Gawd bless 'em, every one!

[elyettoner]

I'd have thought a simple conditional clause would have been easy enough to understand, but apparently not. I said that if the media's portrayal were correct then it is offensive, in the full knowledge of the media's custom of not portraying things correctly. As for considering it an automatic right to have it silenced, I don't. I was merely noting the hypocrisy in shouting about Christian Voice's lack of tolerance when the show itself is potentially offensive and thus isn't exactly an example of tolerance itself.

As an aside, please don't presume me to be a defender of Christian Voice, nor a critic of the show. These are but observations.

No you still don't get it. It is not hypocritical to point out how much of a moron Mr Green is AND allow that a potentially offensive performance continue. It would only be hypocritical if we wanted to forcefully silence Mr Green, which we do not (he's a good source of laughter after all).

This isn't about tolerance, it's about freedom of expression.

You still don't read my posts carefully enough. Where did I say it was intolerant "to point out how much of a moron Mr Green is"? Complaining about someone else's lack of tolerance while at the same time staging a play that is itself perceived by many to be intolerant is a tad hypocritical. I'm not saying that the show should be stopped. If those staging the show have the right to do so, than Green has the right to express his opinion also, whether that opinion be right or wrong.

[Lindsey. M.]

You are perfectly right, Stephen Green is entitled to express his opinion in any way he wishes, my point about tolerance was to point out that Stephen Greens views on Christianity are not forgiving to those who have different interpretations than him, like myself. He is not tolerant because his aim is to forcefully convert those who do not see things the way he does, this is made clear on his website, he has an intolerance of other interpretations of Christianity and the way in which those people lead their lives and as such he wants to censor this example of something which he disagrees with. His campaign is not accepting of other beliefs and views and consequently is intolerant. There is no wish from this side to censor what he says or does, this show is not about religion, it is about Jerry Springer.

[Haunted]

You still don't read my posts carefully enough. Where did I say it was intolerant "to point out how much of a moron Mr Green is"? Complaining about someone else's lack of tolerance while at the same time staging a play that is itself perceived by many to be intolerant is a tad hypocritical

I must be missing something because from the above it reads like you are insinuating that we are complaining about his lack of tolerance. I could complain about his lack of tolerance, but he's perfectly within his rights to be intolerant of other people.

I'm not saying that the show should be stopped. If those staging the show have the right to do so, than Green has the right to express his opinion also, whether that opinion be right or wrong.

I agree that Green has the right to express himself, I'm glad he does, look at how much fun we're having.

[elyettoner]

I must be missing something because from the above it reads like you are insinuating that we are complaining about his lack of tolerance. I could complain about his lack of tolerance, but he's perfectly within his rights to be intolerant of other people.

I was merely responding to a comment in a post above with an observation and to be honest am a little embarrassed that it's descended into this argument. I'm starting to feel like Stephen Green himself!

[JohnMac]

Auditions for 'Jerry Springer: The Opera' are this week!

Wednesday 11th - 5-8pm in the Salad Bowl, Thursday 12th - 5-8pm in the TV Room
and Friday 13th February - 5-9pm in the TV Room
(They are all on the top floor of the union for all those of you who are unfamiliar with Union geography).

If you want to come along, please prepare a song from a musical be willing to do some scales.

[Andy Monkey B]

(Again just some observations, rather than an actual argument)

As a Christian I do not find the show blasphemous at all nor do I find it offensive,

OK, fair enough if you don't find it offensive (I don't find it offensive either to be fair, as you say it's satire rather than structured and vitriolic attack - I agree), however it is clearly blasphemous, as it (purposefully) makes false claims about the Christian God. As to the rights and wrongs of blasphemy in entertainment (I do enjoy the odd blasphemous joke), that's another matter, and I would refer anyone interested to CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters for a discussion on it (although I don't know where in the book - just read it all).

Anway, I'm sure the play wasn't chosen in order to cause offense. My only criticism is that you've given Stephen Green something else to talk about. I'd rather he kept his mouth shut to be honest. On the other hand, he's given the show a lot more publicity, inside and outside St Andrews than any student flyering campaign could ever manage (this thread is a case in point).

Finally, to all concerned about freedom of speech and tolerance, yes we do live in a society which (thankfully) allows freedom of speech, especially in the theatre. I think it is a mark and a tool of the development of society and honestly, in that respect I would probably enjoy the play for what it has to say. On the other hand, thanks to freedom of speech i can say whatever I want about, say, your mum. I'm sure you wouldn't deny me this legal right, and if it wasn't true you probably wouldn't be offended, but you'd probably want me to shut up. For this reason I utterly defend the Christians who criticise the show (even if i don't agree with their points), as it's clearly an irreverent representation of God and Jesus.

