I apologise for my lack of knowledge of the Muslim faith, I did say it was limited. Thank you for enlightening me on this subject. However at no stage did I suggest all women who wear the Hijab are oppressed, that is clearly not the case.
I'm not a piece of meat and i certainly do not want to walk around feeling like one - but unfortunately I do at times.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
i would be interested to know what your opinion on the forthcoming ban on headscarves in french schools as you didn't include that in your post.
To Just a Notion: no we can't as this debate has nothing to do with racism.
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Re:
by Paranoid on Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:10 pm
My view is that wearing the hijab or any other sign of religion is part of someone which should not be taken away. It's not a sign of oppression at all, its a sign of faith and there are people in the world who have deep rooted beliefs and so taking away these relatively minor signs of religion just seems ridiculous. In terms of bullying etc by wearing them, what help will banning it in schools do if, as someone said above, the children just wear them the minute they exit the classroom, seems a bit pathetic (the regulators im talking about here). As for wishing people a merry xmas and having the commercial world ram it down everyones throats, I'm afraid to say that its more to do with the commercialisation of xmas, business's do it to sell more products nothing more! I very much doubt every business in Britain which has a merry xmas poster on there window really respects the christian and other religious roots it has at all! Sad fact of life unfortunately!
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Re:
by harmless loony on Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:30 pm
Apologies Jonny_G, I wasn't suggesting that you particularly were suggesting that. I've just been on the BBC website on the have your say section and this is where I formed that response from! My comment was just a general response to what people have said to me recently.
As for feeling like a piece of meat - I have a lot of male friends and when out and about with them I've noticed that they always leer at any female that walks past and comment on her figure/looks/whatever. It sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable. I sometimes feel like I'm visiting the zoo with them. I have also become increasingly aware of the way guys look at me and in the past, in seperate incidents, i've had guys trying to hit on me - something which I felt extremely uncomfortable with. Perhaps I am partly at fault for getting myself in that situation. But I left feeling like a piece of meat which guys just feel that they can come up to and treat as they please. However, when I have the hijab on, I find that guys will talk to me a lot more politely - probably because it helps to set out the boundary to them.
As for my opinion on the situation in France, I don't agree with what Jacques Chirac is proposing. I certainly do not think it's down to racism and I would be most surprised and saddened if people did play that card. Sometimes the race card is played too easily. If the West claims to offer freedom, then it will let people dress the way they choose. They are highly unlikey to find Muslim women welcoming this law with open arms, instead, they are likely to fuel more bad feeling. I feel that France is making an issue out of something that never was an issue. It worries me that a state feels it is ok to start dictating what people can wear - where are we going to draw the line?
As a Muslim, I certainly am not offended by Christians wearing crucifixes/crosses or Jews wearing skull caps. In some sense I respect them even more - because they are open and proud of what they believe in - and good on them I say! I just cannot understand what these so called liberals have a problem with and what they are so afraid of?
In some sense it appears that the French govt are saying the Muslim women that you are either French or Muslim, I dont see why they have to make that distinction? I am proud to say that I am both British and Muslim but moreover I'm a woman who has made a free choice about the way i dress and I appreciate the way that I can do that with ease in Britain.
As for feeling like a piece of meat - I have a lot of male friends and when out and about with them I've noticed that they always leer at any female that walks past and comment on her figure/looks/whatever. It sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable. I sometimes feel like I'm visiting the zoo with them. I have also become increasingly aware of the way guys look at me and in the past, in seperate incidents, i've had guys trying to hit on me - something which I felt extremely uncomfortable with. Perhaps I am partly at fault for getting myself in that situation. But I left feeling like a piece of meat which guys just feel that they can come up to and treat as they please. However, when I have the hijab on, I find that guys will talk to me a lot more politely - probably because it helps to set out the boundary to them.
As for my opinion on the situation in France, I don't agree with what Jacques Chirac is proposing. I certainly do not think it's down to racism and I would be most surprised and saddened if people did play that card. Sometimes the race card is played too easily. If the West claims to offer freedom, then it will let people dress the way they choose. They are highly unlikey to find Muslim women welcoming this law with open arms, instead, they are likely to fuel more bad feeling. I feel that France is making an issue out of something that never was an issue. It worries me that a state feels it is ok to start dictating what people can wear - where are we going to draw the line?
As a Muslim, I certainly am not offended by Christians wearing crucifixes/crosses or Jews wearing skull caps. In some sense I respect them even more - because they are open and proud of what they believe in - and good on them I say! I just cannot understand what these so called liberals have a problem with and what they are so afraid of?
