A University with Huge Debts, but...

[christian_harris]

Who passes up on some revenue for rooms which never get used...

Dear Mr Harris,
Thank you for your enquiry regarding facilities at the University of St Andrews.Having noted all your requirements and assessed these fully I regret that the University is unable to approve the use of its premises for gaming.If it were to be of any assistance to you we will be pleased to pass your enquiry to the local tourist board/convention bureau who would be pleased to assist you in securing premises and accommodation.
I hope that your competition goes well.
Yours sincerely,
Roger Smith.

Seems rather foolish to me...

[Cain]

i assume that you were enquiring about hiring out some rooms.

schoolboy error.

send a letter back, offering to buy them, with an option for the university to buy them back for treble their cost in three years time.

[hr]
I will diminish, and go into fourth year, and remain Cain

[iohannes]

Er...not so stupid. Gaming licences are hard and expensive to come by. UK gaming laws aren't the yes/no they are in the US. They are a difficult and tricky legal area, especially with the recent deregulation in the law, which complicates matters. Understandably the university doesn't want to have to worry about whether they are breaking the law or not.

[hr]That is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

[christian_harris]

I have given them proof that they do not require a gaming license for the event I propose to run, so that blows your point right out of the water I'm afraid.

[Guest]

I doubt poker comes high up their list of priorities.

[christian_harris]

Is that what I said?!... No

What I said was: why pass up the chance of a few grand hiring a room out?

[Sir Tufton Bufton]

[s]christian_harris wrote on 11:49, 20th Aug 2004:
Is that what I said?!... No

What I said was: why pass up the chance of a few grand hiring a room out?


Hmmm. I guess income is always tempting. But this does seem kinda far removed from what a university would consider its core mission....

A couple of other things: describing St A's debt as 'huge' is correct to an extent: the accounts show around 25M ukp of it. But remember that this is planned, long-term debt as opposed to sudden we-have-a-problem debt.

Also, gaming licenses are far from a simple yes-no thing in most of the US. They are rather complictated to obtain.

[General Porkov]

Oh well, someone's answered one of my questions about the University (its debt situation).

I was surprised that the University's planned debts are only about £25M (that's about a third of their annual income, I think). How much are the rest of their debts, then ? (the unplanned, non long-term stuff) [Maybe their total debts (everything included is nearer to £50+M)

When I was at the University as a PG, I got the impression that the University was about to go bankrupt within a few years. This was due to all the reports of big fee (tuition, rent and others) hikes, as if they were needing money urgently. With the most recent accommodation fee hikes, I was getting a bit desperate about whether or not I would graduate before the University went broke. [I didn't have too much sympathy though when they accused me of not paying my graduation fee, when I paid it in March]

The University really needs to learn something about financial discipline

Doom Lord General Porko Porkov
Grand Dumby of Doom!

[Marco Biagi]

St Andrews is financially the healthiest university north of the border, and would compare well UK-wide. The university is in debt, but its 'overdraft' is clear, and the debt is instead more like a 'mortgage', scheduled to be paid off by the exorbitant rents being charged for DRA, with conference income too fluctuating to predict and account for in the business plan, obviously (at least the business plan I saw). Of course, I'm sure Derek Watson could provide a statistic that obviously and certainly proves the opposite position, and it's not like he'd ever be creative in presenting statistics, would he?

[hr]
My life can be divided in two: the times I wish I could sing and the times my neighbours do.

[Tyler Fincher]

[s]christian_harris wrote on 09:26, 19th Aug 2004:
'gaming'

What? Like Goldeneye on the N64?

That would be cool to hire a room for a big tournament like that. One that runs through the night to test endurance more than anything else.

Sorry, I'll go back to my cave.

[hr]
IMAGE:www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~adgc/avatar.JPG

[Haunted]

[s]Tyler Fincher wrote on 14:09, 23rd Aug 2004:
[s]christian_harris wrote on 09:26, 19th Aug 2004:[i]
'gaming'

What? Like Goldeneye on the N64?

That would be cool to hire a room for a big tournament like that. One that runs through the night to test endurance more than anything else.

Sorry, I'll go back to my cave.

[hr]
IMAGE:www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~adgc/avatar.JPG
[/i]

I know someone who is attempting to do just that! Havent heard from him in a while so it may have all gone tits up, he was planning it for this coming year

[Guest]

Does the uni really have debt or is it just bluffing it?

[Sir Tufton Bufton]

[s]Unregisted User wrote on 13:40, 23rd Aug 2004:
Does the uni really have debt or is it just bluffing it?


Claiming twenty-five million pounds of debt that doesn't exist would be a good way for the university's bankers, administrators and auditors to have a little vacation at her majesty's pleasure. I think you can safely assume the debt is real.

In response to the poster further up: you are correct. Looking at the university's accounts shows short term debt of about 14M and long term debt of 27M. Nearly all of this latter number is in the form of a bank loan most of which is not due to be repaid for *at least* five years. Also bear in mind that the short term debt includes things like prepayments - in other words, not a debt in the true sense of the word, but rather an accounting convention. Nearly half of the debt is in this category. Immediate debt, like for example the university's overdraft, is a more reasonable 4M.

On the other side of the ledger, assets (aside from land and buildings) include endowment funds of around 34M (though like all endowments, their use is restricted), as well as a reserve of around 16M.

All of which is a roundabout way of disagreeing with the OP - St A's debts, while large, are controllable.

Remember also that universities in general are not paragons of financial management. They often lag behind the corporate world in upgrading their accounting standards and practices. Even wealthy institutions are vulnerable. Cambridge wasted nine million pounds on a new computer system that didn't work, but still refused to amend their rules of governance so such things wouldn't happen again.

Universities have been forced to become more prudent, especially in the last few years. I think it's much harder for British ones, since the government expects them to magically find space for a zillion more students without having their funding increased. With that in mind, I think St A's is doing a pretty good job. From the 2003 accounts:

"Financially, 2002/2003 has been a year of change. The University has focussed on building upon its recent academic successes and has begun to develop a culture of financial management which will support further academic development. Investment in both academic and residential infrastructure also reflects the University’s intention to provide the robust support needed to deliver its ambitious primary objectives."

- William Berry, Senior Governor


Of course, it will be interesting to see what the university plans to do with the proceeds from the sale of Hamilton Hall.