Fortunately I am not in the country this semester so what I say and do about it doesn't really matter. Hope the show goes well anyway! I could say a lot more, but I'll wait for someone to challenge this first posting.

[Haunted]

On the other hand, thanks to freedom of speech i can say whatever I want about, say, your mum. I'm sure you wouldn't deny me this legal right, and if it wasn't true you probably wouldn't be offended, but you'd probably want me to shut up. For this reason I utterly defend the Christians who criticise the show (even if i don't agree with their points), as it's clearly an irreverent representation of God and Jesus.

Just so I understand you clearly. You empathise with Green et al in their desire to forcibly silence such productions, but you would obviously not want to forcibly silence them? I don't think anyone here takes a different position to this. They are perfectly free to criticise the show, just as we are free to ridicule them for it. Unless of course you would condone action taken on their part to forcibly silence the production?

[Andy Monkey B]

On the other hand, thanks to freedom of speech i can say whatever I want about, say, your mum. I'm sure you wouldn't deny me this legal right, and if it wasn't true you probably wouldn't be offended, but you'd probably want me to shut up. For this reason I utterly defend the Christians who criticise the show (even if i don't agree with their points), as it's clearly an irreverent representation of God and Jesus.

Just so I understand you clearly. You empathise with Green et al in their desire to forcibly silence such productions, but you would obviously not want to forcibly silence them? I don't think anyone here takes a different position to this. They are perfectly free to criticise the show, just as we are free to ridicule them for it. Unless of course you would condone action taken on their part to forcibly silence the production?

To clarify, I assume by 'forcibly silence' the production, you refer to the calls from critics for (in the example of the BBC airing of the show) the broadcasters not to show it and also for regulators to stop it, rather than any direct action against the show?
Given this, yes I would empathise with Green et al in their criticism of the show, but while I would defend their legal right to call for the show to be stopped, I wouldn't agree that this is a show that needs to be stopped.
I'm sorry for agreeing with people on the Sinner as well, I know that isn't the done thing here.

[JohnMac]

One of the fantastic things about this show is that it encourages religious discussion. That is part of the reason I chose to propose it in the first place. It is a show that will offend some - just as some of the comments the Pope has made recently has offended the LGBT community, or comments by the Archbishop of Canterbury have caused offence to people within the Church. I question Andrew Baxters claims that the show openly mocks Christianity - this is not the case. It is a show which satirizes the pedestool that Jerry Springer is given in American society. He is portrayed as a character who is not only the saviour of US society, but as a saviour who could solve what is arguably the largest debate of all time - that of heaven vs. hell. I personally am speaking with the CU and the Chaplain about the show and my aims. This is going to be the highlight of the St Andrews theatrical year - not an excuse to offend and insult. If people have concerns and would like to chat - I encourage them to email 'jam69'. With regard to Stephen Green, he is entitled to his opinion - however - as a Christian I think he should spend less time condemning and speaking of hatred, and more time concentrating on the principals of love and community (but thats just my opinion)!

[Andy Monkey B]

I question Andrew Baxters claims that the show openly mocks Christianity - this is not the case.

OK to be fair I haven't seen the production in question, only the limited amounts that are posted on youtube (what can I say, I'm too cheap to buy the DVD), and my 'knowledge' of the storyline comes entirely from Wikipedia (ahem).

Nevertheless, I did not claim that it openly mocks Christianity, I mere said it was blasphemous, as the characters of God and Jesus differ from that of the Christian faith. As a Christian yourself, would you not agree? I'm sure you would never go to church if these were the gods you worshipped.

As I said before, I do not find it personally offensive, as I do not feel it mocks the Christian faith (I agree that it is a parody of Jerry Springer, not of Jesus - see Life of Brian comments). In fact I praise your intention of encouraging religious debate. My empathy for the critics that i expressed before is for their stance against blasphemy, which in general terms I agree with. I would personally however take an alternative stance to attempting to stop the show, and that is to present the real God, and the real Jesus, which coincidentally, the CU will be doing in the very near future:

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 806&ref=ts
CU Missions Week - Monday 23rd to Saturday 28th (don't come if you don't want to be offended )

I would also be careful about throwing around comments of love and acceptance willy-nilly in the Christian faith. Jesus was known to be a pretty angry guy at times, but generally it seems that thats what people need some time. Is this the place to debate the real Jesus? I'll let someone else decide if they want to challenge me on that.

Finally, don't pay any attention to anything I say, because I won't be in St Andrews when it's shown anyway. I just like saying stuff.

And good guess at my second name btw, am I really that famous?