Come on guys,some help please!!

[Katherine]

OK so when i posted a message on whether or not to come to st.Andrews 2 take medicine i got significantly more bad reports than good.I was just wondering if anyone would like to give me either some good reports or some other ideas about studying medicine,nursing or midwifery?

[J]

Well, I like it here . . . . but as said I'm Maths so I have no idea what the medical department is like.

[Hose]

please take damn advice. J is an idiot and talks from the posterior. listen to all the others who have said don't touch the place wif a barge pole.

[Anonymous]

Yes, come to st andrews to do medicine.
I can be honest with you and tell you the medics and biology students are the only sane people in St Andrews. THe department is excellent and I'm sure you will have a good time. Although I agree with many of the negative comments, they dont really apply to what you will be doing or who you will be hanging out with (most of them are from arts students who have nothing better to do than sit in Costa Coffee paying to surf the net and write abusive stuff)

Good luck

[Erica]

This is J in disguise, he is a propaganda merchant for the University Budget Company plc, he just wants your money.

[jan]

Don't call us 'guys'

[stone]

RESSURRECTION

[Rex Mundi]

0th Jan 0000? Wow thats been some wait for a reply...

Anyway I like the Medical school here; it's a good traditional course that'll give you a much better scientific grounding that other courses.

[Buzzboy]

Ah! Back after an extended absence...

Right a few things:

1) Medics and Biologist are sane?!!
2) If you do decide to come to St Andrews you are taking a conscious decision to take your clinical in a big city (namely Manchester for the majority) so you must bear that in mind.
3) Most people are nice, don't worry about all the stereotypes, you will find people you get on with.
4) St Andrews doesn't have the reputation in Medicine that it once enjoyed.

[hr]On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:

"Can I leave it with you?"

[immunodiffusion]

[s]Buzzboy wrote on 10:30, 10th Nov 2003:
If you do decide to come to St Andrews you are taking a conscious decision to take your clinical in a big city

Not necessarily - there are now changes to Manchester's teaching hospitals, which mean that some students will end up either in Stoke on Trent (at the University Hospital of North Staffordshire) or in Preston (at the Royal Lancashire Teaching Hospitals), rather than in one of the teaching hospitals in Manchester or Salford.

Some students also manage to transfer to Oxbridge/London/Edinburgh for their clinical years, but this is quite unusual, and there often aren't that many places.

St Andrews doesn't have the reputation in Medicine that it once enjoyed.

I would say that, if anything, the reputation for medicine at St Andrews is increasing, rather than decreasing. With recent changes including the re-creation of the Faculty of Medicine, the appointment of a new Dean of Medicine, new legislation from the Scottish Parliament allowing the University to issue MD degrees (postgraduate doctorates in medicine) have resulted in many changes to the way the department is run. There are a number of new staff appointed within the last year, including some top researchers, and the course is currently undergoing a very radical overhaul, meaning medical teaching in St Andrews in a year or two will be totally unlike what is currently carried out.

And saying that, medicine at St Andrews already has a good reputation - it maybe isn't for you if you want a really hands-on practical course - but that's not what it is aiming to offer. If you want to think about the theoretical side of medicine, its a perfect place to study. Its a relatively small, friendly department, its easy to ask if you don't understand. We have some very good resources, although no patients. It has a good reputation for research, and if your interests lie more in the research side of things than practical side, it offers a very good experience. There is also an extra year over and above what non-St Andrews medics do - this might not make you a better doctor, but it provides you with a more broad-based education covering more subjects in a greater depth. If any new students want to know what the current course is like (bearing in mind it will change shortly), have a look at the Sinner's Guide to St Andrews article about the Bute School of Medicine:

http://www.thesinner.co.uk/article-view.php?article=36

[Thalia]

This is gonna sound horrible since one of my mates is a medic...but i always thought of St Andrews as one of those last ditch places for medicine as in...it's the only place that'll take you if you don't get good enough grades for anywhere else. Maybe i was wrong...cos u know typing it it sounds rather cruel to the medics i know ^^;;

[hr][s]A Question
A voice said, Look me in the stars
And tell me truly, men of earth,
If all the soul-and-body scars
Were not too much to pay for birth.
---Robert Frost[/s]

[immunodiffusion]

[s]Thalia wrote on 12:25, 10th Nov 2003:
i always thought of St Andrews as one of those last ditch places for medicine as in...it's the only place that'll take you if you don't get good enough grades for anywhere else.

