University challenge

[WashingtonIrving]

I feel a bit sorry for RedCelt here, but sadly I don't think he's got much of an argument. I don't think the shinty analogy works, I think if you were to count it al up you would find that a greater proportion of english people know something about cricket than the proportion of scottish people who know something about shinty, so the 2 aren't even comparable in that respect. I personally know nothing about shinty, and I think that would hold for most people.

But I sympathise because I hate getting cricket questions in quizzes too. Stupid game. I think, though, that's more to do with a certain similarity between the type of person who likes cricket and the type of person who goes on university challenge, roughly generalising of course. Roughly.

I think it's probably fair to see that both cricket and rugby union receive disproportionate amounts of press coverage due to the sort of people that follow those sports. I say that as a massive rugby union fan, huge cricket hater. If it wasn't for the games social standing rugby union wouldn't get mentioned at all in Scotland, the fan base is embarassingly small.

I'm glad to see that nobody has been accused of anti-english sentiment yet. Scottish disinterest in the english cricket team has a lot more to do with dislike of cricket than anything else.

[RedCelt69]

I quite often lurk around The Sinner and groan inwardly whenever I see a post by Red Celt as I know it'll be representative of the self-importance and general contrarian boorishness that puts me off posting on any forum let alone The Sinner.

Well, seeing as how you credited me with providing you with a genuine lol, let me congratulate you on reciprocating.

But in this one instance I thought I'd indulge myself in expressing what an utter clown you are making of yourself.

All well and good. Now, having expressed your thought about me as a person, how about you try refuting my argument? Using… y'know, logic, reasoning, countering my claims… and all that jazz.

Well done for completely missing my point - and defending cricket itself rather than the issue of it's coverage in the rest of the UK.

My hatred for cricket is incidental - and, as with everything, very subjective. Knowing that lots of people like something that I don't - or vice versa - lends nothing whatsoever to the original point about the rest of the UK (especially Scotland) being subjected to cricket. My intense dislike for the game/sport/past-time has, however, made me more acutely aware of it when it does pop-up in places like the BBC. It has been a bugbear of mine for years (since my relocation north of the border failed to reduce my exposure to the damned game)… long before this week's broadcast of UC. Hence my raising it as an issue… and nobody has yet convinced me that I'm wrong. Calling me a clown and banging on about how great cricket is adds nothing… other than the knowledge that a cricket fan thinks that I'm a clown. Quel surprise. I think you're a twat. How has that helped?

As for the athleticism involved in cricket… I was forced to play it at school. The joy of the approach of Summer was somewhat quelled by the knowledge that we'd have to tromp along to play cricket twice a week until the Summer holidays kicked in. The bowler does, indeed, do a lot of running back and forwards. As do the two who are batting. The rest of it involved lots and lots and lots of standing around doing nothing. Until someone chanced to hit the ball in my general direction. The batting, incidentally, only involves running (back-and-forth a very short distance) by the two who are in play. The rest of the team? Lots and lots of standing around doing nothing.

Compared to Football or rugby (but especially, football) cricket isn't even remotely athletic. An old man with a beer-gut that puts his feet and the stumps in shade can happily play cricket on the local village green… yet he'd drop dead from a coronary if he attempted a game of football. There's athleticism in cricket, but it is very specifically amongst a very small group of participants at any one time. Hence my comment.

I don't think anyone is taking the fact that you only met 3 people who followed cricket whilst growing up in England as anything but weak.

You can call it weak all you like. It doesn't stop it being utterly true. It's easily explainable why, socially, I encountered very few cricket fans - I have better taste than to have cricket-followers as friends (you, being a perfect example). It is less explicable why the same was true amongst work colleagues.

I sometimes wonder if Red Celt is just another troll. I f*cking hate trolls. Don't feed them children.

You're not the first to call me a troll and I'm confident that you won't be the last. Why do I have such confidence? Because there is no shortage of morons in the world who don't understand what a troll actually is.

A troll will post something purely for the purposes of getting a (negative) response. Often, they don't make any further posts, preferring to sit back and watch the one-sided flame war that follows. They may very well not believe a single word of what they said. The important element of trolling is the reaction, not the rightness-or-wrongness of what they said.

