"Student Support Services and the Supnet Group, Support for Ethnic Minority Students and Staff (SEMS), are providing a forum for all students, from any country or culture whether from Ireland or Peru, India or Islington, to discuss issues that surround the diverse community of the University of St Andrews. Wendy Houldsworth, Student Support Services, has been tasked to assess the affects of the Race Relations Amendment Act 2002 on the University, from the students perspective. This piece of legislation has been designed to protect individuals from Black Minority Ethnic backgrounds from instances of harassment and discrimination. She would like to discover what the students think the University does well in this respect, and where there are areas for improvement.
Therefore, if there is a part of University life that you feel impacts on your religion or culture, and you would like to discover if changes can be made, come along to the forum and we will discuss your concerns or issues. Discussions can take place as part of a group, or in confidence if preferred and either with members of staff or with student volunteers from Supnet.
The group is to run on a drop in basis, and the first one is planned for Thursday 18th March between 1pm – 2pm in the Mansefield Building Library. Further dates for meetings in the future can be arranged at this event. Anyone is welcome to attend."
Exactly how can black students be discriminated against, if the marking system is anonymised, the admissions process supposedly considers neither racial, ethnic nor class background, and we are an educated bunch of people.
Another thing that irritates me is how it is all right to have posters advertising help for Asian and Black minorities to get into careers in the City, but not the other way round - there's no help for white people to get into a career in the city.
We should be blind to colour; it should not even be an issue at all. I would say that it is more telling when thses days it STILL has to be discussed at all - an issue can be made of it.
Nevertheless, I am open to correction.
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Re:
by munchingfoo on Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:06 pm
I have considered for sometime that something needs to be done about racial innequality. However the people who benefit from the current scemes are not the usualy the ones who need the help. A lot of the time white people are being discriminated against under these local initiatives, but until I can come up with a better way of dealing with the situation it'd be unfair for me to comment to criticaly.
[hr]Management: The art of writing like you know what you're talking about and making others believe it.
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[hr]Management: The art of writing like you know what you're talking about and making others believe it.
(munchingfoo comprehensive dictionary)
I'm not a large water-dwelling mammal Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve
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Re:
by quarterstaff on Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:51 pm
this seminar or whatever is discriminatory itself... by focusing only on black issues.
are there plans for other meetings for possible discrimination issues of other groups?
are there plans for other meetings for possible discrimination issues of other groups?
god damned mongolians!
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quarterstaff
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Re:
by quarterstaff on Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:42 pm
i went to a careers convention in the town hall last year...
and there was a stand for "asians in the city" or sometime, with an asian woman working there....
and i got very annoyed... i asked her about how she felt about assisting discrimination, etc...
turned out she actually agreed with me, but needed a job and this is the one her company gave her....
but still, it is wrong for companies to have ANY bias of race or religion....
it is too easy for non whites to lump all whites together, which is a very racist thing to do! to assume that because one is white one has had an advantageous upbringing, and that because one is not white, one has not been exposed to good education, etc... is a terrible terrible thing.
just because i *cannot* wear my ethnicity, if you will on my skin, doesnt mean i have not been subject to prejudice in my life.
and there was a stand for "asians in the city" or sometime, with an asian woman working there....
and i got very annoyed... i asked her about how she felt about assisting discrimination, etc...
turned out she actually agreed with me, but needed a job and this is the one her company gave her....
but still, it is wrong for companies to have ANY bias of race or religion....
it is too easy for non whites to lump all whites together, which is a very racist thing to do! to assume that because one is white one has had an advantageous upbringing, and that because one is not white, one has not been exposed to good education, etc... is a terrible terrible thing.
just because i *cannot* wear my ethnicity, if you will on my skin, doesnt mean i have not been subject to prejudice in my life.
god damned mongolians!
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quarterstaff
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Re:
by tintin on Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:54 pm
Exactly; it just shows the total irony of the situation when the race relations industry (it is an industry; those who work in it are hardly badly paid) has to create jobs. And nobody dare oppose the creation of those jobs, because then you risk being branded a racist/classist/predjudiced person.
Shame I'm not a black, one-legged lesbian, as these days, I am more likely than most to be discriminated against, being white, middle class, private school, university educated etc etc.
And I really dislike filling out my "ethnic origins" on job applications. What business is it of theirs anyway?
And on a slightly different note, there was one black Labour MP who stood up in PMQ during the Iraq debate to ask the Prime Minister whether he could guarantee the safety of the Holy Sites at Medina. Hmm. Positive coverage of minorities backfired there, I think.
