Funding wasted on 'Third Class' Universities

[tintin]

Finally, someone has spoken out!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ortal.html


And a link from that story to another about Luton University

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... loot08.xml

[mackie]

And what exactly defines a so called 'third class' university? Is Stirling for example a 3rd class uni? Or perhaps Dundee? And where do 2nd class unis fit into this? Geez, if it aint bad enough placing class labels on people, then the press and people like you have to put labels on institutions as well.

[Manic23]

[s]mackie wrote on 14:39, 12th Mar 2004:
And what exactly defines a so called 'third class' university? Is Stirling for example a 3rd class uni? Or perhaps Dundee? And where do 2nd class unis fit into this? Geez, if it aint bad enough placing class labels on people, then the press and people like you have to put labels on institutions as well.



well said. Everyone has the right to some form of higher level education. Though it is a bit shit that you can still get a degree even if you fail your first two years.

[tintin]

I would not call Dundee a third-class University. I would call Abertay one though.

It is not a RIGHT to get an education at Tertiary level, especially in a University. People have to face up to the fact that they may just not be good enough to get in.

[Pussycat]

And what defines what class a university is? After all St Andrews is pretty crap in more than a few of it's courses when it comes to leauge tables, just as some of the universities that are "crap" are better in some of those same courses.

I still don't see the point in aiming to get 50% of the population through university. I fully suppport making them accessible to all and for people not to be discriminated against because of their background or finances but at the end of the day acceptance should still be based on qualifications. It's not like it's hard to get into any Scottish university anyway which might be partly explain why over 50% of Scots do go through university and then loads have to leave the country to find a job.

[Kitch]

[s]mackie wrote on 14:39, 12th Mar 2004:
And what exactly defines a so called 'third class' university? Is Stirling for example a 3rd class uni? Or perhaps Dundee? And where do 2nd class unis fit into this? Geez, if it aint bad enough placing class labels on people, then the press and people like you have to put labels on institutions as well.


Ummm the term third class relates to their performance and not social standing - like a first class degree etc.

[Pilmour Boy]

It is because of issues like this that I think that what's needed is a funding system that rewards universities for how well they do- not how many boxes they can tick on a funding councils forms.

[hr]Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[mackie]

Ummm the term third class relates to their performance and not social standing - like a first class degree etc.
[/i]

I know that! I aint stupid.

[Nature's Metropolis]

I wouldn't say the funding's wasted on so called 'third class' universities like Luton university as long as it's helping people to extend their knowledge, to whatever level that might be. I agree that it's worrying that it's so easy to get into third year: a degree has to count for something, but some are inevitably going to be of a higher level than others. 'Ideally' funding would be equal regardless of standard since everyone should 'ideally' be pushed to achieve the best they can. But obviously the higher the level of the degree, the more advantageous it is to the economy and the academic reputation of Britain internationally etc etc. So perhaps we're back to square one. Unless unis are funded on the basis of the research that comes out of them or the reputation of their alumnii, although I admit this would be tricky to quantify...

[the boy jones]

To the person who said Abertay is a third class University, no you are wrong. Although Abertay may be weak in some areas, it has its strengths just like everywhere else, and it has the best computer game programming and computer 3D-modelling courses in the country, and for these courses many students choose Abertay over "traditional" Universities such as St Andrews.
This is the same for Heriot Watt University which is the number 1 in Scotland for engineering, although it is considered a lower class university by some people.

[Mr Comedy]

I wholeheartedly concur. Rather than wasting money on colleges who want to be a university, we should invest in work based learning and apprenticeships as a more economically viable way of higher education.

[amac]

[s]the boy jones wrote on 18:25, 12th Mar 2004:
To the person who said Abertay is a third class University, no you are wrong. Although Abertay may be weak in some areas, it has its strengths just like everywhere else, and it has the best computer game programming and computer 3D-modelling courses in the country, and for these courses many students choose Abertay over "traditional" Universities such as St Andrews.
This is the same for Heriot Watt University which is the number 1 in Scotland for engineering, although it is considered a lower class university by some people.


I totally agree with you. Abertay may not cater for people wanting to do more traditional courses but it has a good reputation for more modern courses such as Computer Science. I don't know whether to call it ignorance or stupidity on your (tintin) part for not recognising this. Either way you come across as a snob.

