Unbelievable

[tintin]

Too shocking for words.

[Cain]

And the logic that if you are known to like sex, then there is no way that any form of sexual assault can be counted as rape is beyond me.

especially one as foul as this.

or the idea that she feigned unconsciousness while all of that was going on. considering the damage done, making yourself not respond to any of those stimuli would be physically impossible.

I would advise that the faint hearted don't read that link.

like the reporter said, those 27 years they were offered must be looking pretty good right now.

[hr]
I will diminish, and go into fourth year, and remain Cain

[franklyscallop]

That is the most disgusting thing I've ever read;I felt sick that they could do that to someone. I can only imagine what that girl is feeling; she must want to murder them.

[Pussycat]

F*ck sake. An extreme case of idiotic and insensitive lawyers I know, but people still wonder why such a tiny percentage of rape victims go through court to get justice, and why an even tinier percent actually get that justice?

Why on earth are lawyers even allowed to do that, to talk like that? Isn't it contempt of court or something? Especially when referring to a minor and obvious victim.

It's disgusting and beyond words really

[Cain]

i've been going through the OC weekly archives.

Defence claim - "the alleged victim ... actually directed the sexual encounter with the defendants while she "feigned" unconsciousness"

how can you direct something and feign unconsciousness at the same time?

i'm not sure who makes me angrier, Haidl et al, or the defense for Haidl et al.

[hr]
I will diminish, and go into fourth year, and remain Cain

[munchingfoo]

I think you are wrong to comment on such a crime with only partial knowledge of it. It's people like you who get innocent people sent to jail. If everyone who went before a court was guilty then there would be no need to have courts. IOnnocent until proven guilty is there for a very good reason.

Don't get me wrong, the chances are that these guys were commiting a crime is quite high, but to say it is disgusting and outragous goes against every law set up to protect innocent people from injustice.

Wait until the gfinal verdit is reached then it would be more appropriate to comment on the actions of the boys and their representation.

[Cain]

[s]munchingfoo wrote on 13:18, 16th May 2004:
Wait until the gfinal verdit is reached then it would be more appropriate to comment on the actions of the boys and their representation.


regardless of the final outcome, i have major problems with the way that their defence is handling it.

I don't agree with the idea that "if you like sex then no form of sex that you ever have can be classed as rape, regardless"

or

"if you consent to having sex with one guy, and express an interest in sex with multiple partners then you will obviously not object when something like that happens, regardless."

or

"if you enjoy it, then you can't have been raped"

these ideas just seem so... backward

[hr]
I will diminish, and go into fourth year, and remain Cain

[munchingfoo]

A person has the right to defend them selves in whatever way they see fit. Remember, the general public will have already decided that these boys are guilty due to the nature of the crime accused. If you have a problem with the way the lawers handle the case then the chances are, so will the jury, and they will be found guilty. In the end however, if the jury feel the defendants have a strong case then your opinion is meaningless, especially as you don't know all the facts. Thats the way the legal system works, and has done for ages.

[Rennie]

It's obvious that the defence are trying everything they possibly can to discredit the girl as any jury, even in America, would convict them solely on the video evidence.

Either the defence hope that the girl will back out and not testify, or they are desperately trying to change the jury's views. The fact that one of the boys father's is a high ranking police official also does not surprise me.

This kind of position that the defence lawyers have chosen I feel would not be acceptable in British law - the judge would stop the trial and order the defence team to leave the courtroom under contempt of court for swearing and making libellous comments, and stating that the victim was 'a fucking whore' outside the court would probably get the defence lawyers arrested under public dencency laws, as well as swaying media interest.

[Rennie]

Munchingfoo, you are right to a degree reagrding how a defence lawyer can conduct themselves - it is their job to either lower the sentence, or get the defendant(s) accquitted. However, in this particular case, the video evidence that has been played to the jury is most certainly going to get these defendants found guilty, and as it is extermely unlikely that jurors in that case will read the sinner, I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that they are guilty in my opinion.

I also find it very interesting how the trial is likely to be affected by the position the media takes on it - whether they support the defendants or the victim will be a major issue - and this should not be the case.

[Anon.]

The victim does sound like a bit of a slag, though. But of course, that's no excuse for raping her.

[AR]

I am actually horrified after reading this. And the defence is trying to say that because the girl was promiscuous before that therefore she must have asked to be raped? There is no way that a person could be as hurt as they say she was and have let those things continue. sick sick sick

[Slash wannabe]

WTF??

"How many teenagers have a shaved vagina and anus? I don’t know, but I can think of a reason. Sex! She’s a sexual person!"

I believe that this is being said to jurors for fucks sake. It doesnt excuse anything. This point of defence is so bad its laughable.

[hr]IMAGE:www.queensofthestoneage.com/images/logo_qotsa.gif

[Prophet Tenebrae]

I'm relatively sure that munchingfoo's chops will be busted in a relatively short amount of time...

/Prophet Powers

[katiem]

[s]munchingfoo wrote on 13:18, 16th May 2004:
I think you are wrong to comment on such a crime with only partial knowledge of it. It's people like you who get innocent people sent to jail. If everyone who went before a court was guilty then there would be no need to have courts. IOnnocent until proven guilty is there for a very good reason.


