americans

[niall]

em, just becase the bible says that God created the world in 6 days doesnt mean that it was 144 hours, each of the "days" could have been many hundreds, even thousands of years, which falls in with the theory of evolution. i'm a christian and i believe in evolution, so am i wrong or right?

schools should not dis evolution as its the most neutral view on creation, i dont care if schools want to dis christians or catholics, etc.

[hr]I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader
and I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dogsled.

[Colin]

[s]Unregisted User Deej wrote on 21:11, 5th May 2003:
Teachers are not allowed to talk about religion in the schools. They are not allowed to overtly celebrate religious holidays or talk about faith-based anything. Students are discouraged from doing so, as well.

There is a lot of feel-good talk about tolerance and multiculturalism. Anybody caught giving a muslim person a hard time, for example, is subject to expulsion.

Honesty. Compassion. Diligence.

So many reasons why Dubya would be doing detention if still at school...

Not to mention bullying smaller and weaker countries that disagree with him.

[Colin]

[s]niall wrote on 23:52, 5th May 2003:
christians or catholics, etc.


I always thought that Catholics were Christian...

But lets not even start this argument.

(memo to self: don't point out these things when living in Belfast next year.)

[Guided By Vices]

The best thing I can contribute on this subject is to quote somebody else. This is from a short article by Gregory Bateson, entitled "On empty-headedness among biologists and state boards of education". He starts off by saying:

My father, the geneticist William Bateson, used to read us passages of the bible at breakfast - lest we grow up to be empty-headed atheists.

Evolution has long been badly taught. In particular, students - and even professional biologists - acquire theories of evolution without any deep understanding of what problem these theories attempt to solve. They learn but little of the evolution of evolutionary theory.

The extraordinary achievement of the writers of the first chapter of Genesis was their perception of the problem: Where does order come from? If random events lead to things getting mixed up, by what nonrandom events did things come to be sorted? And what is a 'random' event? With what Word should we designate the principle of order which seems to be immanent in the universe?

Bateson goes on to suggest that everybody's mind would be broadened if they learned about the different ideas that have been put forward on this subject (both within our own society and in other societies). So it's not only important to learn about the Genesis theory but also about the medieval Great Chain of Being, or Lamarck and Darwin. He finishes up with:

It is silly and vulgar to approach the rich spectrum of evolutionary thought with questions only about who was right and who was wrong. We might as well assert that the amphibia and reptiles were "wrong" and the mammals and birds "right" in their solutions to the problems of how to live.

By fighting the fundamentalists, we are led into an empty-headedness analogous to theirs. The truth of the matter is that "Other men have laboured and ye are entered into their labours" (John I:38), and this text is not only a reminder of the need for humility, it is also an epitome of the vast evolutionary process into which we organisms are willy-nilly entered.

(The whole article is in Bateson's "steps to an ecology of mind" which is in the library)

In the end, even if we disagree with an earlier theory we have to recognise that it has contributed in some way or other to the theory that we do agree with. The best schools are the ones that teach as many different ways of looking at the world as they can.

[niall]

[s]Colin wrote on 00:02, 6th May 2003:
[s]niall wrote on 23:52, 5th May 2003:[i]
christians or catholics, etc.


I always thought that Catholics were Christian...

But lets not even start this argument.
[/i]

yeh, i should have put prodestants and catholics, but i think you get my idea



[hr]
I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader
and I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dogsled.

[Lyeta]

Yeah i also read that article. Apparently a kids story about a dolphin had to be adapted because it discriminated against students who didnt live near the sea...

[Deej]

Munchingfoo, the website is:
www.cobb.k12.ga.us/~chalker/gravesclass2/sarah.htm

Let me warn you in advance that my very bright eight year old has a great imagination but is woefully low on the spelling totem pole! So be kind in your assessment of her little stories.

Thank you, McK, for being kind about my post. I don't really mind all the US bashing that goes on--but at some point I hope people will realize that we are not really as stupid or inconsiderate or backwards as so many people want to think.

[hmmmmmmm]

[s]Unregisted User Deej wrote on 13:42, 6th May 2003:
Munchingfoo, the website is:
www.cobb.k12.ga.us/~chalker/gravesclass2/sarah.htm

Thank you, McK, for being kind about my post. I don't really mind all the US bashing that goes on--but at some point I hope people will realize that we are not really as stupid or inconsiderate or backwards as so many people want to think.


maybe i should have said that the article was only talking about some USA states. but some of the things were very very strange.

also i have read about variuos very strange things in british schools eg in one school in london they apparently have a reward scheme where you get points for turnig up to school , buying food, not being late etc and once youve saved up popints you can buy mobile phone vouchers. so im not slagging off all americans and some british schools can do stupid things as well.

[highway_to_hell1982]

personally, i can't stand the freakin yanks, though i have to admit they have nice women (the fit ones, that is). but generally they think they're the 'kewlest kids in the blUck' (thats how they say it) and with all their money and amenities they love to show off and piss off those who cannot afford to go places. i get sick to death listening to the stupid yanks in my class talking about their 'worldwide travelling adventures' plans, just because they have the money to fly around and see stupid places. grrrr, cannot stand the damn show-offs, wish they could all go back home to the yankie states of freakin america and just stay there!

[CarolynSD]

This post has been deleted.

[highway_to_hell1982]

thats your opinion carol. frankly i'll be so damn glad they'll piss off back to where they came from as i'm so sick to death of hearing their plans and what they wish to do. i wish to do the same things but cannot since i don't have any money. i just wonder how yanks get so much money. studying in the states, the tuition fee is like $25k...compared to £1.1k here, i think thats pretty freakin dumb, don't you think?

