Nurse suspended for prayer offer

[munchingfoo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7863699.stm

I find this horrible. I'm an atheist, but I can't see what the problem with asking someone if they would like you to pray for them! Given that some illnesses have psychological causes, a nurse (who wants to) doing this seems like a great idea. For people who don't believe they just have to say "no", and for those that do, it'll probably make them feel so much better.

[Thalia]

Yeah, I think if i was in hospital I'd be happy that she'd offered. Maybe I don't believe in God, but it's an offer to take some time, think about what you're going through and hope that you get better. I just think it's nice that she cares.

Although, i suppose it could go the other way if she was being too pushy about it and trying to force her religion on her patients but it doesn't seem like that was what she was doing.

[RedCelt69]

My first impressions are that there had to be more to the incident than a simple question along the lines of "would you like me to pray for you?".

Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.

Doesn't sound like the actions of someone who would drop the subject after asking the question. Perhaps she pushed the matter further, making the woman feel the need to mention it to the next nurse who visited her.

Or perhaps it's an overly-sensitive pensioner feeding an overly-sensitive local authority's bureaucracy.

[elyettoner]

Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.

Doesn't sound like the actions of someone who would drop the subject after asking the question. Perhaps she pushed the matter further, making the woman feel the need to mention it to the next nurse who visited her.

I don't see how you draw your conclusion from that. She's seeking legal advice because she faces losing her job over it, wouldn't you do the same?

[RedCelt69]

From the Christian Legal Centre, rather than a local lawyer?

As for the possibility of losing her job... I didn't read the article like that. Someone makes a complaint and red-tape kicks in until the complaint is investigated. Fairly standard procedure... especially for local government. Running to the Christian Legal Centre smacks of sensationalism.

[Haunted]

It certainly appears to have been a harmless gesture, but still one that she should not be offering on behalf on the service that employs her.
Suspension/possible sacking seems ridiculous, if this were the only incident. Call me cynical but I get the impression this is not the first time she's been at odds with her employers over the matter.

[Jormungand]

From the Christian Legal Centre, rather than a local lawyer?

As for the possibility of losing her job... I didn't read the article like that. Someone makes a complaint and red-tape kicks in until the complaint is investigated. Fairly standard procedure... especially for local government. Running to the Christian Legal Centre smacks of sensationalism.

Alternatively, it could be because the Christian Legal Centre would be willing to offer free legal advice while a normal secular solicitor would be expensive. If you're a recently suspended nurse who didn't earn much before the suspension, having free advice is a boon.

[RedCelt69]

<shrug>
Quite possibly.

[novium]

Since we don't know exactly what happened, let's just deal with it in abstract.

I see nothing wrong with her offering to pray for her patients, and if that's what happened, we should be outraged.

On the other hand, if "offering to pray for her patients" is just a euphemism for"badgering them about their religious beliefs" ... well, I don't know enough about the system to comment on what the appropriate administrative response would be, but sure, let's just pretend suspension is the appropriate response, in which case, I would agree with it.

[elyettoner]

The Telegraph gives a lot more detail on the matter. The lady in question used to give prayer cards to her patients and was warned against doing so. As a result, she sometimes offers to pray for them. From the report I didn't get the impression that she badgers them. It's not uncommon for Christians to offer to pray for people without pushing their religion on people. The report also indicates that she risks losing her job and has already been suspended without pay.

She probably went to the Christian Legal Centre because they specialise in these sorts of cases and are thus more experienced than usual lawyers.

[RedCelt69]

So... she's a repeat offender? If she'd previously been warned about bringing her personal beliefs into the workplace, my sympathies for her have gone from marginal to nil.

[Jormungand]

The Telegraph gives a lot more detail on the matter. The lady in question used to give prayer cards to her patients and was warned against doing so. As a result, she sometimes offers to pray for them. From the report I didn't get the impression that she badgers them. It's not uncommon for Christians to offer to pray for people without pushing their religion on people. The report also indicates that she risks losing her job and has already been suspended without pay.

