Let the American bashing commence

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Oh, please - collective responsibility is such a joke. Party politics has entirely removed the effectiveness of the vote - it's got to the point where you'd have to start your own political party to really do anything and who has the time to do that?

Maybe if we all had a perfect foreknowledge of how our votes would affect the outcome of our country, then collective responsibility wouldn't be such a nonsense.

[EviLTwiN]

it's true, americans do seem slightly (or extensively in some cases) brainwashed.

they also are trying to reshape the world in their image.

they also display their flags everywhere.

they are dangerously nationalistic, to the point where you can't criticise the government without getting your patriotism called into question.

their leader is a maniac.

they invade countries.


anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?


[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
[s]http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin [rar!]......http://www.feedbacking.com
http://www.red-llama.com/eviltwin/photogallery.htm
[/s]

[Yemminie]

[s]James Baster wrote on 12:49, 5th Aug 2003:
And yes it is a generalisation. But at some point you have to start making them. Everyone says to Americans here "oh, we all hate usa, but not you, your nice". Well, at some point the whole prospect of "Collective responsibility" comes into play - yes, a person only has one vote and cant change the world with it: but you cant go forgiving every american you meet but simultanelsly arguing at the american system.


I agree with you to an extent here, but as far as this "collective responsibility" stuff goes, at least as it pertains to "Americans here," well, you have to remember that most of the American students at St Andrews weren't old enough to vote in the last presidential election. So sure, maybe "you can't go forgiving every american you meet," but surely you can forgive a lot of us.

[dan greenberg, look for me on campus next year, we can shout at each other!]

Ooooooooohhhhh, I guess it's time for an American to weigh in!

First off, I think it's that pride in America (nationalism as some have called it) that makes America great. In my mind, if a people is ready to defend a nation and its reputation, it shows that that country has and is still doing a great job providing for its people. It's that pride that makes me post here, even though I'm probably like to receive a digital bashing (maybe James Baster will even digitally nail me, that I'd like to see).

Secondly, I know many Americans who were against the war in Iraq, but supported the troops once they got there. It's that pride in America that makes us care for our boys and girls, men and women overseas, and protect them, as the U.S. Embassy and Army did for years while I was growing up in Saudi Arabia.

"they invade countries."
It's true, we do. But at least the U.S. did something about what was going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia. How long did the European powers toss the hot potato of the Balkan crisis around before America finally spearheaded an effort to solve the problem? 3 months? 6 months? A year? How many people died in that time? Granted, the aftermath of that 'invasion' hasn't been heartening, but very probably it was better than letting the different inhabitants of th Baltic states kill each other willy-nilly. If Europeans don't want America invading other countries, try to solve some of the world's problems on your own.

I think here I'd like also to return to the old note of 'America is so great' yada, yada, yada. America is pretty great, but we're not perfect. However, as far as I'm concerned, I think the spirit of America (not necessarily its physical manifestations), the ideas in which it was founded, were as great today as they were over 200 years ago, and its those great ideas that still do, and will continue to, inspire the pride that is inherent in most Americans; even those, who, like me, did not grow up in America.

Lastly, I've heard a lot of "oh, I'll definitely vote next time." Well, if you'd voted this time, we might not be having these problems.

Much respect, best of luck, vote well and so forth,

Dan

[FingerMouse]

I just love that bit in the article where the guy says "We always take the word bomb seriously". Next time I go flying to the US I'll make sure to label everything for them, "This is my toothbrush. Definitely not a bomb".

Oh, and I'll take a copy of Rage Against the Machine and be sure to point out the song bombtrack.

I wonder how bomb disposal squads manage to travel anywhere in the US, surely all their training manuals and uniforms with "Bomb Disposal" written across the back in big letters get impounded each time?

Oh, and on the issue of generalising, if all Americans aren't that dumb, why the hell are they letting the ones that are run the country and write the laws?

[Al]

"I think the spirit of America (not necessarily its physical manifestations), the ideas in which it was founded, were as great today as they were over 200 years ago, and its those great ideas that still do, and will continue to, inspire the pride that is inherent in most Americans"

Oh come on. I presume you refer to the War of Independence. The leaders of the American Revolution were hypocrites, criminals and liars.