[Deej]

Highway, we really aren't all like that. (I know I'm setting myself up for a lashing by replying to you, but I guess I'll take that chance.)

There are more people like me than there are like what you are describing--you just happen to have a concentrated amount around you or something. In order to come to St. Andrews I will have to sell my house and everything in it and get a ton of scholarships and probably a mountain of student loans. But my education is worth that to me. I'm like you--I think--I don't have a ton of money and nobody to make my life work out. I won't be traveling or even going out, most likely.

But I have a goal in mind, and am glad to work however I have to in order to make it happen. I'm sure you are the same way. We Americans are generally a hard working bunch, and the moneyed few are not a good representation.

Whatever it is that you have experienced at the hands of Americans that has made you so bitter against them, I apologize for--and truly hope you will find one who can show you how the nice ones are. Some of us are not too bad.

[Cain]

It's not the fault of, nor is it only typical of americans, that some of them can afford to go for jaunts around Europe all the time.

If they're being dicks about it, then it's because they're probably dicks.

I was assigned to a group project in first year, and a the rest of my group (who were all european & more than a bit wealthy) spent a lot of the time complaining about all the yahs and how the group members often felt inferior to all of these big spending yahs.

Then they got on to their plans for the summer, which were variously "Go to portugal, then toronto, then hang around london." or "Spend a few months in israel, then wander around Europe for a bit." two others were going to just toddle around Europe, taking in germany, denmark, israel, russia etc.

I explained that MY holiday would be spent entirely working in a food ingredients factory and walked out.

Not very classy or mature on my part, but the point is that highway's problem seems to be with people who mess about in the holidays and boast about it, but has wrongly identified it was being a problem with americans.

There are, as deej says, one or two cool americans kicking about here. Just as there are one or two total pricks. but you get that with every sort of group.

[hr]
I'm Johnny Knoxville and this is Invading Russia in the Winter

[EviLTwiN]

teachers in america may not be allowed to talk about religion too much, but a lot of the reports about evolution suffering are true. Because:

It is the people in charge of the school system, the people who set the rules, who decide what textbooks will be standard in all schools in their area. They can and do do things such as insist creationism is taught as a perfectly valid and equal theory to evolution... in science class! Thats no joke, although only a few such states have gone that far.

Also there have been cases where groups of parents have lobbied their childrens school and forced them to tear out pages of textbooks relating to evolution.
Of course it is these extreme stories that you hear about, but it is only the tip of a large "religion masqurading as science" iceberg.

America is the an extrememly fundamentalist country, and given the power they have that is a very scary thing.
Hell, George Bush's "branch" or church or whatever they're called, of christianity, believes the world is coming to an end soon. How does that make you feel. How do we know his personal feelings wouldn't hinder his judgement on decisions with regard to startign a nuclear conflict?

In 100 years people will look back on this time with the embarrassment and scorn with which we look back on the British Empire colonising everywhere.

[Dj Balloon]

I think we're back to James Baster's idea that slagging off Yahs is a dumb thing to do. I know plenty of annoying Yahs and Americans as well as plenty of decent ones. Judge people for who they are, not what they are, and you'll find life a whole load more pleasant...

[Cain]

[s]Dj Balloon wrote on 13:56, 8th May 2003:
Judge people for who they are, not what they are, and you'll find life a whole load more pleasant...


Amen

[hr]
whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance

[EviLTwiN]

it makes me slightly embarrassed to be british.

if i was american i would be extrememly embarrassed.

Plus a bit of fun:
America...


1. Flags everywhere...
2. Belief in their superiority...
3. Willing to invade countries as opposed to only fighting invaders...
4. Nice culture but dangerous leadership who beleive they're doing the right thing always...
5. A desire to reshape the world in their image.
6. Exetreme sense of nationalism...
7. Gradually expanding their control of the world... ie. now they're planning on leaving airbases in iraq permanently. They have power in a shit load of smaller inferior countries.

It reminds me of another regime about 65 years ago, only the good old USofA are doing it with capitalism, free markets, and the excuse that they are trying to police the world or protect their national security.

Germany made the mistake of just invading. America make up the laws and reasons to support their expansion, then use their money and power to gain enough support so that no one dares oppose them, then they can do what they want, as long as they claim they're doing it for the good. Then when they never leave the country and retain power in every way except officiality, the media have moved on, and people foget.

America doesn't invade militarily normally. It invades economically with its money, power, and threats of what it can do as its weapons of choice.

And if a couple of international laws get in the way? well, who cares, they helped make them anyway... if they're annoying they'll just ignore them.

if another country broke them, and it wasn't in americas interest then all hell would be let loose. No one can complain when america do it because there would be reprecussions... their weapon of power strikes again.

And anyway, they've got god on thier side, or so ive heard.

[EviLTwiN]

rant over....
i love the american people.

I think that they deserve a much better government.

[Cain]

besides, here's some actual fun on that topic

IMAGE:www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/images/war.001.gif

edited to fix that picture, and becuase eviltwin replied to his own post before i did. so everything is now well.

[EviLTwiN]

i know its got nothing at all to do with americans in st.andrews

I was under the impression tho that the thread was titled "americans"...

Oh yeah, and the first post made no reference at all to do with st.andrwes.

So i posted. sorry if it broke the continuity of the other stuff people were talking about, but this is a masseage board. who says a post has to be related to the specific topic that has preceeded it?

right, got it?