I would disagree with this statement. Having gained straight A's at school, and having an offer for another medical school too, I decided to come to St Andrews because it has a very distinctive teaching style which I like in preference to that offered at other universities. As with any course, some people don't like it, but the majority of people I know have chosen St Andrews, because it is one of the few courses with: pre-clinical/clinical split; a small department where you can get to know the staff; three years of basic science rather than two; a lecture-based course rather than PBL; and regular anatomy dissection over two years.

I also know people from school who were rejected from St Andrews and gained a place at another medical school, so the idea that St Andrews just takes other medical schools' rejects isn't true. Different medical schools are looking for different kinds of people in their selection procedure, and medicine as a subject has very competitive entry at every medical school.

Yeah, some people are here who would have preferred to go elsewhere and didn't get into that medical school, and the course does not suit everyone. St Andrews does offer something positive and different for those who want this kind of course, and many people have chosen to come here for that reason. Other medical schools offer other things, like patient contact from year 1, problem-based learning and systems-based teaching, and this suits some people. Different medical schools offer different things, and different students want different things out of a course, and it is important to find a course that offers the right kind of experience for you. The idea that one medical school is "better" than another is not very useful, and is very subjective. Its more useful to look at it in terms of whats better for each individual student.

[Buzzboy]

With all due respect I think what you are talking about re: St Andrews' reputation is actually a future projection. The status quo as is (I work with medical doctors all the time) is that St Andrews is perceived as the last ditch place for those who lacked the va va voom to get onto a proper medical course. Not saying this is true, but that's reputation for you.

[hr]On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:

"Can I leave it with you?"

[Rex Mundi]

Well I got three offers to study medicine (smae grades at all), two in big cities and one here. I choose St Andrews because of the course if offers. Other universites offer Problem Based Learning courses; that sort of teaching style didn't appeal to me, so I went for St Andrews with it's more traditional approach to medical teaching. The course is not perfect but when I compare myself to friends in other medical schools, such as Manchester, I get the impression I know my anatomy and physiology better.

We do learn some things in an unnecessary amount of detail here; but I've heard of concerns that the PBL courses in the larger medical schools are actually teaching in too little detail, and that the constant clinical focus can detract from a deeper understanding of some of the material.

[immunodiffusion]

[s]Buzzboy wrote on 14:47, 10th Nov 2003:
St Andrews is perceived as the last ditch place for those who lacked the va va voom to get onto a proper medical course.

Depends who you ask. I know of a lot of doctors who would trust a St Andrews graduate over someone who's done a PBL course, because the PBL graduates are perceived to not have enough in-depth knowledge of basic anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc. But, as I said above, I think its more important to find a course that suits you than going to a particular course just because of what you think other people will think of it.

[Abracadabra]

Well I'm another one who chose St Andrews over other prestigious institutions to study Medicine, with good grades in hand. Although I really love it here, sometimes I do wish I'd done my homework eg. about the extra year to get an Honours degree. I also do know a lot of people who only got in based on the strength of their persuasive abilities and had got turned down by everywhere else. However, these people do get wheedled out as the work gets harder, as at the end of the day, we're all training to be doctors - if you can't stand the heat you have to get out of the kitchen otherwise patient's lives are at risk. Thus, St Andrews can't afford to be training up poor quality doctors, and surely the extra year of training does some good in the long run?

At the end of the day, no matter where you are, it's upto you to make the effort - St Andrews does have a lot going for it though it may not be officially recognised as such - so it's more upto you to make it into what you want it to be, in order to get the most out of it.

