SNP banning of offsales booze for under 21's farce

[Duggeh]

Quoting eagle from 20:32, 19th Jun 2008
Awesome, we should bring back National Service.

Why was it phased out, anyway?

Because conscipts make for shit soldiers.

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IMAGE:www.thismanwillkillyou.com/avatars/tb3-100.jpg
Duggeh: Master Of Ceremonies

[Midget]

It must be good news for Threshers stores in Berwick-upon-Tweed. Someone should really open a store on the border "It's just a jump to the left, now I can sell to you, move your knees in time."

[munchingfoo]

Quoting Duggeh from 21:24, 19th Jun 2008

Quoting eagle from 20:32, 19th Jun 2008
Awesome, we should bring back National Service.

Why was it phased out, anyway?

Because conscipts make for shit soldiers.

[hr]

IMAGE:www.thismanwillkillyou.com/avatars/tb3-100.jpg
Duggeh: Master Of Ceremonies

Conscripts make excellent soldiers, they just make shit combatants. They're really good for cleaning toilets and standing guard at useless guard posts.

[hr]

“ When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading”

[Jono]

Quoting David Bean from 19:14, 18th Jun 2008
Absolutely - yet another disgraceful assault on individual liberty by a government no less despicable in its casual disregard for the freedom of a large section of the adult population than the one we have to put up with in Westminster.

Are you really going to take this? If I were in Scotland right now, and particularly still a student, I'd be demanding that the SRC take action. This is, after all, nothing more than age discrimination: if they employed the same policy in their hiring practices, they'd be sued out of the country.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

Yeah; "Booze 4 Students! Now!" I don't see it happening! Besides; the Association disapproves of binge drinking. The drinks debate has been painted completely in black and white. Ergo, we couldn't possibly defend that policy while simultaneously campaigning against further restrictions on Alcohol.

I'm actually more concerned about the new licensing laws from Westminster coming in next March. Offsales; gone by September 2009. It's a shame. The end of an era! Alas, I can't see people crossing the social barricades to fight for our rights to buy cheap vodka, and four-packs of Miller after 10 PM. there's not an enormous amount we can do about it.

[hr]

I disagree with you in principle.

[Tweedle-Dum]

Quoting jono from 22:03, 19th Jun 2008
Yeah; "Booze 4 Students! Now!" I don't see it happening! Besides; the Association disapproves of binge drinking. The drinks debate has been painted completely in black and white. Ergo, we couldn't possibly defend that policy while simultaneously campaigning against further restrictions on Alcohol.

OK, stop and think before speaking. Firstly the Students Association has nothing against alcohol consumption, as it operates both a bar and an off sales. Even if it disapproves of binge drinking there is no way to argue that binge drinking only happens with off sales and to those under 21, or even the majority of it without significant evidence.
The Union should be standing up for the rights of students rather than digging itself in to idealogical holes which incidentally can be changed by a single majority vote at SRC. Grow some balls.

[hr]

Tetragrammaton is a four letter word.

[Al]

New licensing laws from Westminster? When did licensing laws become a reserved matter?

[David Bean]

Starla/Jez: erm, first of all Eagle is right, I said nothing about the intentions of the person wishing to purchase the alcohol, whether it be to get wasted or to appreciate alcohol for its taste, but the point I was actually making is that this is irrelevant. Alcohol is a legal substance for adults to purchase and consume; I wasn't aware that in order to pursue some legal activity of whatever sort a person was required to confirm with the authorities that their motive for doing so was as the authorities would regard as acceptable, or that the way in which they choose to pursue it (in this case by purchasing the legal substance in a shop) is something it is acceptable to legislate about. I think when the state tries to exercise that degree of control over the lives of individuals, that is an infringement of those individuals' liberty that is unacceptable, and once we start to accept that degree of interference, we put into jeopardy many of the other liberties you've mentioned. For a purportedly educated person, your apathy when it comes to an issue of basic freedom, and a blatant attempt by the state to seize it from a large part of the population, is worrying.

