Prince Harry a racist?

[RedCelt69]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7823404.stm

I don't get it, I really don't. How is calling someone from Pakistan a "Paki" any more racist than calling someone from Scotland a "Scot"?

I've known racists refer to anyone of brown skin as a "Paki"... which, is ignorant, granted... but if the person in question is from Pakistan...

[crystalclear]

Someone from pakistan is called a pakistani. not a paki which is a racist slur.

[RedCelt69]

Why is it a racist slur? Who decided that those missing 5 letters makes the world of difference between an accurate designation and an unforgivable slur? Was there a vote? Was it decided by a commitee?

The world is going to Hell in a handbasket... and those at the steering wheel are utterly insane.

Okay, so handbaskets don't have steering wheels, but even so...

[munchingfoo]

Someone from Scotland is called a Scotsman, this is shortened to Scot. Ball's in your court crystalclear.

[Animal]

How is it different from calling a British person a Brit? (technically, they're Britons, but I for one am not offended by the abbreviation).

Has anyone contacted the pakistani soldier to see whether or not he's offended?

[Lid]

I personally think it depends on sentiment far more than it does the word. The whole 'nigger' argument is the best way to illustrate this.

To put it in perspective, these guys are in the army. If someone signs up to be shot at, being called a name should rank pretty low down in the offensiveness stakes.

[Guest]

It's pretty simple. The word has racist connotations. Almost every time it's used it is intended to insult or offend someone on the basis of their skin colour. Therefore, it's best not to use it, unless we want to offend someone because we don't like their skin colour.

[What?]

How is it different from calling a British person a Brit? (technically, they're Britons, but I for one am not offended by the abbreviation).

Has anyone contacted the pakistani soldier to see whether or not he's offended?

They asked his uncle. Who potentially made a wee fortune selling the story to the News of the World.

*turns off cynicism*

[Hennessy]

Surely the "racist connotations" are only intended when the word is used as an insult. In this case perhaps it was just friendly banter. The intentions behind using a word can turn it from an insult to a friendly jab, and I don't think Harry is a racist.

[RedCelt69]

It's pretty simple. The word has racist connotations. Almost every time it's used it is intended to insult or offend someone on the basis of their skin colour. Therefore, it's best not to use it, unless we want to offend someone because we don't like their skin colour.

Why does it have racist connotations? Because racists use it? Racists (in this country) are also fond of waving the Union Flag. Does that have racist connotations also? Ignorance should be fought with an enlightened mind, not more ignorance. If I was from Pakistan, I'd be proud to be called a Paki... or at least, no more nor less affronted than being called a Pakistani.

I'm happy to be called a Scot. Marginally less happy to be called a Jock... which is a long, long way from being offended to the point of requiring an apology. It is the intent behind the word that matters, not the word itself. If someone were to say "Fuck off, ya Jock bastard" with malice in their heart, I might take umbrage. If they were to say "get the next round in, ya sleekit Jock bastart" I'd be amused... possibly to the point of cracking a wee smile on the way to the bar.

An acquiantance once called me a "sweaty". Those endearingly (if unimaginative) witty Cockneys with their rhyming slang (Sweaty Sock = Jock). Was I offended? Well, I didn't contact the newspapers demanding an apology.

As for the word Paki, I'd also question you when you say "Almost every time it's used". Based on what evidence?

[munchingfoo]

Almost every time it's used it is intended to insult or offend someone on the basis of their skin colour.

Can you link me to the research that shows this? I'd like to rip it to pieces, although I suspect it doesn't exist. Where I grew up (three separate towns) "paki shops" were places where people from pakistan sold newspapers, sweets and cigarettes. Chinky's were places where one would go to buy a chinese take-away. Whilst I'd agree that there were perhaps some people who used these terms as an insult, I didn't witness a single incident of it in all my years.

I have a friend from glasgow who says that it is now the in thing there for pakistanis to call each other pakis.

[What?]

I have a friend from glasgow who says that it is now the in thing there for pakistanis to call each other pakis.

I'm from Glasgow and I can verify the above statement. Indeed one can trawl their Bebos (for they don't know how to work facebook...it doesn't allow them skins which proclaim a 'Jihad' upon the 'Infidels' at age 15 (I really, really wish I was kidding)) and find claims of 'Paki and proud'.

[Guest]

No Harry is not a racist. I think that this has been a case of taking something entirely out of the context it was used (i.e. a bit of tounge and cheek friendly banter between comrades)and twisted to whip up a media frenzy and create profit for the person who leaked the tape in the first place. I feel that the media have frankly made a mountain out of the mole hill from this situation and have as a result made a mockary out of the very real and serious problem of racial abuse, which should not be tolerated nor has any place in society. Political correctness like helath and safety has a purpose in society to protect, but when it is applied in its most literaly form, all it serves to do is create a farsical situation that detracts from the orgional purpose it was intended for and ultimately causes people to switch off from geunine cases of abuse. A case in point of taking things too far was the media frenzy cuased by Cherie Blare knocking a boy over the head with her hand in a playful manner, as he has said something cheeky during a conference. The act itself was entirely harmless, but some little squirt from child protection authorities swooped down upon it and kicked up a stink about Cherie being a child abuser. The claim was totally outrageous and made a laughing stock out of children who suffer terrible abuse at the hands of their abusers.
It is all to easy to get carried away on a crazy media whicth hunt, without actually using the old grey matter and applying some (sadly lacking it seems) common sense to a given situation. I honestly cannot believe that this story is still dominating the headlines, when there are more pressing matters happening in the world. Britian is so damn caught up in wanting to be seen as 'p.c' that it frankly makes us look like a joke and further still gives creadance to the little terwp who leaked the tape in the first place- get a life. It is way too easy to make Harry a target given his past misjudgements in behaviour, but seriously, if had to assess each statement/ action we took them nobody would say anything to anyone!!!!