In some sense it appears that the French govt are saying the Muslim women that you are either French or Muslim, I dont see why they have to make that distinction? I am proud to say that I am both British and Muslim but moreover I'm a woman who has made a free choice about the way i dress and I appreciate the way that I can do that with ease in Britain.
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Re:
by hmmm :? on Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:16 am
[s]harmless loony wrote on 17:27, 18th Dec 2003:
The comment about the headscarves again shows people's very limited understanding of Islam. Muslims do not just follow the Quran, they also follow the Hadith (the saying of the prophet Muhammed - peace be upon him) and the Sunnah (the actions of the prophet). The concept of wearing headscarves originates from a Hadith not from the Quran.
That is very much disputed, for example:
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/509
no doubt google yields many other articles along the same lines though perhaps written more sensibly.
The comment about the headscarves again shows people's very limited understanding of Islam. Muslims do not just follow the Quran, they also follow the Hadith (the saying of the prophet Muhammed - peace be upon him) and the Sunnah (the actions of the prophet). The concept of wearing headscarves originates from a Hadith not from the Quran.
That is very much disputed, for example:
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/509
no doubt google yields many other articles along the same lines though perhaps written more sensibly.
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hmmm :?
Re:
by harmless loony on Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:01 am
I assure you it is in a hadith as recorded by Sahih Bukhari - the most important set of hadiths recorded and also the most trusted. The writer of the article has his facts wrong.
How can he deny that such a thing is in the hadith when a search on google for hijab+hadith yielded the hadith in question as its top finding?
And anyway, even if it had not been in the hadith, does hmmm? think it's ok for the state to dictate what a woman wears? Will Sikhs be banned from wearing turbans and forced to cut their hair short as that is also a religious sign? And will nuns be forced to remove their headcovering? Where is the line going to be drawn?
How can he deny that such a thing is in the hadith when a search on google for hijab+hadith yielded the hadith in question as its top finding?
And anyway, even if it had not been in the hadith, does hmmm? think it's ok for the state to dictate what a woman wears? Will Sikhs be banned from wearing turbans and forced to cut their hair short as that is also a religious sign? And will nuns be forced to remove their headcovering? Where is the line going to be drawn?
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Re:
by Buzzboy on Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:38 am
Well hopefully we can destroy religion completely and move on to a more enlightened way of life. Religion isn't good in my opinion it is divisive and promotes extremism. It allows people to idle in their own ignorance of the world around them, denying ultimate responsibility for their actions due to some misguided notion of a higher being.
France is a secular state, practice of religion has no place in the schools there, it goes against the fundamental concepts of French democracy. If people don't like it they should leave, if they don't know that then what are they doing their in the first place. Western culture should be respected as much as Islamic or any other, when in Rome... ie when I was in Malaysia my girlfriend had to wear a headscarf and long trousers to enter certain areas of the country, if they are allowed say what Westerners wear in their country why shouldn't the opposite be acceptable. The West should not lose its cultural identity in order to pander to other cultures in the name of inclusivism. If Islamic states and Christian states are allowed in the world then Secular states are allowed too.
Oh yeah and it is just in schools, not in the whole of France (now that would be wrong) so its children not adults which is a big political difference.
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France is a secular state, practice of religion has no place in the schools there, it goes against the fundamental concepts of French democracy. If people don't like it they should leave, if they don't know that then what are they doing their in the first place. Western culture should be respected as much as Islamic or any other, when in Rome... ie when I was in Malaysia my girlfriend had to wear a headscarf and long trousers to enter certain areas of the country, if they are allowed say what Westerners wear in their country why shouldn't the opposite be acceptable. The West should not lose its cultural identity in order to pander to other cultures in the name of inclusivism. If Islamic states and Christian states are allowed in the world then Secular states are allowed too.
Oh yeah and it is just in schools, not in the whole of France (now that would be wrong) so its children not adults which is a big political difference.
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come on now
by understand on Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:51 pm
to be perfectly honest, these requirements are essential for a good, secular society. Besides, such a concern only proves compassion for those who are attempting to destroy Western culture.
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understand
Re:
by hmmm on Sat Dec 20, 2003 2:10 pm
[s]harmless loony wrote on 07:01, 19th Dec 2003:
And anyway, even if it had not been in the hadith, does hmmm? think it's ok for the state to dictate what a woman wears? Will Sikhs be banned from wearing turbans and forced to cut their hair short as that is also a religious sign? And will nuns be forced to remove their headcovering?
See buzzboy's post. Nuns are adults and long hair is not purely a sign of religion. France is a secular state and the vast majority of the country agrees with the proposal.
