Gaza Situation: Opinions

[exnihilo]

That gets bandied about quite a lot, but the way Nazi Germany treated Jews and the way Israel treats Palestinians is not the same thing at all and the one is not the cause, directly or indirectly, of the other. This is an unique set of circumstances, and it does not admit of such a facile explanation as that.

[LonelyPilgrim]

In what way(s) is it not the same? I happen to agree that it is not, but just stating the fact and not supporting it doesn't exactly advance the argument.

[Jew]

There aren't huge death camps in Israel where Palestinians are routinely murdered and/or enslaved. Yes Palestinians are killed, but not in the same deliberate way. Also, the Jews living in Germany up to and during the Holocaust were not known for throwing stones at German soldiers, blowing up cafes in the Christian quarters, or launching rockets into predominantly Christian cities. They were entirely innocent, and their murders were completely unprovoked. I'm not saying Palestinian civilians deserve to be killed, but the situation with them is entirely different, as there is an actual conflict going on instead of a case where one side decides out of nowhere to completely exterminate a defenseless minority (as with Hitler and the Jews in WWII). So yes, Israel (in my opinion) is not without fault, but comparing it to Nazi Germany is ridiculous.

It really is disgusting, as someone else has noted, how Hamas deliberately provokes attacks from Israel for publicity. One can't help but wonder what Israel would have been like today had there been no violent Palestinian liberation movement as there had been. Maybe the situation would have been settled already to some extent, or would be in the process of settlement in a somewhat similar manner as the Civil Rights movement in America and the anti-Apartheid movement in South Africa have been and continue to be settled. (Obviously neither one of these was entirely peaceful, but Israel/Palestine is a whole other league of violence). Obviously Israel should take into account the fact that in defending themselves they look like a big bully, and reassess how they deal with attacks (since the way they've gone about it so far obviously doesn't work). That said, I'm pretty sure the countries most of us St Andrews students hail from would respond exactly the same way. I mean, the US and UK did recently invade two countries in response to one terrorist attack, so technically we've reacted more strongly than Israel is reacting right now.


Sorry for the ramblings. I'm tired. And don't have a clear cut opinion on the Israel-Palestine situation except that it's a real shame.

[Anon.]

Israel (as a modern state) owes its existence to the sympathies evoked following Hitler's attempts to expunge Jews from the face of the Earth.

Doesn't the idea of a modern Jewish homeland owe its implementation to the Balfour Declaration and the establishment of the British Mandate of Palestine - both of which predate Hitler's time in power?

[RedCelt69]

There aren't huge death camps in Israel where Palestinians are routinely murdered and/or enslaved. Yes Palestinians are killed, but not in the same deliberate way. Also, the Jews living in Germany up to and during the Holocaust were not known for throwing stones at German soldiers, blowing up cafes in the Christian quarters, or launching rockets into predominantly Christian cities. They were entirely innocent, and their murders were completely unprovoked. I'm not saying Palestinian civilians deserve to be killed, but the situation with them is entirely different, as there is an actual conflict going on instead of a case where one side decides out of nowhere to completely exterminate a defenseless minority (as with Hitler and the Jews in WWII). So yes, Israel (in my opinion) is not without fault, but comparing it to Nazi Germany is ridiculous.

That isn't what I said.

Israel (as a modern state) owes its existence to the sympathies evoked following Hitler's attempts to expunge Jews from the face of the Earth. The subsequent "never again!" attitude of a significant proportion of the Israelis is what has led to them treating the Palestinians as sub-human as the Nazis once treated the Jews.

The Nazis viewed the Jews as sub-human. It is a commonly-occurring theme amongst hardline Israelis that the Palestinians are sub-human. A few years ago, 2 government ministers were happy to go on the record saying that the Palestinians were no better than animals which deserved to be put down.

The comparison was of the attitude of one set of people of the other... not the methods by which those attitudes were expressed.

[LonelyPilgrim]

The de-humanisation of an opponent in a protracted conflict is quite normal. No special heinousness on the part of Israelis there (or, for that matter, on the part of the Palestinians, numbers of whom regularly express much the same sentiment). The difference with the Nazis, or anti-semitism throughout history in general, has been the absence of real conflict. As previously mentioned, there was no Jewish 'Intifada' in Germany during the '30s.