Jono: on this one, my friend, Tweedle-Dum is absolutely spot on. The Students' Association is not, or at least has not for the entire duration of my involvement, been opposed to the consumption of alcohol. Of course it campaigns for responsible drinking, just as my employer and, indeed, the alcohol manufacture and retail industries do; it's in nobody's interests for people to be abusing alcohol, and all of the responsible operators in these industries accept that. But if you really think defending the freedom to purchase alcohol from an off-licensed establishment to drink in your own home is the same thing as promoting binge drinking, I'd have to question how many absinthes you've personally imbibed before posting. This is a simple issue of freedom of action: on this issue we, or rather those of us who live in Scotland and are aged 18-20, have it, and the SNP Scottish Executive wants to take it away. Quite apart from the fundamental issue of liberty that's at stake here, given the number of people in that particular category at St Andrews, it's entirely proper and right that the SRC should stand up and take action.

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Psalm 91:7

[Andrew Mackenzie]

Quoting Al from 23:11, 19th Jun 2008
New licensing laws from Westminster? When did licensing laws become a reserved matter?

I presume Jonathan is talking about the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, which comes into effect from 1 September 2009. It's a law passed by the Scottish parliament as, you're right, licensing law is devolved. Westminster has nothing to do with it.

The act introduces restrictions on promotions, but I don't see why it would mean the end of off-sales at the Union??

On the matter of the SNP's proposals, I don't see the problem with the Student's Association coming out opposed to them. Basically the SNP are saying if you're between 18-21 you can't be trusted to purchase alcohol from off-sales and drink it responsibly. I think it is perfectly right and proper for the Students' Association to take a stand and say we don't agree. This is a consultation document and the SNP and inviting comments - so lets give them some.

This is the same government who are exploring lowering the voting age to 16. I quote Bruce Crawfod, Minister for Parliament:

"The Scottish Government agrees that the lack of consistency with other legal rights on entering adulthood such as paying taxes, getting married or serving in the armed forces, leads young people to believe that their views are not valid or important. By denying young people the vote, they become disengaged from the political process at the very point society expects them to engage with their emerging adult status and all the social rights, responsibilities and conditions that society imposes on them."

So...on the one hand the SNP are perfectly happy for those as young as 16 to have a say in electing the government of the country, but god forbid they try to get a bottle of wine from Tesco. Muddled, anyone?

[Andrew Mackenzie]

Quoting David Bean from 00:26, 20th Jun 2008
But if you really think defending the freedom to purchase alcohol from an off-licensed establishment to drink in your own home is the same thing as promoting binge drinking, I'd have to question how many absinthes you've personally imbibed before posting. This is a simple issue of freedom of action: on this issue we, or rather those of us who live in Scotland and are aged 18-20, have it, and the SNP Scottish Executive wants to take it away. Quite apart from the fundamental issue of liberty that's at stake here, given the number of people in that particular category at St Andrews, it's entirely proper and right that the SRC should stand up and take action.

[hr]

Psalm 91:7

Spot on, I agree entirely.

[Andrew Mackenzie]

Quoting Andrew Mackenzie from 00:31, 20th Jun 2008

Quoting Al from 23:11, 19th Jun 2008
New licensing laws from Westminster? When did licensing laws become a reserved matter?

I presume Jonathan is talking about the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, which comes into effect from 1 September 2009. It's a law passed by the Scottish parliament as, you're right, licensing law is devolved. Westminster has nothing to do with it.

The act introduces restrictions on promotions, but I don't see why it would mean the end of off-sales at the Union??

On the matter of the SNP's proposals, I don't see the problem with the Student's Association coming out opposed to them. Basically the SNP are saying if you're between 18-21 you can't be trusted to purchase alcohol from off-sales and drink it responsibly. I think it is perfectly right and proper for the Students' Association to take a stand and say we don't agree. This is a consultation document and the SNP and inviting comments - so lets give them some.

This is the same government who are exploring lowering the voting age to 16. I quote Bruce Crawfod, Minister for Parliament:

"The Scottish Government agrees that the lack of consistency with other legal rights on entering adulthood such as paying taxes, getting married or serving in the armed forces, leads young people to believe that their views are not valid or important. By denying young people the vote, they become disengaged from the political process at the very point society expects them to engage with their emerging adult status and all the social rights, responsibilities and conditions that society imposes on them."

So...on the one hand the SNP are perfectly happy for those as young as 16 to have a say in electing the government of the country, but god forbid they try to get a bottle of wine from Tesco. Muddled, anyone?

[exnihilo]

So, they'll give the vote to 16 year olds, but ban 18-21 year olds from drinking? Joined up thinking at its best.

And these are the muppets who, because we all hate Labour, will be ruling us from here on in. Makes you proud.

[exnihilo]

Quoting Duggeh from 21:24, 19th Jun 2008

Quoting eagle from 20:32, 19th Jun 2008
Awesome, we should bring back National Service.