Hmmm, perhaps those ideas still live on after all. They certainly do in the heart of the present US government.

[hr]"Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time".

[Melkor]

The slogan "WAR IS PEACE" from Orwell's 1984 seems to have become so true now...

Oh while I'm at it "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" too! (i.e. ignorance of whether WMD existed in Iraq)

And why not "SLAVERY IS FREEDOM" for iraqis?

"BIG BUSH IS WATCHING YOU!"

Apologies to any americans here, I'm just joking of course, but I thought it would be interesting to point out the similarities

[Rennie]

Ok Dan. You've really pissed me off now - not completely because of your views, but because I just typed a long response, and then inadvertantly selected it all and deleted it. So now i'm really angry with you.

Let's go through these points and see where I think you went wrong.

1. 'doing a great job providing for its people' --- Really?? Tell that to the shockingly high amount of people that are under the poverty line (which in itself is set too low to avoid further embarrassment to yourselves)

Tell that to the single mothers and unemployed, who for which the state benefit system is but a complete joke.

Tell that to the immigrant worker, working for 3 dollars and hour in unsafe conditions.

Tell that to the millions of other citizens who are stuck in a cycle of pverty, unable to break out of it because they're black/chinese/mexican/(Insert most nationalities here), or from a poor area, or not able to go to school because they need to earn money.

Your country reminds me of 19th Century Britain. And we weren't anything to be proud of.

Where you made your mistake was thinking that it provides well for EVERYONE. Because, quike frankly, it doesn't. It just provides for the rich, a group that I think you're very much a part of. I'm not saying it's bad to be rich though, just that you obviously haven't experienced the real world enough to have a knowledge of it.

2. 'I know many Americans who were against the war in Iraq, but supported the troops once they got there'---WHY???

So what if it's Billy Bob from down the road or anyone, they're still doing the act you were opposed to, WHy should it make a difference? Surely it would make more sense to be even more opposed to the War, as it will waste your own countrymen and women's lives?

I just don't support the notion that because it's your soldiers, you MUST support them. Sure, support the individual, but don't support the idea behind it.

3. 'But at least the U.S. did something about what was going on in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia'

Yeah, you did something alright. I wouldn't say it was very helpful though. You arm a country because it benefits you at the time, and then, when things don't go your way you invade them and take over.

Proof?

Afganistan -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm -- seems like you were pretty friendly with them at that point.


Iraq -
http://www.rehberg.net/arming-iraq.html -- 'Here Saddam, have all these guns, and kill those Kurds'

Yugoslavia --
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/37 ... _paul.html -- Why did the US villainise the Serbs so much? Because it suited them at the time? I think so

Well, i'm getting tired now and it's sunny. So, in short, are the 4 billion or more people that don't like America wrong? Because you can count me in that number.

[Keynes]

**Tell that to the millions of other citizens who are stuck in a cycle of pverty, unable to break out of it because they're black/chinese/mexican/(Insert most nationalities here), or from a poor area, or not able to go to school because they need to earn money.**

Students from poorer families do have the opportunity to attend college. US universities always offer loans, and many have amazing scholarship aid as well. I think US education is tremendously overpriced. And obviously, it is much harder to perform well academically if one has to work a lot, or does not have access to very good educational resources.

However, many universities recognize this, and offer aid and academic support to bright students who come from less affluent backgrounds. I know this, because I volunteered at the scholarship and aid department at the university in my town. I think there is more room for economic mobility in the US than in most other countries. No federal government can appease every citizen. Ultimately, states and communities need to take some responsibility for the welfare of others.

Also, when you blame all US citizens as a collective whole for the actions of our government, you misunderstand what "corruption" really entails.

**Oh come on. I presume you refer to the War of Independence. The leaders of the American Revolution were hypocrites, criminals and liars.**

I think that's often been the case with politicians, and not just those in the US.

**they invade countries**

Britain invaded Iraq as well.

So perhaps the problem is that most people are simply "inherently selfish."


[hr]
Challenge is pleasure.

[Anon.]

