast.

"Modern man" - hmmmm... a total myth. Certainly the upper classes have had a high standard of cleanliness since the Roman era, insofar as they could indulge in it. Even us hoi polloi have become better groomed in recent decades, but I don't hear you complaining about showering or not having to pick lice out of your hair in the morning. And I'm just guessing that you regularly wear 'vanity' clothing, unsuited to the performance of manual labour.

Besides... you're making what I think is a false assumption. You're assuming that trimming and/or shaving down there is a typical female grooming act - as common as applying mascara or somesuch. I can't speak about European practice, but at least here in the US shaving is still somewhat taboo for women as it carries some undertones of paedophilia what with looking like a pre-pubescent girl and all.

I'm not trying to tell you to go trim up or anything. It's strictly a matter of personal preference, but I'm trying to understand how it's effeminate. If you don't want to do it, just don't do it... why the need to justify your preference with an appeal to manliness? I mean... wouldn't a real man just do what he wants and not feel the need to explain things to insignificant others?

Oh, and sorry if I misled you... you'd have trouble being a cowboy here in Indiana. You'd have to go further west for that, we haven't got the wide open plains for cattle ranching. But you could be a farmer, or a lumberjack down in the south of the state. There's a manly job - lumberjack. Baked beans for breakfast isn't the local custom either... but coffee is, along with bacon and ham and eggs and some sort of fried potato and a steak on Sundays.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

[Hennessy]

There's an upper limit to cleanliness that I would stick to, and when you start spending about equal amounts on soaps as you do on food you should stop. Showering once a day, shaving your face once a day, keeping your teeth brushed and deodorising arent essentials, but they are the basics of hygienic living. What we're seeing now isn't to do with cleanliness, more with personal appearance and vanity.

I absolutely know it isnt a standard for all females to shave down there, but I think you'll agree most at least trim. Far more attention seems to be given to the facial area and weight loss for women. Is that what it's coming to for men? Diets and health products? It's dishonest in a way. It used to be if you had a mate who was a fat git, you'd call him such and recieve a hearty "fuck off you lanky bastard" in return. When did it become so taboo for men to criticise each other's weight? We never used to care, and in that way male society was more inclusive.

It just seems to be symptomatic of a rising tide of effeminacy replacing masculinity (in some, not by any means, all men). That's more what I was speaking out against, not necessarily whether you shave your pubes or not, I couldnt care less as long as you don't announce it within earshot of me, because I don't particularly want to know!



[hr]

"What happened to Spoon?"
"There is no Spoon"
Dog Soldiers

[sweet]

One day Mr Me was sitting in the living room sewing a button back onto his shirt when my flatmate walked in. Looking up, he said jokingly "Oh, do you think I'm any less of a man now?" Her opinion was to the contrary, but I was reminded of the incident by the pubes thread. What is masculinity? And what makes a real man? I'll start:

1) A penis :p

edit: Oops this is only vaguely relevant. I don't think having a wee trim is um-masculine (quite the reverse). Obsessive hair-straightening and grooming could be I guess.

[ct3012]

Personally, I got creeped out when my boyfriend de-fuzzed his entire area. Trimming is good I think because it looks better and isn't un manly. It's when they shave their armpits you need to worry...

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting Hennessy from 19:56, 13th Mar 2008
It just seems to be symptomatic of a rising tide of effeminacy replacing masculinity (in some, not by any means, all men). That's more what I was speaking out against, not necessarily whether you shave your pubes or not, I couldnt care less as long as you don't announce it within earshot of me, because I don't particularly want to know!

Okay, I'll agree with this. But to me being 'manly' is more to do with attitude than with hygiene or health practices. I'd say the defining characteristic for 'manliness' over the last few centuries has been self-confidence and a can-do attitude and the idea of ... well, stoicism - the 'strong, silent type'.

A very good friend of mine who happens to be a woman, complains to me regularly about her peception that young people today are becoming increasingly androgenous. Feminimity is disappearing as fast as masculinity and everyone's slowly moving towards the middle, to her way of seeing things. I regularly see her point. People in general just don't seem to have the confidence to be who they are... everyone is trying, consciously or not, to conform to some stereotype. It makes me sad.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

[Hennessy]

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 23:54, 13th Mar 2008

Quoting Hennessy from 19:56, 13th Mar 2008
It just seems to be symptomatic of a rising tide of effeminacy replacing masculinity (in some, not by any means, all men). That's more what I was speaking out against, not necessarily whether you shave your pubes or not, I couldnt care less as long as you don't announce it within earshot of me, because I don't particularly want to know!