Calling someone a troll simply because you disagree with them is to misunderstand what a troll is and demonstrates nothing but your utter ignorance. By your flawed definition, a troll is someone who doesn't follow the herd and has views which might be contrary to the mainstream. That doesn't make them any less right - unless they are. In which case, you will get much better results by refuting their argument (if your inferior intellect allows) than calling them names. Just some friendly advice to the hard-of-thinking.

[paxo's briefs]

Interesting thread. So interesting that I thought I'd watch the show and judge this "bias" for myself. Jotted down the questions I felt had and English/Scottish/Welsh slant.

Scottish questions - Douglas Gordon's Zidane film and one about the Armadillo in Glasgow
Welsh Questions - One about some building in Cardiff
English Questions - Round on Shakespeare, Mark Wallinger, Steve McQueen the artist, Stonehenge, whole round on 15th century English history, building in Gateshead, whole round on some building in London, John Braine, one about Jarrow and Arndale Centres and one on Harold MacMillan.

The way I see it Scottish people are at a disadvantage on any quiz show aimed at the whole of Britain. I like Alexander Armstrong's show "Pointless". A category the other day was "English Premier League Football Grounds". You would never see "Scottish Premier League Football Grounds" as a category. They've also had "Members of the 1966 England World Cup Squad" and "people who have appeared on Bank of England banknotes since 1970". Never have I seen a Scottish-specific category on that show.

However, there are hardly ever any questions on Cumbria, or Nothumberland, or Devon etc. Demographically Scotland is a small part of Britain. This is reflected culturally. Therefore Scottish people tuning in to the "national" news are forced to listen to "new measures in England and Wales" or "exam results in England and Wales". If you want the Scottish figures you have to wait for Reporting Scotland. This is not the end of the world but English people do need to understand that it can be irksome. I'm sure a few eyebrows would be raised if the Saturday teatime BBC1 London slot was taken up by second tier Scottish football just as the BBC1 Scotland slot has recently been filled by second tier English football. I'd love to see how long the people of Oxfordshire would put up with their licence fee paying for Raith Rovers vs. Partick Thistle.

On another note, Re: the cricket round on Uni Challenge...didn't see it as particularly biased. None of the questions related to England. To compare cricket in Scotland to Shinty in England is a bit off. Scotland has a team which I believe competes in the County Championship and was at the last World Cup. The sport is more widely played in Scotland than you'd think. Take a trip along the road to Freuchie and try telling them that nobody in Scotland cares about cricket. I believe they won the National Village Cricket Championships at Lords in the 1980s. They take their cricket very seriously.

[paxo's briefs]

Forgot to mention. One thing about cricket that does annoy me is the fact that the team representing England and Wales is routinely referred to as "England". In the 2005 Ashes one of "England's" best players was Simon Jones, from Swansea. I seem to remember Geraint Jones the "Welshman" making a key contribution in that series too.

[RedCelt69]

On another note, Re: the cricket round on Uni Challenge...didn't see it as particularly biased. None of the questions related to England. To compare cricket in Scotland to Shinty in England is a bit off. Scotland has a team which I believe competes in the County Championship and was at the last World Cup. The sport is more widely played in Scotland than you'd think. Take a trip along the road to Freuchie and try telling them that nobody in Scotland cares about cricket. I believe they won the National Village Cricket Championships at Lords in the 1980s. They take their cricket very seriously.

There's also a cricket ground in Partick. Or at least there was in the 1880s map I was studying during some genealogical research. I'm assuming that it is still functioning as a cricket ground today. I've never claimed that it has no following in Scotland - just very very little (there are eccentric people everywhere in the world)... even less of a following than it does in England.

My comments thus far have involved the BBC's wider approach to the game of cricket in TV quizzes rather than isolating UC as being particularly bad. However... out of interest, what constitutes subjects deemed valid to appear on UC? Anything and everything?

I used to watch UC as a kid in the late 70s. I didn't understand a lot of what was being asked, but I still found it interesting/entertaining. My understanding then was that the questions being asked were all on subjects that were taught at university - with the team members balanced out to cover as many specialities as possible whilst also including enough of a wider knowledge of those subjects that the contestants weren't, themselves, studying. Has that changed in the show's more recent incarnation? What university subject would include cricket grounds from around the world?