As for the current situation: It's hopeless. Peace absolutely requires Israeli security as a pre-requisite, but the steps that Israel would have to take in order to finally create security for themselves would make them a pariah, at best. The alternative is the status quo: Israel constantly under siege by radical forces which provoke Israel and then use the disproportion of the response to increase their recruitment (and justify the funding they receive from third-parties, ie. Iran and Saudi Arabia, etc). In the meantime, the bulk of the Palestinian population relies upon Hamas for their medical and social needs, such as education, where they are constantly propogandised with 'textbooks' like 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. As a consequence, so many people regard Jews and Israel as so inherently evil that they can't accurately appreciate that the majority of their troubles are a consequence of Hamas' actions eliciting a predictable and desired security response.

The whole damn mess is utterly depressing.

[Anon.]

So yes, Israel (in my opinion) is not without fault, but comparing it to Nazi Germany is ridiculous.

I agree that comparing Israeli treatment of Palestinians with Nazi treatment of Jews is ridiculous, but there are other similarities that could be pointed out between the State of Israel and the Third Reich, e.g.:

Their foundation as an attempt at the restoration of a downtrodden people.
Their establishment through campaigns of intimidation and violence, including political assassinations.
The assertion of the moral/historical right of a particular race to a particular territory.
Their preferential treatment of a particular race within their territory.
The expansion of their territorial area by the invasion and annexation of sovereign neighbours' territory, regardless of the then inhabitants' wishes.
Their ruthless response towards resistance offered to their occupation of these conquered territories by the inhabitants.

[Gubbins]

Their foundation as an attempt at the restoration of a downtrodden people.
Their establishment through campaigns of intimidation and violence, including political assassinations.
The assertion of the moral/historical right of a particular race to a particular territory.
Their preferential treatment of a particular race within their territory.
The expansion of their territorial area by the invasion and annexation of sovereign neighbours' territory, regardless of the then inhabitants' wishes.
Their ruthless response towards resistance offered to their occupation of these conquered territories by the inhabitants.

Couldn't the same be said of half the wars in history?

[Cain]

We use a simulation with the 2nd year classes for the terrorism topic called "September 12*." Without giving too much away, you don't win this game. It was designed to show the effect of the US response in Afghanistan, but I think it's even more apt to show how well Israel are doing with their current 20 mile rocket campaign against Hamas.

I'm not sure what the solution is in real life is, but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't involve launching rockets backwards and forwards between Gaza and Israel.

*http://www.newsgaming.com/games/index12.htm

[Zanbato]

I really don't understand the situation fully, but all I know is that if one country fires rockets into another, they deserve a response in kind.

On the subject of "do-good'ers" I feel that they fail to think of how they would react in a similar situation. If I fired rockets into their family, town,city, whatever, would they hold back and try to resort to non violent methods? What if that had already been tried, and I kept firing rockets at them? Would they be so quick to back away and keep trying? I think it is immensley selfish to condemn one countrie's response to an attack just because it involves violence.

I dont care what anyone says, there is a time and place for talk, and another entirely seperate time to use force, usually after talking doesnt work. Its all very well arguing over when to use force, but who decides the "sit and wait to be rocketed at" time neccessary before its ok to wade in and retaliate? If I were being fired at, 10 seconds without fighting back would be too long for all I cared...

[Senethro]

So how much force then?

[RedCelt69]

I really don't understand the situation fully

Clearly.

[Zanbato]

So how much force then?

That was my point. Its so easy to sit and criticise the actions of another when you arent in that situation. No one knows how much is the minimum level of force to use - it's either enough to stop further attacks, or it isnt.

It's then very easy to suggest that too much force was used - and it depends who's side you listen to. I hate to compare this sort of thing to WW2, but its a similar (albeit on a smaller scale) arguement to the whole Hiroshima issue. Technically, it was an insanely high cost to civillian lives, and it was horrendous. But it also ended a war where many millions could have died in a long protracted fight, against and enemy that would rather die than surrender. It was enough force to end the war, against a desperate and dangerous enemy. Too much? or enough?

And Redcelt, do you care to elaborate? All this reaching for the moral high gorund gets on my nerves - they are at war. Until one side relents, it will continue as it has. We have business trying to decide which is the "good" side - as far as THIS current situation goes (by which I mean ceasefire onwards), Israel has every right to respond. There was a ceasefire, which they upheld. Palestine did not. You break the rules with force, then you expect a forceful reply. 600 rocket attacks in one week? Thats enough for any country to want to respond with force.