Shame I'm not a black, one-legged lesbian, as these days, I am more likely than most to be discriminated against, being white, middle class, private school, university educated etc etc.
And I really dislike filling out my "ethnic origins" on job applications. What business is it of theirs anyway?
And on a slightly different note, there was one black Labour MP who stood up in PMQ during the Iraq debate to ask the Prime Minister whether he could guarantee the safety of the Holy Sites at Medina. Hmm. Positive coverage of minorities backfired there, I think.
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tintin
Re:
by quarterstaff on Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:00 pm
indeed, it is quite ridiculous hearing some of the attitudes many politicians seem to have about race.... a majority black/ asian/ muslim area ought to have a black/asian/muslim mp
NONSENSE! your race and creed not necessarily mean you are a good at representing any particular population....
there was a story in the papers last year about a middle aged, white scots bloke who went for a job as discimination counsellor at some institute, he had worked in that area for 25 years.... he didnt get the job....
a young black woman did... straight out of college - funny that, eh?
and having to state ethnicity on forms - what tosh! you shouldnt even have to mention your sex on a form! what relevence is it?! you can either do the job or you cannot!
the trick where i come from... is that they ask you what school you went to onjob forms, and thats how they find out which religion you are.... or that you'd been brought up in.
its a bitch.
NONSENSE! your race and creed not necessarily mean you are a good at representing any particular population....
there was a story in the papers last year about a middle aged, white scots bloke who went for a job as discimination counsellor at some institute, he had worked in that area for 25 years.... he didnt get the job....
a young black woman did... straight out of college - funny that, eh?
and having to state ethnicity on forms - what tosh! you shouldnt even have to mention your sex on a form! what relevence is it?! you can either do the job or you cannot!
the trick where i come from... is that they ask you what school you went to onjob forms, and thats how they find out which religion you are.... or that you'd been brought up in.
its a bitch.
god damned mongolians!
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quarterstaff
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Re:
by chittabeep on Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:04 pm
There are black students here?
But seriously, this is the kind of issue I deal with all the time at my uni and in my country (America). Affirmative Action, quotas, and extreme "anti-racism" campaigns inundate my society and only further the racial stasis. By stressing everyone's differences and disadvantages, we are only driving the different groups apart. But I guess since I'm white, that sentiment makes me a racist...
But seriously, this is the kind of issue I deal with all the time at my uni and in my country (America). Affirmative Action, quotas, and extreme "anti-racism" campaigns inundate my society and only further the racial stasis. By stressing everyone's differences and disadvantages, we are only driving the different groups apart. But I guess since I'm white, that sentiment makes me a racist...
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chittabeep
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Quotas
by Caia on Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:36 pm
The real problem is we are starting to act like the US.
True, one should be blind to colour, gender, background.
By saying they should be somany black students, somany asian ones and so on (or in the US, somany homosexual ones) we are getting into a quota system that only contributes into marginalising the "minorities".I personnaly think this is a rather racist way of thinking.
Quotas are a hypocritic way of finding a solution to intolerance.
In this day and age it is shameful racial issues still pollute society.
True, one should be blind to colour, gender, background.
By saying they should be somany black students, somany asian ones and so on (or in the US, somany homosexual ones) we are getting into a quota system that only contributes into marginalising the "minorities".I personnaly think this is a rather racist way of thinking.
Quotas are a hypocritic way of finding a solution to intolerance.
In this day and age it is shameful racial issues still pollute society.
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Caia
Re:
by ignorance=/=bliss on Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:50 am
[s]quarterstaff wrote on 14:51, 10th Mar 2004:
this seminar or whatever is discriminatory itself... by focusing only on black issues.
are there plans for other meetings for possible discrimination issues of other groups?
The fact that this is a 'black' issue as you unwittingly put it shows that there probably is a need for these services. Plus not all these services are just for Black and ethnic minority students but for students who are discriminated against on a grand scale. There are local services for students from the Fife area so that they can get in from summer school, if they just missed the entrance requirements. This is to give them the chance they deserve but wouldn't otherwise get due to an unfair ration of government funding. There are people who got in through this system and now are doing well / coping, if it wasn't for these services then they wouldn't have got in and would have had to go else where where they may not have got an education on par with that this university gives. It is easy to take an arrogant outside view when talking about services like these but they exist for a reason and without them this country would be worse off.
this seminar or whatever is discriminatory itself... by focusing only on black issues.
are there plans for other meetings for possible discrimination issues of other groups?