[RJSmith]

Keep on truckin' then pardner 'til you're convinced you've been proven wrong. Plenty more morons to a-mow on down, your work will never be done . I indulged myself in feeding you and the reply you've concocted pleases me no end that you'll still be there, insistent with the boorish contrarianism for another 300 posts until I feel the urge to play again (a la http://xkcd.com/386/). Whatever makes you happy!

*what's also made me titter is you've gone and used 'twat' in response to 'clown, wally and buffoon', tsk tsk, however shall you shed that troll image *

[RedCelt69]

Keep on truckin' then pardner 'til you're convinced you've been proven wrong. Plenty more morons to a-mow on down, your work will never be done . I indulged myself in feeding you and the reply you've concocted pleases me no end that you'll still be there, insistent with the boorish contrarianism for another 300 posts until I feel the urge to play again (a la http://xkcd.com/386/). Whatever makes you happy!

I'm pretty sure that this is an internet forum - one aimed at St Andrews students (past and present). Following our university appearance on UC, it seems churlish to complain that it prompted a discussion about the show... and to come out of lurker mode to snipe at someone who engages in online debates - by knocking forums, the users of such forums or (in this instance) one particular user of such a forum... especially when you do so using the media you find so irksome.

Given how quiet the boards have been recently, I'd have thought (as a lurker) that you'd be glad of having fresh material to lurk over... whether you have a strong dislike for the subject (in which case, don't read the thread) or the poster (in which case, don't read my posts). I mean - really - problem solved.

Edit:

*what's also made me titter is you've gone and used 'twat' in response to 'clown, wally and buffoon', tsk tsk, however shall you shed that troll image *

WTF!? There's an accepted response-level to name-calling, now? Twat is correspondingly-mild... however, I wasn't aware that there was an arms-race agreement on proportionality of responses. Perhaps you could grade "naughty" words for us, so we can adopt your strange code-of-practice. And if you still think I'm a troll, go read up on what a troll is - and don't come back from lurker-mode until the simple definition has penetrated your dense little mind.

[RJSmith]

*sigh* Bravo, well played, there is no match to your resolve. You make The Sinner strong; definitely the far superior user of internet forums. Just keep on letting it flow, I'll restrict myself, wait another 300 posts before I take on such a clever little chappy.

[dac]

My comments thus far have involved the BBC's wider approach to the game of cricket in TV quizzes rather than isolating UC as being particularly bad. However... out of interest, what constitutes subjects deemed valid to appear on UC? Anything and everything?

I dunno, but one of the valid subjects is definitely "cricket".

[beeny]

literary figure.

Hahahaha. Sorry. Just always amuses me to hear Burns being heralded as any kind of literary figure; I make it a rule not to take seriously anybody who writes in dialect.

And grow up, the Scottish University?? How many people here truly are Scottish? And do you really think Jeremy Paxman saves up the rounds on supposedly 'English-centric' matters to cruelly dish out to non-English universities?

Just how big is the chip on the collective Scottish shoulder that you see bigotry in EVERYTHING except your own navel-gazing behaviour?

[RedCelt69]

Just how big is the chip on the collective Scottish shoulder that you see bigotry in EVERYTHING except your own navel-gazing behaviour?

Aaaaaaaaand the prize to the first anti-Scot sentiment goes to Beeny.

Would you like a goldfish or a stuffed toy?

[777]

I want the coconut, if there is one .

[beeny]

Being half-Scottish and half-English and having lived in this country for all but 3 months of my life, I am more than entitled to my view. Especially as I was picked upon in school for not being fully Scottish (c.f racism in Harry Potter if the idea is too hard for you to grasp). Oh the glares in history classes which were ENTIRELY Scottish-centric, but did I bitch and complain to my teacher? No. I just dealt with it. "Please don't ask me about James V, I'm ENGLISH".

And it wasn't anti-Scot, I just get so fed up of hearing Scottish people whinge about how poorly they are represented in British TV. That and I get fed up with your vaguely anti-English sentiments about the BBC. But I guess that's ok right? You are a *tiny* minority in terms of this country. Do I hear Welsh people baying for blood when they're once again skimmed over on the 10 o'clock news? No, because nothing of note really happens in these countries. Reporting Scotland is the biggest piece of piss broadcasting I have ever seen.