She probably went to the Christian Legal Centre because they specialise in these sorts of cases and are thus more experienced than usual lawyers.

This does change the matter considerably. I thought it a little excessive that she was suspended for this, but if she's been warned before about the practice, then it's fair enough. Even if it is a different form, it is clear what her employers objected to before.

[elyettoner]

Whereas I agree she should have taken the hint the first time, it still seems a bit heavy handed for the Trust to take such a harsh view in the first place. Is it really that bad to ask if someone would like prayer? They can easily say no and if the Telegraph's report is to be trusted (though who knows?) the lady who complained was not offended but "taken aback". It may not have been wise for the nurse to have made the offer, but it hardly constitutes professional misconduct.

A later Telegraph report says: "Great grandmother Mrs Phippen told The Daily Mail: "It didn't worry me, it just struck me as a strange thing for a nurse to do. She finished dressing my legs and before she left the last thing she asked was would you like me to say a prayer for you? I said "no thank you" and then she went.
"It was the first time I'd seen her. She was a nice lady, did the job properly and was quietly spoken. Personally I wouldn't want to see her sacked for something like that.
"I have Christian beliefs myself and maybe she meant well. But it could perhaps be upsetting for some other people if they have different beliefs or thought that she meant they looked in such a bad way that they needed praying for.""

From Mrs Phippen's mouth to Daily Mail to Telegraph perhaps doesn't make it the most trustworthy account, but it just seems another case of worrying about other people being offended.

[Delts]

I personally would worry about any health professional who puts faith in their imaginary friend to heal me when they should be a trained professional and know how effective any treatment they give should be.

And surely a good Christian would pray for all their patients to get better since it's the caring thing to do. If that's your beliefs, keep them to yourself, do it at home. You can't offend your patients by praying for them if they don't know about it and you'd be doing the Christian thing. Don't ask them, just wait and do it at home. There is no need for you to have a prayer session with the patient there and then.

I think it was a harmless act but stupid of her considering her previous warning and entirely unnecessary for her to do. If she had just kept her religion to her self she wouldn't be in trouble.

[elyettoner]

And surely a good Christian would pray for all their patients to get better since it's the caring thing to do.

I have to say, that's the bit I don't understand.

I personally would worry about any health professional who puts faith in their imaginary friend to heal me

Maybe she wasn't praying that she'd be healed. Maybe just that she'd be reassured, or have strength, or any number of things. And you might think he's an imaginary friend, but I and many others don't. When the end comes, if I'm right I'll give you a wink, if you're right... well... I guess nobody will be winking!

[munchingfoo]

Why should she have to "keep her religion to herself"? It's not like she held a gun to peoples heads and told them to do as she said. The article seems to read that if someone declined, then she left it at that.

Why would offering a prayer mean that the nurse then offered a substandard level of treatment? It's not an either or situation.

[RedCelt69]

Why should she have to "keep her religion to herself"?

She was at her place of work. Her religion has no place in her professional life. A personal belief system, if it is to be respected, should remain just that; personal.

It's not like she held a gun to peoples heads and told them to do as she said.

Why should the level (or, indeed, absence) of coercion be a factor? Her employers had previously told her that she was not to offer prayer cards to her patients. She broke the spirit of that order.

As has already been pointed out, why couldn't she have just said a prayer for them? Why make the patient aware of the fact that she intended doing so, if they so wished? Her behaviour isn't that of a humble Christian. It seems that it isn't enough to be a Christian - she must be seen to be a Christian... and not by her god (who would witness the unannounced prayers) but by other people. It is an act of self-agrandisement dressed-up as Christian charity.

Why would offering a prayer mean that the nurse then offered a substandard level of treatment? It's not an either or situation.

