Religious 'Signs'

[Paranoid]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12 ... index.html

Having lived in the middle-east as an expat for 6 years, and lived in a truly multi-cultural school at the same time, I find this article quite interesting. I understand Chirac's reasoning, to an extent, but whether taking away what can be people's ONLY identity in life is not the best way to go about it. I mean why stop at religious beliefs? He should propose that all school children must wear trousers (or skirts) regardless of gender to 'ensure sexism it not an issue in the future'. Bit extreme I know. Ultimately if its what the French citizens want then who's to argue with them?

Anyone got their own views on this?

Just like to point out that coming from CNN I also take the whole report with a touch of scepticism, no offense to americans (I have loads of american friends) but your not exactly best buddies with the French are you?



[hr]..I've got this pain down all the diodes on my left side...

[exnihilo]

I just saw it on the Channel 4 News as well. Seems a bit extreme. And possibly faile utterly to address the real problem. Hmm. Not sure I'd be at all happy to be told that I couldn't wear a yarmulke.

[RaphX]

Instead of embracing and loving each and every person, let's suppress them all instead. That'll keep things fair.

[Nick Mitchell]

I've been thinking about this one. Why do people feel the need to homogenise everything to get along with their neighbours? Surely the modern ideal is a tolerant multicultural society, not a mono-cultural one.

I sense a certain undercurrent in the thinking. Muslim dress seems to be something of a pre-occupation of many French and Germans. Why do they feel so threatened? In any Great British (at least) city such symbols surround us, and yet we don't seem so bothered. Perhaps in Britain we have a better attitude to a other cultures than we credit ourselves with?

[Pussycat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... buck14.xml

I can't remember where I first read about it but there was also mention of local leaders of other religions (Sikh was one, can't remember the other) expressing their concern about the whole thing. Why should people have to hide their religion? And why do they pick on Christians in this country? It certainly isn't other religions who are behind it, just another example of reverse discrimination which helps no one and does nothing to help happy integration :/

It seems particularly ridiculous when it comes to Christmas - an event which the local leaders all agreed was enjoyed by all. How is wishing someone Merry Christmas on a card for example going to be seen as offensive?

Oh well, "seasons greetings" to all.

[Jonny_G]

What you have to remember is that France is a deeply secular state and has been since 1905 (or there abouts) and there is an entrenched feeling that the state and religion (all religions) should be completely separate. The ban covers all obvious symbols of religious faith, not just headscarves.

My understanding of the Koran (although limited) merely indicates a woman must be modest and dignified but does not specifically state that hair should be covered.(although that is a different yet important issue of women's rights).
Also, france is a democracy and if the majority of voters wish this law to be effective, then it should be so, whether it is right or wrong. Polls do seems to suggest support for the ban. I am myself undecided whether or not it is right though.

[Paranoid]

I agree with a comment above, supressing cultures is definitely not going to solve any problems, and CNN's article certainly links this move to the whole muslim faith and extremists etc. which means suppressing it will probably make things twice as dangerous in the future. A useless comment I know, but dividing state and religion in this manner is just stupid and mindless!

[hr]..I've got this pain down all the diodes on my left side...

[Orphax]

This is the same guy that likes to wind us up by associating with one of the world's most hated national rulers.

[maz]

As a person working in a french school a ce moment. In fact I am typing this in the Salle de Prof. I do find the idea of Laïque education a reletavely good one. The principle is that school is run by the state and is completely separate from the church of any religion. Therefore it is completely unacceptable to wear or show anything pertaining to a religion. For example i was warned about wearing a crucifix, which is a tiny plain silver one, and none of my pupils - muslim, jewish, christian whatever wear anything that makes them stand out as one religion or another. The pupils here dont have uniforms and so can wear what they like otherwise, there is no problem with having to wear a skirt etc, and i have seen girls put their scarves back on as they get outside school. I really think it is a good thing as noone is immediately recognisable as any religion:which leads to - at least in my school less bullying. I was also interested to see that the little avril lavigne alike 14 yr olds were made to take off pentagrams also.
PS the separation of religion and school is complete - pupils here have no RME lessons - and so have no knowledge of other religions, this i feel is a bad thing. Its got to be better to know the main ideas of every major religion than to be completely ignorant.