The fact that this is a 'black' issue as you unwittingly put it shows that there probably is a need for these services. Plus not all these services are just for Black and ethnic minority students but for students who are discriminated against on a grand scale. There are local services for students from the Fife area so that they can get in from summer school, if they just missed the entrance requirements. This is to give them the chance they deserve but wouldn't otherwise get due to an unfair ration of government funding. There are people who got in through this system and now are doing well / coping, if it wasn't for these services then they wouldn't have got in and would have had to go else where where they may not have got an education on par with that this university gives. It is easy to take an arrogant outside view when talking about services like these but they exist for a reason and without them this country would be worse off.
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ignorance=/=bliss
Re:
by EviLTwiN on Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:58 am
in general i agree with the first post, that we should all be able to forget about colour/religion etc.
The problem is that there are a lot of people out there who aren't outright racist, but even subconciously would prefer to give a job to a white guy than a black or asian guy.
Yes, us white skinned people can complain about us being descriminated against, but if you were black or asian you would still find it a lot harder on average to get a job than a white person.
Imagine a world where there was nodescrimination whatsoever... jobs would be awarded equally, based on talent and not race.
We don't live in that world, so as it is a lot more white people get jobs than in the ideal world.
Positive-descrimiation if thats what its called does readdress the balance.
You may feel annoyed that the job was given to someone else based on race, but for each instance of that I'm sure another job or promotion was given to someone because they were white.
It's not ideal, but I don't think there is any fair solution in the short term.
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The problem is that there are a lot of people out there who aren't outright racist, but even subconciously would prefer to give a job to a white guy than a black or asian guy.
Yes, us white skinned people can complain about us being descriminated against, but if you were black or asian you would still find it a lot harder on average to get a job than a white person.
Imagine a world where there was nodescrimination whatsoever... jobs would be awarded equally, based on talent and not race.
We don't live in that world, so as it is a lot more white people get jobs than in the ideal world.
Positive-descrimiation if thats what its called does readdress the balance.
You may feel annoyed that the job was given to someone else based on race, but for each instance of that I'm sure another job or promotion was given to someone because they were white.
It's not ideal, but I don't think there is any fair solution in the short term.
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http://www.the-leaving.com
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EviLTwiN
Re:
by enola48 on Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:29 pm
The forum wasn't just fro black students! If you read the ad carefully you will see that it is for anybody who feels they have been discriminated against in the university - even if you are white. It is not an attempt to create positive discrimination but just to remove discrimination which happens all too often in all aspects of life.
I agree that in this day and age we shouldn't have to talk about these things because in an ideal world there would be no inequality. But we are not living in that world. If anyone truely believes that there is no discrimination going on then they are sadly deluded.
Think about it for a minute - if you were discriminated against in any way even if it is just for your accent or where you went to school and even if it is by just one person then you would want to fix it. Consider now that many people spend there whole lives being discriminated against just because of the colour of their skin - something they have no control over!
I agree that in this day and age we shouldn't have to talk about these things because in an ideal world there would be no inequality. But we are not living in that world. If anyone truely believes that there is no discrimination going on then they are sadly deluded.
Think about it for a minute - if you were discriminated against in any way even if it is just for your accent or where you went to school and even if it is by just one person then you would want to fix it. Consider now that many people spend there whole lives being discriminated against just because of the colour of their skin - something they have no control over!
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enola48
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Re:
by Rapunzel on Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:57 pm
[s]enola48 wrote on 18:29, 18th Mar 2004:
The forum wasn't just fro black students! If you read the ad carefully you will see that it is for anybody who feels they have been discriminated against in the university - even if you are white. It is not an attempt to create positive discrimination but just to remove discrimination which happens all too often in all aspects of life.
I agree that in this day and age we shouldn't have to talk about these things because in an ideal world there would be no inequality. But we are not living in that world. If anyone truely believes that there is no discrimination going on then they are sadly deluded.
Think about it for a minute - if you were discriminated against in any way even if it is just for your accent or where you went to school and even if it is by just one person then you would want to fix it. Consider now that many people spend there whole lives being discriminated against just because of the colour of their skin - something they have no control over!
Here here! This is the first time I've read this post and I was going to say exactly the same thing. Discrimination is a (potential) issue for everybody, but it's unrealistic to pretend that it's an equal issue for everybody - some people get discriminated against for being poor, some people get discriminated against for being fat, and some people get discriminated against for being black. I went to a school that was fairly multiracial (but where isn't when compared to St Andrews?) but I wasn't at all aware of any racial discrimination. I think this is maybe because we were in a very closeted environment (a little like St Andrews), and because my school was both academically and economically elite. Please don't jump on what I just wrote, because I don't mean it the way it looks - what I mean is that we all knew we were at that school because of individual merit and (however idealistic this may seem) we all felt like equals, because we all felt equally deserving and we were all equally treated. However, since leaving school, my friends, sisters (who also attended my school) and I have gone to different universities, jobs etc, and discovered indiviually that the real world really isn't like my school was. I used to share somewhat of the opinion expressed earlier in this thread - that discrimination against anyone, black or white, was wrong. But now I'm much more aware of the discrimination faced on a day to day basis by some people. And yes, by that I do mean particularly non-white people. For example, a black friend of mine this week had a car pull up as he was walking down the street and had to continue walking as the car passengers yelled things such as "Nigger" and "Go back to the jungle" at him.