Edit: bad grammar

[Manic23]

[s]tintin wrote on 15:43, 12th Mar 2004:
I would not call Dundee a third-class University. I would call Abertay one though.

People have to face up to the fact that they may just not be good enough to get in.




"Good"? I sincerely hope you mean intelligent, as the former implies that you are an elitist snob. And who are you to decide that not everyone has a right to higher education? Whilst I dont agree with some of the exams policies like those of Luton, I think it is wonderful that there are unis out there that cater for all spheres of intelligence. No one in this world is better than anyone else, and those who believe otherwise are pathetic.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Surely the issue here is the fact that a lot of polytechs became Universities and as such are still struggling to improve in areas which they had until a few years ago, never taught?

[Joesta]

[s]amac wrote on 19:17, 12th Mar 2004:[i]
Well, it's good at certain specialist areas of computer science. I knew somebody who went to Abertay to do the computer games course, and it is taught well and is officially recognised by many major computer games companies including Nintendo and Sony. Hence it serves it's purpose.

I think that it is yet another case of ignorance mixed in with a lot of arrogance on tintin's part which has made him group many different universities as 'third class'.

As long as these 'third class' universities are accessible, to all who get the grades, and teach to a certain standard- which if they didn't, would not be allowed to continue offering degrees- then they should be allowed to stay. What Sir Richard Sykes has done is to assume that only new universities can be weak, which is not the case, as pointed out earlier many established universities have their weak points, such as Oxford for many sciences, but due to their fortune their good reputation preceeds those weaknesses, working in their favour. If these universities are not given funding then they will never be able to build up the good reputation that they otherwise could have; take York University for example which recently celebrated it's 40th year aniversary yet is seen as a reputable university and came #7 in the Times university list, if they were given less funding whilst starting up because the views of the arrogant minority, then it would not even be in the Times university guide.

These universities are not here to rape us of resources, lower the standard of education for all, or even act as a short-term solution; they exist to educate and preserve, if not increase, the edge that Britain has, academically, worldwide.

[hr]
My favorite animal is steak.
Fran Lebowitz (1950 - )

[Joesta]

[s]amac wrote on 19:17, 12th Mar 2004:
[s]the boy jones wrote on 18:25, 12th Mar 2004:[i]
To the person who said Abertay is a third class University, no you are wrong. Although Abertay may be weak in some areas, it has its strengths just like everywhere else, and it has the best computer game programming and computer 3D-modelling courses in the country, and for these courses many students choose Abertay over "traditional" Universities such as St Andrews.
This is the same for Heriot Watt University which is the number 1 in Scotland for engineering, although it is considered a lower class university by some people.


I totally agree with you. Abertay may not cater for people wanting to do more traditional courses but it has a good reputation for more modern courses such as Computer Science. I don't know whether to call it ignorance or stupidity on your (tintin) part for not recognising this. Either way you come across as a snob.

Edit: bad grammar
[/i]



Well, it's good at certain specialist areas of computer science. I knew somebody who went to Abertay to do the computer games course, and it is taught well and is officially recognised by many major computer games companies including Nintendo and Sony. Hence it serves it's purpose.

I think that it is yet another case of ignorance mixed in with a lot of arrogance on tintin's part which has made him group many different universities as 'third class'.

As long as these 'third class' universities are accessible, to all who get the grades, and teach to a certain standard- which if they didn't, would not be allowed to continue offering degrees- then they should be allowed to stay. What Sir Richard Sykes has done is to assume that only new universities can be weak, which is not the case, as pointed out earlier, many established universities have their weak points, such as Oxford for many science subjects, but to their fortune their good reputation preceeds these weaknesses, working in their favour.

If the new universities are not given funding then they will never be able to build up the good reputation that they otherwise could have; take York University for example which recently celebrated it's 40th year aniversary yet is seen as a reputable university and came #7 in the Times university list, if they were given less funding whilst starting up because of the views of an arrogant minority, then it would not even be in the Times university guide.

These universities are not here to rape us of resources, lower the standard of education for all, or even act as a short-term solution; they exist to educate and preserve, if not increase, the edge that Britain has, academically, worldwide.