[Buzzboy]

It is easy to say that the French are wrong as a Brit, but all it highlights to me is that we don't really understand French culture. It would do us well to bear in mind that France is a secular state (unlike Britain) and this secularism is one of the cornerstones of French Democracy. President Chirac has a duty to protect the French way of life and its democracy by ensuring that secularism remains part of that democracy. Personally I have no problem with banning religious signs from state schools, they shouldn't be there in the first place. Maybe kids should be taught religion at school, but this can often prove too difficult to do in an unbiased way (just like the religious education I received (1 Lesson on Islam, 1 Lesson on Hinduism, 1 Lesson on Judaism and the rest of the year on Christianity as well as being told that a person who includes God in their life is less selfish than one who doesn't - what a load of crap). Organised Religion is divisive by its very nature and bring these divisions into schools is not a good thing.

[hr]On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:

"Can I leave it with you?"

[Guest]

[s]Pussycat wrote on 00:14, 18th Dec 2003:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... buck14.xml

It seems particularly ridiculous when it comes to Christmas - an event which the local leaders all agreed was enjoyed by all. How is wishing someone Merry Christmas on a card for example going to be seen as offensive?

Oh well, "seasons greetings" to all.


Just to play devil's advocate: how would you feel if you were wished a Happy Hannaukah, or Ramadan? Not just by one person, but everyone, and the media and retail stores as well, everywhere you turn? If everyone assumed that you celebrate these holidays, and never thought that perhaps you're different from them? I believe in celebrating difference, not hiding it...and blanketing everyone into the same group by wishing them a Merry Christmas is not doing that. It's an assumption by one group of people that their holiday is the "main" one, which is not right.

[Buzzboy]

Welcome to Festimas, the secular mid-winter festival that's all inclusive.

[hr]On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:

"Can I leave it with you?"

[exnihilo]

Hmm, interesting. My policy on this sort of thing is pretty simple. I am giving Christmas presents to a few of my friends because they are celebrating Christmas. I don't expect any in return, because I am celebrating Chanukah. It is, like so many things, about proportion and perspective. I would give a wedding present to someone who was getting married, but I wouldn't expect them to give me something because it isn't about me.

The point being that it is a question of being respectful of other people. I would hope people who are aware of my Judiasm would have the decency not to be "Merry Christmas"-ing me and, assuming they remembered, I would be happy for them to wish me Happy Chanukah. I live in a country that is majority Christian, so I have no problem seeing Christmas decorations all over the place, I certainly don't take it as an attack on me or on my faith. Equally well, I live in an area which is predmominantly Muslim, and I have no problem with that either.

However, if you seriously think that wishing people Merry Christmas regardless of their faith is not offensive I think you've missed something. Either you have so secularised Christmas that all you're saying is Happy Tuesday or you're a bit insensitive. Walking up to someone you know to be Jewish and saying Happy Christmas will most likely be taken as a gesture of ill-judged goodwill, but could easily be read as "you don't believe in Christ, but that's just stupid, and you're wrong, so there". Say it by all means, just exercise some awareness of others when doing it would be my point.

I think ultimately we're confusing people talking about / displaying their faith with people denigrating that of others. Which is dangerous, but not unprecedented. If I were to say I was proud to be British (and I am), there is a body of people who would call me a nationalist for it. Despite not saying anything against anyone else whatever, merely that I am proud of who I am. And I think the French approach on this one is very, very wrong.

[Buzzboy]

Well it doesn't really matter, does it? I celibrate on Christmas day because it is a national holiday and I get presents. I like christmas probably because of its mid-winter pagan traditions more than celibrating the birth of some religious leader in Palestine.

[hr]On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:

"Can I leave it with you?"