This forum was for any student who feels discriminated against or who has an opinion about discrimination, or the university's discrimination policies. But if most people could see outside their own white, able-bodied, intellectually able, economically comfortable existences and have a window into someone else's life within a different framework, I think they'd be surprised at how unequal the world still is.
Just because you feel like everyone has an equal opportunity to you doesn't make it so.
The forum wasn't just fro black students! If you read the ad carefully you will see that it is for anybody who feels they have been discriminated against in the university - even if you are white. It is not an attempt to create positive discrimination but just to remove discrimination which happens all too often in all aspects of life.
I agree that in this day and age we shouldn't have to talk about these things because in an ideal world there would be no inequality. But we are not living in that world. If anyone truely believes that there is no discrimination going on then they are sadly deluded.
Think about it for a minute - if you were discriminated against in any way even if it is just for your accent or where you went to school and even if it is by just one person then you would want to fix it. Consider now that many people spend there whole lives being discriminated against just because of the colour of their skin - something they have no control over!
Here here! This is the first time I've read this post and I was going to say exactly the same thing. Discrimination is a (potential) issue for everybody, but it's unrealistic to pretend that it's an equal issue for everybody - some people get discriminated against for being poor, some people get discriminated against for being fat, and some people get discriminated against for being black. I went to a school that was fairly multiracial (but where isn't when compared to St Andrews?) but I wasn't at all aware of any racial discrimination. I think this is maybe because we were in a very closeted environment (a little like St Andrews), and because my school was both academically and economically elite. Please don't jump on what I just wrote, because I don't mean it the way it looks - what I mean is that we all knew we were at that school because of individual merit and (however idealistic this may seem) we all felt like equals, because we all felt equally deserving and we were all equally treated. However, since leaving school, my friends, sisters (who also attended my school) and I have gone to different universities, jobs etc, and discovered indiviually that the real world really isn't like my school was. I used to share somewhat of the opinion expressed earlier in this thread - that discrimination against anyone, black or white, was wrong. But now I'm much more aware of the discrimination faced on a day to day basis by some people. And yes, by that I do mean particularly non-white people. For example, a black friend of mine this week had a car pull up as he was walking down the street and had to continue walking as the car passengers yelled things such as "Nigger" and "Go back to the jungle" at him.
This forum was for any student who feels discriminated against or who has an opinion about discrimination, or the university's discrimination policies. But if most people could see outside their own white, able-bodied, intellectually able, economically comfortable existences and have a window into someone else's life within a different framework, I think they'd be surprised at how unequal the world still is.
Just because you feel like everyone has an equal opportunity to you doesn't make it so.
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Rapunzel
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Re:
by Rapunzel on Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:13 pm
[s]Rapunzel wrote on 20:57, 18th Mar 2004:
For example, a black friend of mine this week had a car pull up as he was walking down the street and had to continue walking as the car passengers yelled things such as "Nigger" and "Go back to the jungle" at him.
I just realised that I didn't include in my original post that my friend was not at all surprised that this had happened. The two white friends he was with were appalled and wanted to confront the people in the car, but my friend was so used to it that he didn't bother. I think this demonstrates how much people underestimate how frequently instances of racial discrimination still occur, until you're placed in a situation like this yourself.
For example, a black friend of mine this week had a car pull up as he was walking down the street and had to continue walking as the car passengers yelled things such as "Nigger" and "Go back to the jungle" at him.
I just realised that I didn't include in my original post that my friend was not at all surprised that this had happened. The two white friends he was with were appalled and wanted to confront the people in the car, but my friend was so used to it that he didn't bother. I think this demonstrates how much people underestimate how frequently instances of racial discrimination still occur, until you're placed in a situation like this yourself.
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Re:
by harmless loony on Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:26 pm
I was asked by someone at the start of my first year here if it was ok to call me a paki cos it was in his dialect. At first I thought he was joking but then realised that he was being totally serious.
And that was just the first of many times i endured abuse in my first year - it's no wonder I almost transferred to Manchester over the summer.