Why was it phased out, anyway?

Because conscipts make for shit soldiers.

So true. We'd have thrashed the Hun if we'd only had a small professional army... Oh, wait, bollocks we would.

[Jono]

Quoting Andrew Mackenzie from 00:31, 20th Jun 2008

Quoting Al from 23:11, 19th Jun 2008
New licensing laws from Westminster? When did licensing laws become a reserved matter?

I presume Jonathan is talking about the Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005, which comes into effect from 1 September 2009. It's a law passed by the Scottish parliament as, you're right, licensing law is devolved. Westminster has nothing to do with it.

The act introduces restrictions on promotions, but I don't see why it would mean the end of off-sales at the Union??

It won't directly ban offsales in the Union. however, the act also ends the distinction between private members club and other licenses (Or so I am told). Offsales could remain open, but could only trade until 10pm. Seeing as most of its business is done after the other, cheaper places have closed it won't be profitable to keep it open after next academic year. That's why it's closing in September 2009.

Tweedle-Dum; I am not digging myself an ideological hole! I oppose this ridiculous proposal as much as anyone. Having worked in a bar with one of the strictest ID policies in St Andrews I can tell you that I hate the current climate of fear and scaremongering that surrounds under-age drinking. You're expected to serve over-eighteens who you know are out for the express purpose of getting lashed (I'm aware of the hypocrisy). But god forbid you serve a seventeen year old out for a quiet drink with their parents!

Anyway; that's a bit tangential. If the SRC is up for opposing it then great. I'm just saying that there are considerations as an institution before we go down that road. I'm correct in thinking that our late license is exceptional to the policy of all Fife? I'm also correct in thinking that this is partially justified by our expressed distain for any sort of binge drinking? Considering the hostility to students in certain quarters, a campaign of opposition to legislation ostensibly designed to curb binge drinking could be used against us by people (not I) who see these things in black and white!

It's official; I've been spending far too much time speaking to Bruce Turner.


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I disagree with you in principle.

[Starla]

I'm sorry David but I absolutly, totally and utterly fail to see how the consumption of alcohol is a basic right. It's not. Sure it tastes nice and leads to some fun times. But it. Is not. A right. You don't need it to live a comfortable, healthy and enjoyable life, in fact some would say it's detrimental to one. Not me though, I love it.

You really need to be less literal as well, I never said booze=wasted. But the fact is that's why people drink it. To relax and chill via increased intoxication. Yeah yeah yeah some people enjoy the taste, and yes it's nice, but the entire point of alcohol is it gets you drunk. Otherwise all us "higher types" who just love the taste would just drink non-alcoholic brands, right?

And really, attacking someone's education because they disagree with you is just tacky, as is trying to "pump up" a relatively minor issue in to some crusade to make yourself feel better.

Jez

(As a side not does any one else find that this childish "fuck the man" "argh the government is evil" schtick really sad on someone who isn't 15?)

[hr]

"We all live in our Fantasy and only endure our Reality..." - R.A.Wilson

[Thackary]

Starla, I think you're missing the point a little.

You didn't specifically say that booze=wasted, but you did state the the main reason people drink is to get wasted. From my experience, this is far from the truth.
Most of the people I know will have a drink because they enjoy the taste and refreshment it offers. A lot of the flavour comes from the sharpness of the alcohol, and the fact that as soon as the alcohol hits your tongue, it warms up and the evaporation brings more of the aromatics to your olfactory senses. Alcohol-free versions just don't taste the same.

Sure, I agree that the concept of "fuck the man" "argh the government is evil" does wear a bit thin if it's spouted just for the sake of it, but I think in this case, Bean has a point.

Getting wasted is neither a right nor a privilege.

Being able to choose for oneself is a right, surely?

The government has agreed that by 18, a person is old enough to decide who they should elect; they're old enough to marry, to drive, to buy a house and use a credit card. They can go skydiving without a parent's consent, and they could even buy a house and have a mortgage.
Hell, they've been allowed to join the army, and could have served a year in Iraq by the time their 18th birthday rolls by.

Do you HONESTLY think it's right that these people should be denied the opportunity to buy a bottle of wine to drink with dinner?

What about a bottle of Cuban rum, to serve to their guests at a party, mixed as mojitos and handed out on the verandah of their new house, by their husband or wife, the night before they jet off to the middle east to serve in the forces?