As for wearing the hijab in the first place, many women have their facts wrong about that. Most older generations of families never wore that. The article given has facts that have never been disproven. The hajob is not a sign of religion it is nowadays more about fashion, it certainly isn't integral to the religion. And as some people on the bbc pointed out, women who wear it to feel less like a peice of meat feel like they have to alter themselves to fit in. It should be the men who alter their attitude towards women which is easily achievable without covering yourself up, thats just pandering to their non existant dominance. Plenty of women leer at men, some like it, some put up with it, and some tell the women to stop/grow up etc. Women should do the same. Just because many westerners of other religions or none do not cover up doesn't mean we all feel like meat, it's easy not to care about what men think apart from obviously the ones who matter - who wouldn't do it in the first place.
And anyway, even if it had not been in the hadith, does hmmm? think it's ok for the state to dictate what a woman wears? Will Sikhs be banned from wearing turbans and forced to cut their hair short as that is also a religious sign? And will nuns be forced to remove their headcovering?
See buzzboy's post. Nuns are adults and long hair is not purely a sign of religion. France is a secular state and the vast majority of the country agrees with the proposal.
As for wearing the hijab in the first place, many women have their facts wrong about that. Most older generations of families never wore that. The article given has facts that have never been disproven. The hajob is not a sign of religion it is nowadays more about fashion, it certainly isn't integral to the religion. And as some people on the bbc pointed out, women who wear it to feel less like a peice of meat feel like they have to alter themselves to fit in. It should be the men who alter their attitude towards women which is easily achievable without covering yourself up, thats just pandering to their non existant dominance. Plenty of women leer at men, some like it, some put up with it, and some tell the women to stop/grow up etc. Women should do the same. Just because many westerners of other religions or none do not cover up doesn't mean we all feel like meat, it's easy not to care about what men think apart from obviously the ones who matter - who wouldn't do it in the first place.
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hmmm
Re:
by EviLTwiN on Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:54 pm
my comment on all of this is that im still unsure, but am tending towards supporting the removal of all religious symbols.
2 things. One, people have made points about people having the right to free expression, and that they should be allowed to wear what they like, esp if its part of who they are. Well by that same arguement it would be wrong for us to stop someone who honestly believed in nazism wearing a nazi armband to school as they have a right to their own choice of dress.
However it would cause problems (tho different problems to the currently discussed situation) and we would stop them. If the government/people decide banning ALL religious symbols from schools is to the benefit of society then it is ok to do so, and isn't rascist or suppressing peoples freedom of expression.
Two, people will obviously take the main target of this to be islamic people. And it's unfortunate in the current climate that it just so happens to be, because the principal of banning all religious symbols from schools isn't racist at all. It's just a fact that if applied it will cause islamic people to feel hard done by, due to their forms of dress being intertwined with their religion/sexism. Its all down to whether you believe the actual agenda of the french government is to suppress obvious display of islamic belief, or whether they are simply doing whats right for their country from a religion/no religion point of view.
Also, thinking about the sexism thing, the wearing of the veils... i don't think that the veils being the traditional dress is sexist, even if it came from sexist origins. However any situation wear a woman has to wear one to avoid trouble/violence/social exclusion then it is.
I also think that a lot of the women who support the wearing of it have a slightly distorted point of view, much as a woman brought up in a family/society where the woman stays at home and cooks food may support that way of life for women because it's what she knows.
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2 things. One, people have made points about people having the right to free expression, and that they should be allowed to wear what they like, esp if its part of who they are. Well by that same arguement it would be wrong for us to stop someone who honestly believed in nazism wearing a nazi armband to school as they have a right to their own choice of dress.
However it would cause problems (tho different problems to the currently discussed situation) and we would stop them. If the government/people decide banning ALL religious symbols from schools is to the benefit of society then it is ok to do so, and isn't rascist or suppressing peoples freedom of expression.
Two, people will obviously take the main target of this to be islamic people. And it's unfortunate in the current climate that it just so happens to be, because the principal of banning all religious symbols from schools isn't racist at all. It's just a fact that if applied it will cause islamic people to feel hard done by, due to their forms of dress being intertwined with their religion/sexism. Its all down to whether you believe the actual agenda of the french government is to suppress obvious display of islamic belief, or whether they are simply doing whats right for their country from a religion/no religion point of view.
Also, thinking about the sexism thing, the wearing of the veils... i don't think that the veils being the traditional dress is sexist, even if it came from sexist origins. However any situation wear a woman has to wear one to avoid trouble/violence/social exclusion then it is.