Okay, I'll agree with this. But to me being 'manly' is more to do with attitude than with hygiene or health practices. I'd say the defining characteristic for 'manliness' over the last few centuries has been self-confidence and a can-do attitude and the idea of ... well, stoicism - the 'strong, silent type'.

A very good friend of mine who happens to be a woman, complains to me regularly about her peception that young people today are becoming increasingly androgenous. Feminimity is disappearing as fast as masculinity and everyone's slowly moving towards the middle, to her way of seeing things. I regularly see her point. People in general just don't seem to have the confidence to be who they are... everyone is trying, consciously or not, to conform to some stereotype. It makes me sad.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

Yup, I think I agree with everything you just said there, in which case we have an accord. A can do attitude and stoicism in the face of danger are still expected of the masculine in Western culture, as long as that doesnt disappear I guess it doesnt matter if you shave your bollocks or not.

Interesting point about the androgenous nature of society. Perhaps she's on to something there, we're constantly being bombarded with this shmooze about equality when in actual real life situations sometimes there are dominant males and sometimes there are dominant females, it's just the way it works.

I don't think it's a new phenomenon to want to be something else though. I'm pretty sure every little boy in the "50s wanted to be John Wayne or Audie Murphy. As we get older it seems the need to continue working towards becoming these other people is still there, is it new? Perhaps we just have more time for self-improvement, more time to stop and consider ourselves in the mirror every morning, more free time to wind up in the gym or plan a diet, than our ancestors ever did.

EDIT: Sorry, atrocious spelling and grammar today.
[hr]

"What happened to Spoon?"
"There is no Spoon"
Dog Soldiers

[kernowdaydreamer]

I still think that there are gender types that society prescribes. Why is everything produced for little girls pink and fluffy? When I was kid I didn't know any girls who chose pink as their favourite colour. Admittedly I grew up with farmer's daughters, who never be bought the skimpy clothes available today for kids, since they'd be damn impractical. But the point is, they wouldn't have wanted them.

Of course, that was before puberty. Then everyone was obsessed with make-up and stuff. And seeming androgynous would probably have got me accused of being gay and therefore social disaster. Okay, this may be turning into just a rant.

But I can't see anything wrong with people being androgynous - as long we go for the best of both worlds. Pressure to look perfect is unfortunately a bad aspect of femininity. A more androgynous society should mean that interests and personality are not influenced by how you are channelled based on your sex - and what's wrong with that?

Quoting LonelyPilgrim from 23:54, 13th Mar 2008

Quoting Hennessy from 19:56, 13th Mar 2008
It just seems to be symptomatic of a rising tide of effeminacy replacing masculinity (in some, not by any means, all men). That's more what I was speaking out against, not necessarily whether you shave your pubes or not, I couldnt care less as long as you don't announce it within earshot of me, because I don't particularly want to know!

Okay, I'll agree with this. But to me being 'manly' is more to do with attitude than with hygiene or health practices. I'd say the defining characteristic for 'manliness' over the last few centuries has been self-confidence and a can-do attitude and the idea of ... well, stoicism - the 'strong, silent type'.

A very good friend of mine who happens to be a woman, complains to me regularly about her peception that young people today are becoming increasingly androgenous. Feminimity is disappearing as fast as masculinity and everyone's slowly moving towards the middle, to her way of seeing things. I regularly see her point. People in general just don't seem to have the confidence to be who they are... everyone is trying, consciously or not, to conform to some stereotype. It makes me sad.

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides

[LonelyPilgrim]

Quoting kernowdaydreamer from 21:22, 15th Mar 2008
I still think that there are gender types that society prescribes. Why is everything produced for little girls pink and fluffy? When I was kid I didn't know any girls who chose pink as their favourite colour. Admittedly I grew up with farmer's daughters, who never be bought the skimpy clothes available today for kids, since they'd be damn impractical. But the point is, they wouldn't have wanted them.

Of course, that was before puberty. Then everyone was obsessed with make-up and stuff. And seeming androgynous would probably have got me accused of being gay and therefore social disaster. Okay, this may be turning into just a rant.

But I can't see anything wrong with people being androgynous - as long we go for the best of both worlds. Pressure to look perfect is unfortunately a bad aspect of femininity. A more androgynous society should mean that interests and personality are not influenced by how you are channelled based on your sex - and what's wrong with that?

My friend was/is diagnosing a trend, not saying that we're already completely there. As for my opinion, I haven't really got one. I am who I am, and I don't care about androgeny, masculinity, feminimity, etc...

[hr]

Self-control is the chief element of self-respect; self-respect is the chief element of courage. - Thucydides