Top-up fees go through

[Mr Comedy]

The death knell of British education has been sounded - the 'ayes' to the Left have won by a majority of five.
And Scottish votes have been counted, by Labour manipulation of the system. Top-up fees do not apply in Scotland, yet they still have tricked their way through. Thank goodness Tim Yeo is still fighting.

[Pussycat]

Bloody hell that was close. Damn, damn, damn.

[Grahame-KnifeU-Case]

effing politicians,



[hr]
Grahame 'KnifeU' Case

Karaoke King

[The Cellar Bar]

Privatisation here we come - there'll be singing and dancing in College Gate tonight.

[exnihilo]

Alas I now live in Glasgow so I can't even register my protest by voting for a non-Labour candidate next time around, a donkey in a red rosette would win here. But the rebels who backed down in the last minutes, what sellouts. Thanks guys. Fuck the country, snouts in troughs.

[SiouxieSioux]

Bastards.

[hr] £3000! that's more than that last hooker I hired!
IMAGE:www.img7.photobucket.com/albums/v21/macphista/rotk_press_dance.jpg

[exnihilo]

The most annoying thing is the abstentions. In close votes, there's no such thing as an abstention, it helps one side and hinders the other. And, arguably, is an abrogation of your responsibility to your constituents.

[exnihilo]

You seem to be falling into the bizarre concept that Graduates and Taxpayers are too different groups. The argument runs that graduates earn more so can pay more, hence fees. However, graduates earn more, so they already pay more!!

You also are falling into this crazed notion which you have long cherished that there is no such think as society. Yes, there is. And educating people benefits all of us - therefore we should all pay. Slink back to the dark corridors of the Adam Smith Institute, Mr S, please.

[EviLTwiN]

my fears aren't having to pay, or not being able to live off other people... it's what it will do to universities and the types of people who can afford them, despite all the claims about grants etc.

[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif

http://www.the-leaving.com

[Ga]

O dear. The free for all, feck 'em all socity takes another step forward.

Lets hope that the Scottish parliment shows more spine than the labour back-benchers. However, I fear when the elephant rolls over...

[hr]If everything in life had a point, life would be pointless

[Pussycat]

Well at least it isn't set in stone yet, it still has a long way to go before the government can say with certainty that they have won this battle.

[Ashley]

[s]EviLTwiN wrote on 20:17, 27th Jan 2004:
my fears aren't having to pay, or not being able to live off other people... it's what it will do to universities and the types of people who can afford them, despite all the claims about grants etc.

I find it cause for concern too. However, as things stand, I also think that, in order to sort out this funding mess, what is not needed is simply more money paid at the expense of wealthy parents in the form of top-up fees but a more fundamental restructuring further down the chain. Without wishing to spout the Tory argument 'we need more electricians' ad infinitum; perhaps it is the time to hold up an academic degree from the 'older' universities with a newer, more vocational degree from a 'newer' institution.

What has been passed through Parliament tonight is a messy, confusing and potentially elitist compromise. It may not solve the funding crisis, may further widen the gap between universities and, in spite of their claims, leads the way forward for rapid further increases.

[harmless loony]

F*** Labour bastards - hope they get screwed over the in the next effin elections - tossers! I'm so bloody annoyed - they should name and shame all the spineless "rebels" that backed down - hope life screws them over with debt too - bastards.

[David Bean]

Why bother? The vote is a matter of public record anyway, it's not as though it's a secret who voted which way.

[hr]
"And all the people rejoiced, and said: 'God save the King! Long live the King! ...May the King live forever!'" - Handel, 'Zadok the Priest'

[Don]

What I fail to see the logic in, is that Labour have been all about getting more students into University from "poorer" backgrounds, and they seemed to have been succeeding, and then they go and shoot themselves in the foot and increase how muchthey have to pay so many will not be able to afford to go now!

Labour should not get the chance to have another term, especially with that arse Tony Blair leading them. I can 100% assure you, I will not be voting for them (or Tories) in the next General Election.

[standrean]

[s]Don wrote on 22:09, 27th Jan 2004:
Labour should not get the chance to have another term, especially with that arse Tony Blair leading them. I can 100% assure you, I will not be voting for them (or Tories) in the next General Election.



The fact is that tuition fees didn't stop people from poorer backgrounds going (after all, they didn't have to pay). And the new system won't stop people from poorer backgrounds going (after all, you don't have to pay anything unless you can afford it).

[Pussycat]

[s]standrean wrote on 22:15, 27th Jan 2004:
(after all, you don't have to pay anything unless you can afford it).


No you dont have to pay anything unless the powers that be *think* that your *parents* can afford it. But why should we worry about that, after all we've seen what a rip roaring success means testing has been. Or not.

If the amount of money they promise in grants to the poorest students (over £10,000!) is actually realised then the only students who will truly be in the position of having to choose their education based on fear of debt are those from the lower middle income families. And of course everyone will have to choose their degree based on this to.

[standrean]

[s]Pussycat wrote on 22:23, 27th Jan 2004:
And of course everyone will have to choose their degree based on this to.



Yes, that is a good thing! The cost of education compared with the benefits should be taken into account. If a degree is just for fun, that's fine. But plumbers without degrees shouldn't have to pay for it. As was pointed out in an earlier post, those who favour stealing their university funding from others are simply being selfish. It is theft, pure and simple.

[Pussycat]

[s]standrean wrote on 22:51, 27th Jan 2004:
Yes, that is a good thing! The cost of education compared with the benefits should be taken into account.

Which is fine for people like me doing a more vocational degree, but where does that leave people doing many of the Arts degrees? History, Classics and so on? I came with the intentions of doing so to get a good job, however many come to uni simply to further their knowledge and there is nothing wrong with that. Who is to say that a philosopher does not benefit society as much as a physicist?

And as for the plumber, I'm sure he won't be complaining when he needs a doctor, or a lawyer, or when the new software for his computer is produced, or when he needs his medicine made by chemistry graduates. Graduates benefit society and society includes graduates. And as someone rightly pointed out, many of these graduates do go on to make more than the average amount of money meaning they pay more back through taxes which pays for the plumbers kids to go to school, and his medicine through the NHS and so on.

[The Cellar Bar]

[s]standrean wrote on 22:23, 27th Jan 2004:
It is theft, pure and simple.


it's not theft - it's part of a Social Contract that has been in place for more than 6 decades now. It's no more theft than suggesting that parents with children at Primary and Secondary School are thieves because general taxation goes to educate their children. That too is a part of the same Social Contract that has been pretty much approved at every General Election since about 1950 when the voters had a choice as to whether or not they chose to continue with it. It was even in the "Labour" Party's last manifesto that there would be no introduction of top up fees.

And as to top up fees not deterring students from a poorer background. That's BS too because since, again, 1950, that percentage hasn't risen much above about 10% of the student population anyway. It's a minimal part of the student body and this won't do anything to improve it.

And as for plumbers! Don't pity them whatever you do. Plumbers around here charge an average of £40 + vat per hour. And you still land up having to finish the job yourself. All this really amounts to is greed on the part of those with enough influence to minimise their contribution to society. They don't want to contribute to it beyond what benefits themselves personally ........but they'll expect all the benefits of doctors, teachers, chemists, physicists. And the graduate teachers whom they will doubtless expect to educate their own spawn at private schools.

It's a shocking decision and a cop-out on the part of many Labour MP's. And it probably won't be long before Secondary and Primary education goes the same way. Especially if the cretins and clowns at the Adam Smith Institute have their way.