Being considered old enough to purchase alcohol in a bar should extend to being able to purchase alcohol for private consumption (ie from an off licence).


If the problem is with underage drinkers, then target THAT problem.
If the problem is with people drinking too much in pubs and clubs, then target THAT problem.

I don't believe that the problem is with 18-21 year olds buying alcohol from off licences, and I don't believe that you do either.



(anyway, the entire point of alcohol is not that it gets you drunk, but that it preserves the fruit that is used to make it, and that it tastes really good

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Donate: http://www.justgiving.com/thedaleswalk (please mention 'Oli' in the comments when donating)
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[Fawksie]

Quoting Jono from 09:44, 20th Jun 2008
It won't directly ban offsales in the Union. however, the act also ends the distinction between private members club and other licenses (Or so I am told). Offsales could remain open, but could only trade until 10pm.

The Licensing (Scotland) Act 2005 specifies a number of conditions which are not to apply to clubs as defined under the Licensing (Clubs) (Scotland) Regulations 2007, of which the Students' Association (or is it Students' Union in this case?) is one.

However, the sale of alcohol for consumption off-premises is not one of these conditions, and is instead covered by the main body of the Act, which prohibits it before 10am or after 10pm.

[Andrew Mackenzie]

Quoting Jono from 09:44, 20th Jun 2008
I'm just saying that there are considerations as an institution before we go down that road. I'm correct in thinking that our late license is exceptional to the policy of all Fife? I'm also correct in thinking that this is partially justified by our expressed distain for any sort of binge drinking? Considering the hostility to students in certain quarters, a campaign of opposition to legislation ostensibly designed to curb binge drinking could be used against us by people (not I) who see these things in black and white!

I disagree, I think most people are able to distinguish between the issue of banning 18-21 year olds purchasing alcohol from off-sales and binge drinking - the two don’t necessarily follow. One of the document’s arguments in favour of the minimum purchase age in off-sales rising to 21 but remaining 18 in pubs/clubs is that these venues offer a more moderated environment and the presence of older drinkers might be a good influence. I don’t know about you, but I take exception to a proposal that suggests I effectively need adult supervision to consume alcohol.

There is a drink problem in this country; I don’t think anyone would deny that. There is no easy solution, but simply banning under 21’s from purchasing off-sales alcohol will alienate young people from government. This can only be counterproductive, and young people simply won’t listen to any future educational messages the government may try to send out.

It’s also worth pointing out that raising the minimum purchase age in off-sales is only one of a series of proposals. Amongst other things, they are also suggesting introducing a minimum purchase price based on strength (ie minimum price per unit of alcohol) and ‘alcohol only’ checkouts at supermarkets (much the same way as tobacco must be bought separately).

For all that can be said about the proposals, I think the SNP do deserve some recognition – for a government that has been focused on short term, populist policies (scrapping bridge tolls and the graduate endowment, for example) it’s good to see them looking at more long term, difficult issues. I like it when government’s put forward brave ideas for discussion; the measure of the government will be whether or not they listen to the feedback from the consultation document. It’s also good to see that, despite its flaws, they really have studied the evidence and come up with a quite comprehensive strategy that tries to tackle the nation’s drinking problem on several fronts. I think their proposals are flawed and fall short in several areas, but I do applaud them for at least trying to think outside the box and I welcome any measure that brings new ideas to the table.

However, I do take specific issue with the inclusion of a proposal to raise the purchase age to 21, since (as I have said previously) it goes in completely the opposition direction to previous statements about young people taking more responsibility.

[Gubbins]

I'd be interested to know what basis the SNP had for coming up with this proposal. Presumably it is to curb binge drinking and alcohol-related violence and health issues, primarily among lower socio-economic groups (i.e. sobering up alcoholic neds). However, even a brief comparison between drinking ages and "alcoholic ned-ism" in other First World countries doesn't give any indication that a change in the drinking age in its own (up or down) will make any significant change to the problem.

I guess the SNP have their hearts in the right place, but they are dealing with the effects of the problem, not its cause, and in doing so infringing on the civil liberties of the populus.

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...then again, that is only my opinion.

[Hennessy]

Seeing people debate an issue passionately on the sinner really only adds to the theory that life is pointless.



[hr]

"What happened to Spoon?"
"There is no Spoon"
Dog Soldiers

[Gubbins]

It's the Sinner, what do you expect?
...
Do we have an official catchphrase, other than the stick thing?

[hr]

...then again, that is only my opinion.