The reason why this story is so disgusting is because of the absolute torture the victim is being put through, not because of an assumption of guilt on the part of these boys. I think we can comment on the fact that the way the court is treating her is disgusting without knowing all the facts. Whether or not the boys really did this does not change that she should not be treated in this way.

I don't care if she had sex with 35 men a day everyday before this incident happened. It is irrelevant. No one deserves to be victimized the way she allegedly was. In many ways, the rape she experienced in real life is nothing compared to the way she is being fucked in this court. THAT is why this story is so disgusting. No wonder so many women never report their rape...how the hell are you supposed to be strong enough to endure the legal system after you have been made so fragile from an attack like this one? The precedence this sets is extremely upsetting. This story absolutely made me sob.

[Yemminie]

[s]munchingfoo wrote on 13:18, 16th May 2004:
It's people like you who get innocent people sent to jail.

Don't get me wrong, the chances are that these guys were commiting a crime is quite high, but to say it is disgusting and outragous goes against every law set up to protect innocent people from injustice.

Wait until the gfinal verdit is reached then it would be more appropriate to comment on the actions of the boys and their representation.


The chances that they were commiting a crime is quite high?! Don't you mean that they were committing a crime, beyond any shadow of a doubt? It is illegal in California to have sex with an unconscious person. There is documented, video proof that the girl was unconscious. Regardless of the perversity of their actions, THAT right there is enough to convict them of a crime.

And saying that it is disgusting and outrageous in no way conflicts with laws set up to protect innocent people from injustice. Throwing them in jail without a trial would be in conflict with such laws, but to react with outrage and horror doesn't wrong the bastards at all. And, frankly, I would react with horror and disbelief to a gang bang of such a nature even if it was conducted completely legally and with full consent of the woman. I'm all for sexual freedom, whatever floats your boat (within reason - obviously, this does not include such things as pedophilia), etc, but some things turn my stomach. I don't have to wait until they are convicted of a crime to say that 3 guys having sex with - *raping* - an unconscious 16 year old, causing her considerable injury in the process, is reprehensible.

And Anon, what does the victim sounding 'like a bit of a slag' have to do with anything? I know you followed that by saying that it was wrong to rape her, but I fail to see the point of the first part of your comment. Rape is rape, sex with an unconscious person is illegal, and I don't care if she had sex with 36 people, a pool stick, and a juice can every day. What they did to her would still be wrong.

[munchingfoo]

I think you guys are completely missing the point.

Firstly, the evidence is not first hand, it's not even second hand, it's third hand evidence. Usually not recognized in most situations. Yes there are some quotes, but for the most part it is the writers opinion and observations.

Secondly. No matter how it looks it doesn't mean it is the case. Just take the photos in the mirror(??) recently. There is a fetish for almost aany taste on the net, perhaps(And I say perhaps!!!!!) the girl like to pretend to be unconsious. Not very likely, however even a small chance of putting someone in jail wrongfully is unacceptable!

I will say now YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG TO SAY THESE PEOPLE ARE GUILTY without seeing the tape yourself, and hearing all other evidence personally. This is a serious crime and should be treated and punished as such, but not before the boys are found guilty. To do so would be a worse crrime. Without prper justice there can be no proper society.

Think about it. Emotions can take no part in justice, only facts, andd although you feel strongly about this, the facts are not substantial enough for you to say GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY.

I am not arguing that these guys diddn't do wrong, only that it is wrong to say they didd when you know only the information from that biased article(I mean biased as in one side, it's not an insult or anything, just a point of note).

If they are found guilty I'd shoot them myself, but until that point they should be treated with as much respect and rights as anyone else.


[hr]Management: The art of writing like you know what you're talking about and making others believe it.

(munchingfoo comprehensive dictionary)

My website:
http://aa.domaindlx.com/munchingfoo/

[munchingfoo]

Oh yes, andd please infer from my previous post that calling them bastards is outragous. Again, anyone could accuse me of rape, and people would call me a bastard. My life would be tarnished, even if I was rrightfully proven not guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[hr]Management: The art of writing like you know what you're talking about and making others believe it.

(munchingfoo comprehensive dictionary)

My website:
http://aa.domaindlx.com/munchingfoo/

[Al]

It is often the case that when defendants have no credible defence to offer then the defence lawyers will resort to innuendo and character assassination. And as the defendants in this case seem to have no defence whatsoever, their lawyers are forced into the vile tactics they have shown. It seems to me to be an awfully risky strategy. They run the risk of creating even more sympathy for the victim and alienating the jury still further.

[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.

[katiem]

[s]munchingfoo wrote on 17:06, 16th May 2004:
Oh yes, andd please infer from my previous post that calling them bastards is outragous. Again, anyone could accuse me of rape, and people would call me a bastard. My life would be tarnished, even if I was rrightfully proven not guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[hr]Management: The art of writing like you know what you're talking about and making others believe it.

(munchingfoo comprehensive dictionary)

My website:
http://aa.domaindlx.com/munchingfoo/


Actually, if anyone missed the point, it was you. The reason why I am upset is the fact that this girl is being absolutely fucked over in court. No one should have to experience the emotion trauma she is IN COURT. This is the problem.