It's rediculous - if I started a fight bypunching someone, then I have no one to blame but myself if I get punched back. I think thats something people seem to be forgetting, oh poor victim Palestine - the Instigator in this current run of events.

Thats the trouble - no one seems allowed to take swift decesive action and everything seems to end up as a long protracted guerrilla war, where undoubtably more suffering occurs over many generations of people because it lasts so long. Even now, is the end in sight? Might it not be better to simply allow one side to actually win, decisively?

[RedCelt69]

And Redcelt, do you care to elaborate?

Not overly. You've admitted and demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the subject. It isn't my duty to educate you. There are resources out there from which you can enlighten yourself to both sides of the protracted conflict.

Step 1 would be to find a map of the region... one that shows all of the illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.
Step 2 would be to read up on what life is like for the average Palestinian under Israeli occupation.

I used to see news reports of young Palestinians throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers and I would roll my eyes and think... what is it with these people? Why can't they just live in peace? Wanting to understand the animosity held towards the Israelis, I took a step outside of my Western bubble and educated myself as to the background of the situation.

I read about the Israeli position and I read about the Palestinian position (ie, I didn't just immerse myself in the propaganda of 1 side over the other). Afterwards, I understood why youths throw rocks... petrol bombs, fired rockets and strapped explosives to their bodies. Understanding isn't the same as condoning, btw.

It's rediculous - if I started a fight bypunching someone, then I have no one to blame but myself if I get punched back.

Flawed analogy. If you were subjected to a lifetime of oppression; an oppression experienced by your parents - and an oppression destined to be the heritage of your children and their children's children... and one day you were pushed beyond the edge of endurance and punched one of your oppressors in the face... would you expect to be punched back, along with anyone standing close to you? Then punched again. Then beaten up as you watched those around you get beaten up?

Would that seem reasonable to you?

Might it not be better to simply allow one side to actually win, decisively?

At this point, I wish I could disavow the fact that I share the same gene pool as you.

[Zanbato]

And Redcelt, do you care to elaborate?

Not overly. You've admitted and demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the subject. It isn't my duty to educate you. There are resources out there from which you can enlighten yourself to both sides of the protracted conflict.

Step 1 would be to find a map of the region... one that shows all of the illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.
Step 2 would be to read up on what life is like for the average Palestinian under Israeli occupation.

Have you read up on what it's like to be an Israeli citizen under constant rocket fire?

I used to see news reports of young Palestinians throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers and I would roll my eyes and think... what is it with these people? Why can't they just live in peace? Wanting to understand the animosity held towards the Israelis, I took a step outside of my Western bubble and educated myself as to the background of the situation.

I read about the Israeli position and I read about the Palestinian position (ie, I didn't just immerse myself in the propaganda of 1 side over the other). Afterwards, I understood why youths throw rocks... petrol bombs, fired rockets and strapped explosives to their bodies. Understanding isn't the same as condoning, btw.

It's rediculous - if I started a fight bypunching someone, then I have no one to blame but myself if I get punched back.

Flawed analogy. If you were subjected to a lifetime of oppression; an oppression experienced by your parents - and an oppression destined to be the heritage of your children and their children's children... and one day you were pushed beyond the edge of endurance and punched one of your oppressors in the face... would you expect to be punched back, along with anyone standing close to you? Then punched again. Then beaten up as you watched those around you get beaten up?

Would that seem reasonable to you?

NO, it would be expected however.

The difference here however is that one side is firing rockets into civillians, and the miliatry of the other side is fighting back. I fail to see how your analogy captures the essense that ok, the Israelis might be heavy handed, but at the same time, Iraeli civillians are also being injured.

Your analogy doesnt capture that. A better one would be if I started a fight after provocation, with my captors already pissed off because some other of my country men had killed some of THEIR families, friends or the like. Yeah, it's not fair, but it's understandable too. It's hardly a new phenomenon.

Might it not be better to simply allow one side to actually win, decisively?

At this point, I wish I could disavow the fact that I share the same gene pool as you.

Yes, how high and mighty of you. Same gene pool etc etc. I love how you try to sound so authoritative on the subject, as if there is only one correct veiwpoint. I didnt personally insult you or imply superiority because your veiw differed from mine. However, reading this, youre quite obviously and arrogant fool who thinks that a bunch of meaningless student veiws on an internet forum will somehow aid your beloved palestinians and convert others to your insanely one sided veiw of the situation.