[exnihilo]

Yes. As I said, many people do. But then it could be argued (and please understand I am only playing Devil's Advocate here) that people saying that the original meaning of Christmas is unimportant, its just fun is a bit like people saying the origins of the swastika are unimportant, we shouldn't care if people want to tattoo it on their arms and march around our cities.

Most people no more celebrate Christmas than I do - they jsut like the presents. But in its origin it is about Christ and therefore you should try to show some respect to non-Christians when discussing it with them. But, like I said, its easy to forget and 99% of people will not be in the least bothered if you wish them a Happy Christmas - indeed, will likely wish you one right back. And then go off and light their menorot quietly in private.

[Buzzboy]

You picked a good one in the Swastika. It is actually a (hindu I think) religious symbol. Very good.

[hr]On the Seventh Day God said to Adam:

"Can I leave it with you?"

[exnihilo]

Indeed, I realised afterwards that it was a bad example. But you get my point - even if what it means to people now is not what it once meant, the original meaning is still important.

[Pussycat]

[s]Unregisted User wrote on 01:03, 18th Dec 2003:
Just to play devil's advocate: how would you feel if you were wished a Happy Hannaukah, or Ramadan? Not just by one person, but everyone, and the media and retail stores as well, everywhere you turn?


My point was that I would not be offended. Why would I be by people wishing me a happy time? The leaders of the other religions made it very clear that while obviously they do not celebrate Christmas they do enjoy the atmosphere of the time. They also felt that seeing as they don't have to hide their festivals (being allowed to advertise them etc) it was wrong to discriminate against one religion in particular just because it is seen as more mainstream.

If someone said Happy Hannaukah to me or an actual practising Christian or even an atheist are they really going to be offended? Obviously people who knew me better would know what I did and did not celebrate but I'm not going to jump down the throat of some well meaning person. Some people don't celebrate Christmas sure but this particular festival has also evolved into much more than it used to be, it certainly isn't a purely religious affair for starters.

My argument of other faiths not being offended was not just my opinion, it came from people of other faiths who wish to put aside any segragation that remmains. It would be nice if the Christians were allowed to do so to. It's like those Christmas cards sent out by a department of the goverment (I think) that said "Seasons Greetings" and deliberately had no pictures of the baby G or crosses etc. It did however have pictures of a synagogue and a mosque. In what way does that make sense?

[harmless loony]

[s]Jonny_G wrote on 03:14, 18th Dec 2003:
What you have to remember is that France is a deeply secular state and has been since 1905 (or there abouts) and there is an entrenched feeling that the state and religion (all religions) should be completely separate. The ban covers all obvious symbols of religious faith, not just headscarves.

My understanding of the Koran (although limited) merely indicates a woman must be modest and dignified but does not specifically state that hair should be covered.(although that is a different yet important issue of women's rights).
Also, france is a democracy and if the majority of voters wish this law to be effective, then it should be so, whether it is right or wrong. Polls do seems to suggest support for the ban. I am myself undecided whether or not it is right though.



The comment about the headscarves again shows people's very limited understanding of Islam. Muslims do not just follow the Quran, they also follow the Hadith (the saying of the prophet Muhammed - peace be upon him) and the Sunnah (the actions of the prophet). The concept of wearing headscarves originates from a Hadith not from the Quran. So those that keep going on about the what the Quran does and doesnt say, need to find out more about Islam before making their comments.

I personally do not wear the hijab that often, however, from my own persoanl experience I felt a lot more comfortable walking around St Andrews with my hijab on, and this year I have found that I have adopted it on a more regular basis. I'm not a piece of meat and i certainly do not want to walk around feeling like one - but unfortunately I do at times. Please note I am an educated woman and I am not being forced into wearing a hijab. I find it laughable that some people in the west cannot just accept the fact that maybe Muslim women are comfortable with covering themselves. Just because it doesn't fit into the western concept of a woman's freedom, please dont assume that if i walk around with my head covered I must be very oppressed.

[Just A Notion]

Can't we just conclude that Jacques Chirac is racist, and doesn't wish to admit it so openly?