I also think that a lot of the women who support the wearing of it have a slightly distorted point of view, much as a woman brought up in a family/society where the woman stays at home and cooks food may support that way of life for women because it's what she knows.
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Re:
by harmless loony on Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:52 am
What's so distorted about me not wanting want to show myself off to the world? Why does it mean that if a woman wants to cover her head she has a distorted view? What's wrong with a woman wanting to feel comfortable?
I've been brought up in a family where non of the women cover their heads - so it's not like Evil Twin suggests that I want to cover my head because it's the only thing I know. This is my own personal choice - I know men won't change, so in order to make myself feel comfortable I have to do something.
I've been brought up in a family where non of the women cover their heads - so it's not like Evil Twin suggests that I want to cover my head because it's the only thing I know. This is my own personal choice - I know men won't change, so in order to make myself feel comfortable I have to do something.
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Re:
by hmmm on Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:08 pm
[s]harmless loony wrote on 11:52, 21st Dec 2003:
I know men won't change, so in order to make myself feel comfortable I have to do something.
You have to change how you look? How is that any different from women who get huge breast implants to change how men view them? There is no difference it is exactly the same - these women change their appearance to get a different reaction from men.
Surely true strength is getting the reaction you want (whatever that may be) by the way you carry yourself and your personality. Plenty of women manage this without changing their appearance or falling back on "religion".
I know men won't change, so in order to make myself feel comfortable I have to do something.
You have to change how you look? How is that any different from women who get huge breast implants to change how men view them? There is no difference it is exactly the same - these women change their appearance to get a different reaction from men.
Surely true strength is getting the reaction you want (whatever that may be) by the way you carry yourself and your personality. Plenty of women manage this without changing their appearance or falling back on "religion".
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hmmm
Re:
by EviLTwiN on Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:40 pm
[s]harmless loony wrote on 11:52, 21st Dec 2003:
What's so distorted about me not wanting want to show myself off to the world? Why does it mean that if a woman wants to cover her head she has a distorted view? What's wrong with a woman wanting to feel comfortable?
um... if you read carefully you would see that i never said it means that if a woman wants to cover her head she has a distorted view.
what I actually said was that if a woman chose to cover her head because of her religion/culture creating a situation where she didn't have much choice then she may become conditioned to accept this as proper and ok, even if the head covering is down to sexism.
if a woman WANTS to cover her head she doesn't necessarily have a distorted view. but if the sole reasoning is because her culture makes it manditory at the risk of violence/social exculsion she may have a distorted view, and may claim she wants to wear it (in the same way western women would once have said their place was in the home, and those who worked were frowned apon). However in this case she isn't choosing to wear it. If she's wearing it because she likes the way it looks and not because she has to then thats perfectly cool, as is a woman who is a homemaker because she enjoys it. Unfortunately anyone who doesnt want to wear it isn't given that opportunity in most communities.
-->"I've been brought up in a family where non of the women cover their heads - so it's not like Evil Twin suggests that I want to cover my head because it's the only thing I know. This is my own personal choice - I know men won't change, so in order to make myself feel comfortable I have to do something."
like i said my comment clearly doesnt apply to you, since you wouldn't be frowned apon for not covering your head.
You got the wrong end of my point somehow... maybe read my post more carefully?
[hr]
IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif
http://www.the-leaving.com
What's so distorted about me not wanting want to show myself off to the world? Why does it mean that if a woman wants to cover her head she has a distorted view? What's wrong with a woman wanting to feel comfortable?
um... if you read carefully you would see that i never said it means that if a woman wants to cover her head she has a distorted view.
what I actually said was that if a woman chose to cover her head because of her religion/culture creating a situation where she didn't have much choice then she may become conditioned to accept this as proper and ok, even if the head covering is down to sexism.
if a woman WANTS to cover her head she doesn't necessarily have a distorted view. but if the sole reasoning is because her culture makes it manditory at the risk of violence/social exculsion she may have a distorted view, and may claim she wants to wear it (in the same way western women would once have said their place was in the home, and those who worked were frowned apon). However in this case she isn't choosing to wear it. If she's wearing it because she likes the way it looks and not because she has to then thats perfectly cool, as is a woman who is a homemaker because she enjoys it. Unfortunately anyone who doesnt want to wear it isn't given that opportunity in most communities.
-->"I've been brought up in a family where non of the women cover their heads - so it's not like Evil Twin suggests that I want to cover my head because it's the only thing I know. This is my own personal choice - I know men won't change, so in order to make myself feel comfortable I have to do something."
like i said my comment clearly doesnt apply to you, since you wouldn't be frowned apon for not covering your head.
You got the wrong end of my point somehow... maybe read my post more carefully?