[Senethro]

FUCK WHITEY

[Senethro]

Clarification: Fuck middle class whiteys "common sense" and their childrens narrow world view and entitlement

[Hennessy]

eh? Prince Harry is definitely not middle class, hence the "Prince" bit of his name.

I can imagine Captain Ahmed gave as good as he got, I mean, Harry isn't exactly without several stereotypes himself, he's ginger, a bit thick and undeniably from a privileged background. I think the press have taken a bit of a 'playground' approach to this, we were all taught name-calling was bad when we were young, but adults of sound mind can usually tell pretty much instantaneously when malice is intended, otherwise it's just a nickname, a bit of light ribbing characteristic of all levels of British society, be it the high offices of government or the shop floor. Offence is a give and take thing, you should only really take offence at something when offence is given, and in this case it wasn't. The Equality and Human rights Commission and these people are now going to go and reveal to the public how almost-useless they actually are by demanding Harry's public evisceration. It's a shame nobody will cover that story.

[Anon.]

I don't think I really believe that Prince Harry intended to use the word "Paki" as a racist slur. I gather that terms such as "Paki", "Taff", "Jock", etc, are frequently used in the Services without any malice intended whatsoever. The recent hoo-hah (prompted by the subject's father, not the subject himself, by the way) attempts to judge the mores of one social milieu (that of the British Army) by those of another, totally separate, one (modern civilian public opinion).

The issue in the responsible media seems to be whether or not the "acceptable" use of such nicknames in the armed forces (and, apparently, still the Police too) is indicative of an inherent racial prejudice therein. Not being from a military background myself I admit I raised my eyebrows a bit when first reading about HRH's use of the term, and I personally find it rather distasteful.

Speculating entirely without foundation I think that it might be possible the necessary encouragement of military camaraderie might tend to prompt soldiers to associate as much as possible with those they see as "their own"; as the majority of officers are white upper-middle-class males it is quite probable that those who do not fall into this category might face a certain amount of institutionalised discrimination. I would imagine that the majority of Sandhurst cadets, while recognising and respecting Ahmed Raza Khan's ability as an officer (he was awarded the Overseas Sword at their passing-out parade) would still not have regaredd him as "one of us", any more than they would an officer cadet with a Birmingham accent, no matter how able. O/C Khan would have been nicknamed "our little Paki friend" just as naturally to them (and Prince Harry) as the hypothetical colleague I have just mentioned would be referred to as "our little Brummie friend", and with just as little real malicious intent.

Is the above just social classism (I don't think it's actual racism)? Is it actually encouraged in the Forces? I don't know. I'm also really quite razzed and therefore shouldn't be commenting on such controversial subjects. This post may be deleted by tomorrow evening.

[Garnet]

Obviously the intent behind what is said is important, but words do have meanings, and i would say that the meaning of the word 'paki' has changed from what it originally was to a negative term.

[munchingfoo]

You could say it all the way until the Telegraph becomes a Labour newspaper, it won't make it any more relevant or correct, unless you have some evidence to support it? I'd even accept a reason why you "would say" that, rather than just a sentence of opinion. (see owen's post on the rules of the internet)

Anon - in the forces it is actively encouraged for people to take the piss out of each other and to develope offensive nicknames. It helps build a sense of cameraderie that you just don't get in civvy street. Of course, this is sometimes abused by some people, and there are processes in place to rooot out bullying, but for the most part it is a part of every day military life.

Another point to note is regarding Harry's use of terms "sand nigger", "dune coon", and the like. These terms have been, and will always be, developed by the armed forces as a defense mechanism against having to kill an enemy who is also a human being. These names dehumanise the enemy and make the job easier. Used to refer to enemy combatants, these terms are a necessary evil unfortunately. In the video, Harry uses one of the terms to refer to a white colleague, clearly not racism.

[Anon.]

I am astonished that people are disputing that "paki" is a racist slur in Britain today. I grew up on a council estate in Reading and anyone who wasn't white was called "paki", and in a definite pejorative sense and not as some sort of supposedly affectionate nickname. I knew an Anglo-Afghan family who jeeringly referred to their brother as "a paki" during family arguments as he happened to have been born in Pakistan. I would never dream of using the word myself.

Any uses of the word by the Pakistani community (e.g. the website www.paki.com) I would regard as attempts to reclaim the word, in the same way as black people calling each other "nigger". Whether restricting the right to use such terms to those belonging to the race which they had previously been used to insult is morally justifiable is a whole different argument.