[s]Unregisted User dan greenberg, look for me on campus next year, we can shout at each other! wrote on 05:40, 6th Aug 2003:
...but very probably it was better than letting the different inhabitants of th Baltic states kill each other willy-nilly.

The Baltic is on the other side of the continent, you ninny.

[Anon.]

[s]James Baster wrote on 21:57, 5th Aug 2003:
Collective responsibility starts to come in somewhere, at some point. Even if its just to say "Jeez, that guy bush/blair is a idiot. Next time the elections roll round, I'mm gonna make damn sure I vote"

[s]Prophet Tenebrae wrote on 22:18, 5th Aug 2003:
Oh, please - collective responsibility is such a joke. Party politics has entirely removed the effectiveness of the vote...

Shhh Richard - anything that discourages people from voting Labour is good. Let the man have his say.

[Anon.]

Why is everyone so anxious to point out that they didn't/wouldn't have voted for Bush? I would have - anybody rather than that oily bounder Al Gore.

[David Bean]

[s]Al wrote on 15:48, 5th Aug 2003:
Terrorists/hijackers are not stupid. Why then do the governments of the US and UK presume that they are?

Two words: Richard Reid. Still think terrorists aren't stupid?

[larkvi]

I just don't support the notion that because it's your soldiers, you MUST support them. Sure, support the individual, but don't support the idea behind it.



No, you don't understand--not supporting the troops is a lynching offence

Anyways, the way the people who get on TV to speak of "supporting our troops" phrase it, you either support your troops or you hope they all die. So it is Hobson's choice...

It is also a common misconception that the anti-war effort ceased after the beginning of the war. I know people who were very devoted to it and there were huge rallies which were roundly ignored by the administration. (Please recall that this one is the President who stated on national television that what the people think doesn't matter, and they could protest all they wanted for all he cared...)

You must remember that we don't have the BBC over here--there is only one legitimate news outlet (PBS), but no one watches it. The second most insightful source for political commentary in the US behind the 'News Hour with Jim Lehrer' is 'The Daily Show with John Stewart.' For those of you unfamiliar with US television, this is the fake-news show on the Comedy Central network. CNN ranks a fairly distant third, and then it gets worse until you get to MSNBC and Fox News Network (The Bush Administration Propaganda Network, and near the top of the rankings).

One can hardly expect an informed populace in a land where all information is controlled by the same six plutocratic media outlets, with a vested interest in the conservative status quo. (but please, recall that the Republican members of the FCC are hard at work reducing it to merely two or three media outlets, because, apparently, the situation still needs fixing...)

So that covers the US--the UK, however, has the best news programming in the world--what is your excuse?

I must thank you all for this thread though. One has to be reminded once in a while that there are stupid and bigoted opinions in every corner of the world. The US having 5x the population, it just has 5x as many stupid opinions. But you have restored my faith that they exist even in that fabled fairly-land accross the sea.

Those who might recall my time at St Andrews will recall that I am no enemy of American-bashing, and that it is a sport that I am indeed quite fond of. But, before that comes the duty to mock and point out stupid people, blowhards, and those expressing bigotedly-hypocritical opinions of all nationalities. My advice then, to so many posters on this thread is (and several like it that keep cropping up on other sinner boards), if you are going to mock Americans for being witless, dumb, callous, and bigoted, then please stop writing witless, dumb, callous, and bigoted posts, so that we might take you more seriously.

[Keynes]

[s]larkvi wrote on 21:25, 6th Aug 2003:
[i]
CNN ranks a fairly distant third, and then it gets worse until you get to MSNBC and Fox News Network (The Bush Administration Propaganda Network, and near the top of the rankings).


But MSNBC does have the very sexy Dan Abrams, which makes it worth watching.

[Donald Renouf]

[s]larkvi wrote on 21:25, 6th Aug 2003:
...if you are going to mock Americans for being witless, dumb, callous, and bigoted, then please stop writing witless, dumb, callous, and bigoted posts, so that we might take you more seriously.



A very good post. I think you win the bottle of port this week, old boy.

[James Baster]

Well, I agree that you can't say "You, Daniel, due to your actions on the aforementioned dates caused the decreased spending by congress on free health care and so ARE A BAD MAN!" I dont want to hold each citizen personally responsible for the errors of there country.