[hr]
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Re:
by Paranoid on Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:16 am
Is this discussion actually developing into anything worthwhile discussing anymore?!? All this talk over distorted views and the nature of the hajib (sorry if spellings wrong), the original point was not of the suppression to WEAR a sign of religion, but the suppression of religion itself, and NOT wearing any such symbols...
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Re:
by thingy on Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:23 pm
[s]Paranoid wrote on 03:16, 22nd Dec 2003:
the original point was not of the suppression to WEAR a sign of religion, but the suppression of religion itself, and NOT wearing any such symbols...
And has been pointed out it is widely known that the hajib is NOT a sign of a religion. Whether you believe it came out in the 60s or if it came from other cultures (another popular theory) it is mostly worn for practicality in the heat of some countries, by oppressed women in some, and my misguided people in others.
therfore it has nothing to do with religion in the first place. And France is not suppressing religion, it is a secular state, and all its residents know this fine well.
the original point was not of the suppression to WEAR a sign of religion, but the suppression of religion itself, and NOT wearing any such symbols...
And has been pointed out it is widely known that the hajib is NOT a sign of a religion. Whether you believe it came out in the 60s or if it came from other cultures (another popular theory) it is mostly worn for practicality in the heat of some countries, by oppressed women in some, and my misguided people in others.
therfore it has nothing to do with religion in the first place. And France is not suppressing religion, it is a secular state, and all its residents know this fine well.
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thingy
Re:
by Al on Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:36 pm
I think a lot of you could do with learning what a secular state actually is before you start using the term. It is one where religion has no place at on official government level. It is not one where religious observances are forbidden. No government has the moral right to tell people what they may or may not wear. Particularly in such an example as this when the garment being proscribed is so closely identified - whether wrongly or rightly - with one particular religion.
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Re:
by Paranoid on Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:25 am
'Misguided' and 'suppressed'?!?! Please! That sounds a bit ignorant in itself! Couldn't u ever consider that some wear the hajib (and other religious symbols) as a sign of their true belief and thus wear it through choice? By misguided, that suggests that all religious people are living a lie...!
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Re:
by ... on Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:26 am
[s]Paranoid wrote on 02:25, 23rd Dec 2003:
'Misguided' and 'suppressed'?!?! Please! That sounds a bit ignorant in itself! Couldn't u ever consider that some wear the hajib (and other religious symbols) as a sign of their true belief and thus wear it through choice? By misguided, that suggests that all religious people are living a lie...!
Sigh, I said oppressed not suppressed. As has already been covered it isn't truly a sign of the religion - this is well known apart from (seemingly) in western countries where people have linked it far too much with being a "proper" devout person. That is why they are misguided, not because of their religion. It was quite clear really.
'Misguided' and 'suppressed'?!?! Please! That sounds a bit ignorant in itself! Couldn't u ever consider that some wear the hajib (and other religious symbols) as a sign of their true belief and thus wear it through choice? By misguided, that suggests that all religious people are living a lie...!
Sigh, I said oppressed not suppressed. As has already been covered it isn't truly a sign of the religion - this is well known apart from (seemingly) in western countries where people have linked it far too much with being a "proper" devout person. That is why they are misguided, not because of their religion. It was quite clear really.
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Re:
by TheKaow on Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:51 pm
And France is not suppressing religion, it is a secular state, and all its residents know this fine well.
What religion does not call for its followers to share their faith? The government should not dictate when, where, and how it is ok for these people to do so! (This is within reason of course as I am in no way condoning violence) France is suppressing the religious rights of its residents.
I want to know who exactly is taking offense at others' religious apparel? I am a Christian but I'm not taken aback at the sight of a peer wearing a hijab or a yamulke.
I am opposed to this new regulation in the fullest. I realise there are problems, however I don't believe suppressing people's rights and trying to force everyone into the same religious/secular mold is the answer.
I also don't buy into the "it's only children in school, not adults" logic. Adults are not the only ones who have beliefs.
What religion does not call for its followers to share their faith? The government should not dictate when, where, and how it is ok for these people to do so! (This is within reason of course as I am in no way condoning violence) France is suppressing the religious rights of its residents.
I want to know who exactly is taking offense at others' religious apparel? I am a Christian but I'm not taken aback at the sight of a peer wearing a hijab or a yamulke.
I am opposed to this new regulation in the fullest. I realise there are problems, however I don't believe suppressing people's rights and trying to force everyone into the same religious/secular mold is the answer.
I also don't buy into the "it's only children in school, not adults" logic. Adults are not the only ones who have beliefs.
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TheKaow
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