The one thing I noticed between racial discrimination here and from my home town is that it is much more blatant and in your face, whereas at home it was a lot more subtle. I don't know why that is the case or why I came across so much in my first year - perhaps just my bad luck.
And that was just the first of many times i endured abuse in my first year - it's no wonder I almost transferred to Manchester over the summer.
The one thing I noticed between racial discrimination here and from my home town is that it is much more blatant and in your face, whereas at home it was a lot more subtle. I don't know why that is the case or why I came across so much in my first year - perhaps just my bad luck.
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Re:
by Fionnlagh on Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:21 am
While I'm firmly against the principle of affirmative action, I think it would be perhaps a bit naieve to believe that whites such as myself get a raw deal when considering society as a whole. Yes, we may suffer religious and racial abuse (as I have recently) or discrimination, but I don't think the "balance" of discrimination has turned against us, if I can call it that.
Having said all that, I am made uncomfortable about any opportunities targeted at specific creeds, and I feel they may even antagonise the underlying issues more than they help.
Having said all that, I am made uncomfortable about any opportunities targeted at specific creeds, and I feel they may even antagonise the underlying issues more than they help.
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Fionnlagh
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Re:
by ColourBlind on Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:29 pm
[s]tintin wrote on 13:35, 10th Mar 2004:
"Student Support Services and the Supnet Group, Support for Ethnic Minority Students and Staff (SEMS), are providing a forum for all students, from any country or culture whether from Ireland or Peru, India or Islington, to discuss issues that surround the diverse community of the University of St Andrews. Wendy Houldsworth, Student Support Services, has been tasked to assess the affects of the Race Relations Amendment Act 2002 on the University, from the students perspective. This piece of legislation has been designed to protect individuals from Black Minority Ethnic backgrounds from instances of harassment and discrimination. She would like to discover what the students think the University does well in this respect, and where there are areas for improvement.
Therefore, if there is a part of University life that you feel impacts on your religion or culture, and you would like to discover if changes can be made, come along to the forum and we will discuss your concerns or issues. Discussions can take place as part of a group, or in confidence if preferred and either with members of staff or with student volunteers from Supnet.
The group is to run on a drop in basis, and the first one is planned for Thursday 18th March between 1pm 2pm in the Mansefield Building Library. Further dates for meetings in the future can be arranged at this event. Anyone is welcome to attend."
Exactly how can black students be discriminated against, if the marking system is anonymised, the admissions process supposedly considers neither racial, ethnic nor class background, and we are an educated bunch of people.
Another thing that irritates me is how it is all right to have posters advertising help for Asian and Black minorities to get into careers in the City, but not the other way round - there's no help for white people to get into a career in the city.
We should be blind to colour; it should not even be an issue at all. I would say that it is more telling when thses days it STILL has to be discussed at all - an issue can be made of it.
Nevertheless, I am open to correction.
From your message and from being near you, I have observed that you aren't exactly 'blind to colour'. Ta ta!
"Student Support Services and the Supnet Group, Support for Ethnic Minority Students and Staff (SEMS), are providing a forum for all students, from any country or culture whether from Ireland or Peru, India or Islington, to discuss issues that surround the diverse community of the University of St Andrews. Wendy Houldsworth, Student Support Services, has been tasked to assess the affects of the Race Relations Amendment Act 2002 on the University, from the students perspective. This piece of legislation has been designed to protect individuals from Black Minority Ethnic backgrounds from instances of harassment and discrimination. She would like to discover what the students think the University does well in this respect, and where there are areas for improvement.
Therefore, if there is a part of University life that you feel impacts on your religion or culture, and you would like to discover if changes can be made, come along to the forum and we will discuss your concerns or issues. Discussions can take place as part of a group, or in confidence if preferred and either with members of staff or with student volunteers from Supnet.
The group is to run on a drop in basis, and the first one is planned for Thursday 18th March between 1pm 2pm in the Mansefield Building Library. Further dates for meetings in the future can be arranged at this event. Anyone is welcome to attend."
Exactly how can black students be discriminated against, if the marking system is anonymised, the admissions process supposedly considers neither racial, ethnic nor class background, and we are an educated bunch of people.
Another thing that irritates me is how it is all right to have posters advertising help for Asian and Black minorities to get into careers in the City, but not the other way round - there's no help for white people to get into a career in the city.
We should be blind to colour; it should not even be an issue at all. I would say that it is more telling when thses days it STILL has to be discussed at all - an issue can be made of it.
Nevertheless, I am open to correction.
From your message and from being near you, I have observed that you aren't exactly 'blind to colour'. Ta ta!
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ColourBlind
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