Rather than taking my posts out of context, take the gist of what i'm saying. It's almost fashionable to dislike Israel at the moment, and it's hard to cut through the bullshit that both sides are flinging. If you go far back enough, i'm sure you'll find both sides have equally 'great' reasons for fighting each other, and that both sides will undoubtably see the land involved as theirs.

You're post simply reads that you disagree with me, and thats it. I don't think I could sway your opinion as its already narrowly set on its own personal agenda. I'm simply saying that one side has to 'win', otherwise this will never end. It will always be tit for tat, always be these stupid little skirmishes with one side "oh, well, they did this a few years back, and this is revenge" and the other simply fighting back. If it goes on for long enough, they will forget the original reason why they are fighting in the first place.

[RedCelt69]

Don't take the lack of a point-by-point shredding of everything you just wrote as some kind of admission that you managed to make any valid point whatsoever. Because you didn't. Why are you continuing to attempt a debate on a subject you know little-to-nothing about? Are you a masochist... or just thick-headed enough to believe that your opinion matters, regardless of how ill-informed it is?

You made it clear that your preferred solution would be for the world to look the other way whilst Israel ethnically-cleansed Palestine of the Palestinians. Or vice versa. Has it occurred to you that the very reason Hamas have attacked Israel is that the world does not forget that yes, they are still there and yes, they are still suffering?

Educate yourself, then perhaps I'll engage in a proper debate about the rights and wrongs of both sides.

A wise man once said: "Knowledge should be shared. Ignorance should be kept to oneself."

[Zanbato]

You made it clear that your preferred solution would be for the world to look the other way whilst Israel ethnically-cleansed Palestine of the Palestinians. Or vice versa. Has it occurred to you that the very reason Hamas have attacked Israel is that the world does not forget that yes, they are still there and yes, they are still suffering?

I'll ask again. If you were Israeli, would you tolerate rocket attacks on your home country? In 2006, there were 1700+ rocket launches into Israel. Is that somehow ok?

You've yet to answer, and I'd love to see what solution you would have. My entire first post was essentially asking how people would react if it were them facing the brunt of such attacks.

I'll ignore yet more mindless insult slinging - answer the question.

It's so easy to criticise others, yet you offer no solutions. You also fail to explain why it is so horrendous if palestinians are killed, yet you seem to have very little concern for the many Israeli civillians killed in the numerous rocket attacks? Is no one to have sympathey for them? Even if they might disagree with the governments actions, it is them paying the price of the palestinian rockets.

[RedCelt69]

I'll ask again. If you were Israeli, would you tolerate rocket attacks on your home country?

If I were an Israeli, I'd be campaigning for my government to cease its policy with regards the treatment of Palestinians. Such Israelis do exist. My disdain isn't for the Israeli people. It is for the policies of the Israeli government (and those Israelis who support such policies).

In 2006, there were 1700+ rocket launches into Israel. Is that somehow ok?

With a casualty rate of what? They're unguided Fire 'n' Pray rockets... little more than glorified fireworks. Their intention is (presumably) more for their psychological effect than their physical effect. Compare Israeli deaths with Palestinian deaths (for any given period).

You've yet to answer, and I'd love to see what solution you would have.

Uhm. Read this thread from the start. I believe my very first post gave the only "solution" that is viable.

I'll ignore yet more mindless insult slinging - answer the question.

It is hardly mindless, is it? And if you're wondering why my attitude to you is somewhat... ascerbic... I direct you to the line where you said:-

Might it not be better to simply allow one side to actually win, decisively?

If you can't understand why that attitude deserves my ire, you wouldn't understand the explanation.

Have you followed my advice and done (just a little) research yet?

[Anon.]

A wise man once said: "Knowledge should be shared. Ignorance should be kept to oneself."

Who was that?

[munchingfoo]

I'll ignore yet more mindless insult slinging - answer the question.

It is hardly mindless, is it? And if you're wondering why my attitude to you is somewhat... ascerbic... I direct you to the line where you said:-

Might it not be better to simply allow one side to actually win, decisively?

If you can't understand why that attitude deserves my ire, you wouldn't understand the explanation.

To be fair to Zanbato, you started insulting him before he used that line. If we ignore the opinions of the two of you related to this argument (since, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and to ask their own questions), then you, RedCelt, come across as the worst of the two parties in my eyes. You have opened every reply with an Ad Hominem attack and the tone of your posts has been one of anger.