[hr]
My favorite animal is steak.
Fran Lebowitz (1950 - )


[hr]
Words without actions are the assassins of idealism.
Herbert Hoover (1874 - 1964)

[tintin]

The problem is that for years, trendy educationalists have tried to convince us that all children are academically equal. Therefore all schools are equal and therefore all Universities are equal.

I make no bones about being an elitist academic snob. I am proud to be at St. Andrews; that I worked my way here the same as everyone else. I came here because of the reputation and the sheer inspired privilege of studying in a place where scholars have been coming for hundreds of years.

I do not see why people who are not academically able [I'm not amazing at my studies; I too have to work hard to keep up, but that's a condition of being here] should come to places like St. Andrews. The whole thing about a University is that it is where people study. It isn't really about constant partying and drinking away your four years - sure it goes on, and I'm no saint - but to study. And to do some of the subjects on offer here requires a certain degree of intelligence.

It annoys me intensely being told that my "uni" is on a par with places like Luton; it devalues the achievements of people who worked to get here.

The problem is possibly that I don't believe in a target of 50% of young people going to University, which probably skews my viewpoint. But I don't see why money which could be bettering our facilities and staff numbers (one of my Fourth year courses started in week 4 - there were no staff available due to lack of funding) should be spent on places like Luton and those third class universities which try and sell you their courses based on the nightlife.

And what also grates is that when I enter the job market, and am in competitiopn with someone else, we both have a degree. Yet to get into that degree course at Abertay requires "GCSE passes in 5 subjects to include 2 GCE A levels or equivalent". I think it is a little more rigourous to get in here, don't you? People get these marks and then wonder why they have to drop out a couple of years down the line as it was too academically difficult for them. I wonder.

Nobody could possibly be serious if they believe that Abertay is a centre of excellence overall, but I do know that it has very good departments of ELT, and the Computing as you said. What it comes down to is that those are Abertay's specialities: they should be concentrating on those.

[exnihilo]

It's all okay though, because there's a plan. Money will be spent on bringing the third rate universities up to being second rate (by ignoring the things they're already good at and pumping money into stuff they needn't be teaching), while at the same time neglecting and diluting the ones that are first rate, thus dragging them down to being second rate. And, thus, will equality be achieved - we'll all be mediocre, but it's okay too because we'll all be too poorly educated to know the difference. It's genius really. After all, who needs experts when there's the important point of everyone being equal to be addressed. Actively equal, that is, not simply given equal opportunities to excel if possessed of equal ability. Not that I see the end as being nigh...

[EviLTwiN]

it's completely mad to try to send 50% of people to university. University is meant to be a specialised education for the intellectual. People of all colours, creeds and social standing should be judged equally on academic merit.
But as soon as standards are lowered so that such a large amount can attend then you have defeated the purpose of having unis, and have seriously weakened the best universities in the country who are meant to be producing the academic elite


and to Manic23: everyone doesnt have a right to a higher education, although that is what seems to be politically correct. What you should say is that everyone who it academically good enough to enter higher education has a right to it.

And yes Abertay has a world class computer gaming dept., but it's really just a college with a single world class computer gaming dept. How good a university is doesn't depend on what it's best subject is. A far better judgement is based on what it's worst subject is (and how many bad ones there are!). On that basis you can see that Abertay is definately a third rate Uni.

[hr]IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwintrooper.jpg IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinsaint.gif IMAGE:www.red-llama.com/avatars/eviltwinold.gif

http://www.the-leaving.com

[amac]

[s]tintin wrote on 10:10, 13th Mar 2004:
The problem is that for years, trendy educationalists have tried to convince us that all children are academically equal. Therefore all schools are equal and therefore all Universities are equal.


They're not trying to convince anyone that all children are academically equal. They are trying to give every child the chance at an education no matter what their economic or social circumstances are.

And to say that because universities have equal funding they have equal status is absurd. It almost makes me wonder how the person who said it is intelligent enough to be at any university.

If an employer has two applicants for a job, who both have the same degree from different uni's, they would have some opinion about which is the better course, which is harder to get into etc. So a degree from St. Andrews would probably be more respected than one from Abertay.

So degrees aren't 'equal' in like you say but it would be wrong to give uni's such as Abertay less funding.

Children from poorer areas do less well in school than others, but that doesn't mean they are less intelligent. By giving people a chance to further themselves and achieve a higher standard of living not only are they benefiting but also society as a whole.