But geneally here in St. Andrews every British person says "America - fucked up administration!" but in the same breath says to every American they know here "not, you, youre lovuerly." And this just seems to me to reach the stage of stupid condradictions. I know Democracy doesnt work, but it still is effective enought that the elected government represents some of the people. To entirely divorce the citizens of any responsibility for the government leads to a situation where most of the voting public dont care about polotics, dont take the time to find out what its all about and so nothing ever changes. Oh, wait .....

Also pride in America is not wrong. Pride in your country is a good thing, but not where it gets to the levels where you say things like "America takes good care of all its citizens" with a straight face. You can't even attempt that until at the very least you have free health care and you remove the stupid situation whereby a person cant have a nail file on a airoplane but can have a small armoury of personal hand guns. 11,000 deaths a year and no-one bats an eyelid ..... but now I'm Amerian bashing. I didn't want to do that.

Whoever invoked George Orwell has it spot on in my mind. When all the citizens are busy hating johny foriegner, there not going to go against the government. Clinton did the same with his war on drugs. Meanwhile, behind this phony war, civil rights are being steadily erroded. And stop feeling smug you British, go search for the RIP act, especially the part where refusal to de-encryption your private data for the police lands you in jail. And that one sneaked past us about 5 years ago.

I get fed up when every single act of Terrorism is done by a group "with links to Al-Queda!" Jesus, those guys spread themselves so thin. It all smacks to me of "big bad boogie man!" Quite personally, I even doubt Al-Queda had links to the Taleban, considering A) the recent discovery of how much our goverments lie and B) the fact there will shortly be an american oil pipe across Afganistan, something the Taliban didn't want.

So please, dont tell me you support the arrest of a man who makes a joke. Your not helping security. All your doing is incresing national paranoia. Quite frankly, I never have second thoughts about the saftey of flying, even the flight from NY I took on the 15th September 2001. Meanwhile, I often have second thoughts about such mundane things as crossing the road.

[Rennie]

Larkvi:

Yeah, sorry, i forgot it's a lynching offence to not support the troops.

We have the best news in the world? Ha! The Sun is our best selling newspaper, closely followed by The Mirror.

Don't tell me we have the best news mate. It's just not as obviously government controlled as the news is in most countries.

The anti war rallies were broadcast on the news, as a second story behind edwina currie's affair with john major. A million people march on London, and that's the main story.

However, your news is terrible, I couldn't bear to watch the Fox News Channel when I was over there - but did out of disgust. Maybe that's how it gets ok viewing figures - pure disbelief.

Oh, and your post confused me - were you attacking mine and other posts or were you supporting them? Or were you just playing devil's advocate?

David Bean:

I don't think Richard Reid was completely stupid. brainwashed by the particular 'teachers' at the now infamous mosque he attended in London, yes - but to get a bomb on a plane you must have some brainpower - however small.

I still don't understand why he didn't detonate it in the toilet though - and I guess we'll never know, now that he's serving life in prison.

[Greebo]

Rennie, I think when Dan says supporting the troops, he means acknowledging the fact that they're risking their lives, regardless of whether or not you, or they, agree with the cause.
You can support the troops and not support their actions.

[hr]http://greebopichost.netfirms.com - Loadsa drunken photos and suchlikes.

[Keynes]

<<<>>

You're absolutely right. This administration uses fear to divert citizens from its sordid actions.

Rather Machiavellian, isn't it? Of course it is. But it's also very effective, and has been throughout history.

Everytime Bush's ratings drop, we go into "Orange Alert," and whispers of new terrorists threats echo throughout Washington.

The whole system is sort of amusing. It reminds me of a weather forecast.

"We are issuing an orange alert in Cleveland and McClain counties today. We have a terrorist front coming through." :p

Bush is only a puppet. Karl Rove is a strategic mastermind.

Barely a parody: http://www.mikehersh.com/Karl_Roves_Ele ... iary.shtml

[Bush to Democrats: All your base are belong to us.]

Wesley Clark 2004?

[hr]
Challenge is pleasure.