That isn't what has been suggested. If a care-worker feels the need to offer a prayer for your recovery, you might conceivably be instilled with a fear that their medical treatment isn't sufficient to see you back to good health. If you can say (with confidence) that you wouldn't draw such a conclusion, can you say (with confidence) that everyone (including an elderly patient) would share your conclusion?

[LonelyPilgrim]

So... she's a repeat offender? If she'd previously been warned about bringing her personal beliefs into the workplace, my sympathies for her have gone from marginal to nil.

And my sympathies for you have gone from nil to downright hostile. She should lose her job and be denigrated in the press and in public opinion because she opted to present sympathy for someone's suffering in the manner she best knows how? Where is the harm? If I, as a believer offer to pray for a non-believer, what harm is done? None. Worst case scenario I'm wasting my time in a prayer to a non-existent power, but I'm still thinking positive thoughts about the person for whom I'm praying. What would you prefer? That I not care at all about the person I'm caring for, that I should see them as one more human statistic on the blood soaked road to the socialist workers' paradise?

The only people who would take offense at a well-meaning offer of positive thought are those with an irrational hatred and intolerance for religion - who can't see past the label to the sympathetic motive underlying the harmless offer. People like that... like you... scare the crap out of me, because it's that mindset of blind intolerance that led to people being burned at the stake, gassed in concentration camps, or machetied to death in Rwanda far more than any particular religious belief or political ideology. So get off your high horse and recognise this is a case of extraordinary injustice or stfu - we don't need your blind hate here.

[RedCelt69]

And my sympathies for you have gone from nil to downright hostile.

I'm crying on the inside. No. Really.

She should lose her job and be denigrated in the press and in public opinion because she opted to present sympathy for someone's suffering in the manner she best knows how?

She hasn't lost her job. Being denigrated in the press? I'm sure most of the press are praising her and denigrating her employers. Presenting sympathy in the manner she best knows? Offering a prayer isn't the same as offering sympathy.

I notice you completely overlook the fact that her employers had forbade her to do such things whilst at work. No comment on that?

Where is the harm?

As mentioned above. Do I have to repeat it, or are you able to scroll up? You didn't offer a response to the possible harm I already gave.

If I, as a believer offer to pray for a non-believer, what harm is done?

Again, you aren't addressing the reasons already given. Why offer? Why not just do it? What is to be gained by offering other than the smug satisfaction that the person thinks better of you?

What would you prefer? That I not care at all about the person I'm caring for, that I should see them as one more human statistic on the blood soaked road to the socialist workers' paradise?

Not too hot on the old logic and/or thinking thing, are you? Sympathy and empathy can be exhibited without recourse to religious beliefs. It isn't a case of religion on the one hand, callous uncaring communist on the other (not that communism is synonymous with uncaring). In between the two is a wide, wide spectrum.

The only people who would take offense at a well-meaning offer of positive thought are those with an irrational hatred and intolerance for religion - who can't see past the label to the sympathetic motive underlying the harmless offer.

And yet it isn't always harmless. See above. Y'know? The bit you ignored.

People like that... like you... scare the crap out of me,

Boo!

because it's that mindset of blind intolerance

Right. My mindset is different to yours, so it must be mine that's blindly intolerant. Right.

that led to people being burned at the stake, gassed in concentration camps, or machetied to death in Rwanda far more than any particular religious belief or political ideology.

Now you're just being hysterical. And naive. And, more importantly, stupid.

So get off your high horse and recognise this is a case of extraordinary injustice or stfu - we don't need your blind hate here.

Oh deary me
Telling someone to shut the fuck up... well, that always works. You've won the argument right there. Never mind that you didn't address a single point I raised... it is enough that you paint me as an evil Christian(classic irony, btw)/communist/nazi/Rwandan. Then, as a final twist in your outrage at my supposed intolerance, you tell me that I'm not to be tolerated here. You see the irony there, don't you?

Don't you?

[Haunted]

Holy dog shit! Atheism caused the holocaust!