And the Burns hatred? Because I'm fed up of a two-bit poet being referred to as a Bard just because he's the closest thing to a good poet that Scotland has produced, not that William McGonagall didn't have his moments.

Small. Man. Syndrome. en masse.

[beeny]

And apologies. I am not anti-Scottish, I'm anti nationalist.

[Al]

I'm fed up of a two-bit poet being referred to as a Bard just because he's the closest thing to a good poet that Scotland has produced

Have you ever heard of Byron? Probably not.

[RedCelt69]

Being half-Scottish and half-English and having lived in this country for all but 3 months of my life, I am more than entitled to my view. Especially as I was picked upon in school for not being fully Scottish

Therein lies the chip on your shoulder. You faced racist bigots at school, therefore you see it as fine and dandy to be racist in return?

Oh the glares in history classes which were ENTIRELY Scottish-centric, but did I bitch and complain to my teacher? No. I just dealt with it. "Please don't ask me about James V, I'm ENGLISH".

Funny. People I've spoken to who passed through the Scottish education system complained that history lessons were anglo-centric, leaving them oblivious to the history of their own country. Any passing observation of the English monarchy will show you how prevalent the Scots were in forming England. The two nations are conjoined twins (and, the metaphor extends to modernity - which is something those clammering for independence would do well to keep in mind) with both being heavily involved in the formation of the other.

And it wasn't anti-Scot, I just get so fed up of hearing Scottish people whinge about how poorly they are represented in British TV.

Is a whinge justified if it is based on reality? Or is whinging never acceptable?

That and I get fed up with your vaguely anti-English sentiments about the BBC.

I don't do vague. If I was anti-English, I'd come right out and say so. I'm just anti-anti-Scots. Nothing in this thread had been anti-English (or, indeed, anti-Scottish) until you decided to "contribute". Anti-cricket? Most definitely. Anti-BBC? Hmmm... I'm a fan of the BBC. I'm just not a great admirer of the real-ale quaffing, pipe-smoking dinosaurs (with one foot firmly in the bygone days of empire) who set the questions on their quizzes.

But I guess that's ok right? You are a *tiny* minority in terms of this country. Do I hear Welsh people baying for blood when they're once again skimmed over on the 10 o'clock news? No, because nothing of note really happens in these countries. Reporting Scotland is the biggest piece of piss broadcasting I have ever seen.

Uhm... anti-Scot much? Scotland is, indeed, a minority (I'm assuming by "you" you meant Scots, not me personally) in the UK. That doesn't mean that nothing of note happens in Scotland; nothing that interests you, perhaps.

And the Burns hatred? Because I'm fed up of a two-bit poet being referred to as a Bard just because he's the closest thing to a good poet that Scotland has produced, not that William McGonagall didn't have his moments.

So you don't like Burns; many do, and many (whose opinion I value more than yours) gives his work more due than you.

Small. Man. Syndrome. en masse.

Well done. Admitting it is the first step towards overcoming it.

[RedCelt69]

I want the coconut, if there is one .

You'll have to wait until Beeny's done using it as his head.

[RJSmith]

...I still maintain its your incessant vehemence about every little point that makes you so unpopular. You're really not doing the power of good for your anti-anti-Scots crusade by being The Sinner's pitbull, but if putting your points forth online and defending them with a frighteningly unwavering (and monotonous) passion gets you off that much then whatever. I'd just relax and not bother to be frank.

[RedCelt69]

...I still maintain its your incessant vehemence about every little point that makes you so unpopular. You're really not doing the power of good for your anti-anti-Scots crusade by being The Sinner's pitbull, but if putting your points forth online and defending them with a frighteningly unwavering (and monotonous) passion gets you off that much then whatever. I'd just relax and not bother to be frank.

You're labouring under the misapprehension that I care if people like me. I don't. It is a very liberating thing, indeed... and makes for a much more honest and open discourse. Besides, I have no interest in people I don't like liking me.

[RJSmith]

Wouldn't say labouring, just struggling to understand the motivation to quote and scrap and quote and scrap thread after thread (my own little foray into just this one has been *quite* enough for me) . But hey-ho, as I said, if all this gets thee thy kicks, carry on squire. You against the world! Go get'em tiger, grr...I eagerly await your next fearsome crusade.