[Donald]

"The status quo as is (I work with medical doctors all the time) is that St Andrews is perceived as the last ditch place for those who lacked the va va voom to get onto a proper medical course."
Well I heard that doctors working with Glasgow course graduates had said that the Glasgow graduates lacked basic knowledge. Perhaps these are all just opinions of doctors who have only met a few graduates from each course. I think you get good doctors and not so good doctors from each course. I think that St Andrews course offers one of the best knowledge base for clinical practice. Perhaps it is the last choice for some simply because the six year course is more expensive then a five year course

[Rex Mundi]

[s]Abracadabra wrote on 21:13, 10th Nov 2003:
I also do know a lot of people who only got in based on the strength of their persuasive abilities and had got turned down by everywhere else. However, these people do get wheedled out as the work gets harder, as at the end of the day, we're all training to be doctors - if you can't stand the heat you have to get out of the kitchen otherwise patient's lives are at risk. Thus, St Andrews can't afford to be training up poor quality doctors, and surely the extra year of training does some good in the long run?

Yeah, that's down to the unique admissions policys and the fact that admissions are handled by Dr Jackson; nice guy but perhaps not the best person for that particular job? St Andrews was the only place that didn't interview me, something they can't do for much longer because they'll end up with all the people not up to the course and rejected by the other institutions. Also it's a big shame when places are wasted after 1 or 2 years, when there are suitable candidates around the country being rejected because Medicine is over subscribed. Without being unkind to those who drop out; I have a feeling many of them could have been identified before they started the course and turned down (to their benefit as well as the uni's), and the places given to people more likely to use it fully.

(BTW Abracadabra, don't forget the Honours program can be done either here or in manchester - or did you mean you thought the 3yrs included the honours program?)

[s]Donald wrote on 22:00, 10th Nov 2003:
Perhaps it is the last choice for some simply because the six year course is more expensive then a five year course

Yeah good point. I'm lucky in that I could afford to choose to come here, but otherwise the extra year plus the huge distance from home would have been too much. St Andrews is kidding itself if it thinks it can get people to pay top-up fees to come here in the future I think. Thats definately something people should consider; it's expensive to live away from home: St Andrews has high rents, expensive shops and is not the easiest place in the world to get to; the extra year on top of all this is a big factor.

EDIT: Sorry katherine, hope we're not all going negative on you again! Seriously, it's a good medical school, very friendly, tight knit with some excellent staff. Just make sure you think carefully before you come here, because while I love it here, I know people who didn't know what to expect and aren't enjoying it. It's a big decision, probably one that has to be taken even more carefully than a choice between two big universities because it is such a unique place and such a unique option. But for me personally, I have no regrets what so ever and am very happy here.

[Pandyboy]

I'm a first year medic here, and I am enjoying myself. The course is interesting, however, as there always be, there are less interesting or seemingly relevant parts of the course that will make you lose the will to live - but you'll get that anywhere, in any course. As long as you put the work in etc etc. It is worth it at the end of the day, and if you think you can stick it - you end up in the same boat as every other med. student in the country.

I will pass on some goss! A fellow medic here knows the Dean of a certain PBL course in the country, who advised that he choose St.Andrews over his own course as he himself didn't like it and was having great difficulty finding lecturers to teach the course. Worrying when the Deans of these courses don't like 'em, eh?!

Good luck in your choice, as has been said, find out what suits you. Hope we're helping

[immunodiffusion]

[s]Rex Mundi wrote on 00:19, 11th Nov 2003:
St Andrews was the only place that didn't interview me, something they can't do for much longer because they'll end up with all the people not up to the course and rejected by the other institutions.

They have changed their interview policy, and this year are interviewing most candidates before they offer them a place for next year. And it won't just be Dr Jackson, there are other people doing the interviewing... With the vastly increased numbers of people who applied here to start this year, they are going to have to be much more selective about who they take next year.