The UDS Coat of Arms...

[Grandpa]

Hmmm.

I've just looked at the link to this (temporary) website thingy

http://www.yourunion.net/main/activitie ... es/debates

and feel that I must make some comments on the side of caution relating to the use of the description which pops up when I pass my mouse over that thing we are calling a coat of arms.

Does anyone know if the society was granted a coat of arms? If so, is this the complete version which is reproduced here?

It seems doubtfull seeing that all coats that I know of ues a shield shaped shield, not one which seems to incorporate mantling into itself.

But now to the more nit-picking side of things: a coat of arms consists of so much more than just a shield - and it is all most symbolic in nature. A full coat of arms consists (in England) of:

Mantling,
Coronet,
Crest,
Helm,
Arms,
Supporter,
Compartment,
and a Motto Scroll.

Now, my final point is this: Are we using an official coat of arms? Is it registered with The Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, or are we simply using one made up?

I feel this is an important point, and one which must recieve official attention and inspection by the Debating Society at large.

Yours, in earnest as ever,

Grandpa

[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[Bryn]

It's the University's Coat of Arms, just in a different shaped shield. An image of a Coat of Arms cannot be registered/copywrighted - only a description of what it contains can be. In this case it's this:

Parted per saltire Argent and Azure, in chief a book expanded proper leaved Gules, and in base a lion rampant of the last armed and langued of the second, on a chief of the fourth a crescent reversed of the first between two mascles Or. (taken from http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/university.shtml#crest )

[hr]

http://bryn.ipfox.com

[Bryn]

Quoting Grandpa from 01:35, 19th Apr 2005
Hmmm.

I've just looked at the link to this (temporary) website thingy

http://www.yourunion.net/main/activitie ... es/debates

By the way, http://www.yourunion.net/debates now goes to that page.

[hr]

http://bryn.ipfox.com

[Tweedle-Dum]

Yay, now we have some kind of basis for a website (though not really sure about how the yourunion.net surroundings reflect on the prestige of the society), but now that it exists, can we have pictures of and explanations of all of the awards on the table, esp. the Barry Joss award?

Actually, Bryn lives just across the corridor, why am I posting this?

Oh well...

[hr]

Live by the sword, die by the arrow.

[Bryn]

Quoting Tweedle-Dum from 10:26, 19th Apr 2005
Yay, now we have some kind of basis for a website (though not really sure about how the yourunion.net surroundings reflect on the prestige of the society), but now that it exists, can we have pictures of and explanations of all of the awards on the table, esp. the Barry Joss award?

Actually, Bryn lives just across the corridor, why am I posting this?

Oh well...

It's still very much a work in progress, and I do intend to change the style/layout to reflect the society, rather than it just being a sub-page of the union website.

And you're very welcome to contribute anything you like.

[hr]

http://bryn.ipfox.com

[exnihilo]

The shape, in this instance, is the heavily stylized one as featured above the fireplace in the Senate Room, the design is simply that of the University. Surely a man of your venerability ough to recognise that, Grandpa?

PS why especially the Barry Joss award?

[Nepos]

Quoting exnihilo from 11:48, 19th Apr 2005
The shape, in this instance, is the heavily stylized one as featured above the fireplace in the Senate Room, the design is simply that of the University. Surely a man of your venerability ough to recognise that, Grandpa?

Why would he recognise that? Not only has he clearly never been in the Senate Room but he also did not care to ask anybody who might know before demanding "official attention and inspection". I have no time for people who stick their noses in where they are not only not wanted but also in an ignorant fashion.

"Grandpa", if you're so old and wise (and I posit that you are, in fact, neither - especially in comparison with some of the more venerable members of the UDS community, such as Messrs Wilson, Joss, Covino and Martin), you should know that there's a reason we do things here the way we do - and things around here are seldom done for no reason. Just because you did your A levels in Cambridge and took a diploma from somewhere in Oxford does not make you in any way, shape, or form worthy of being our judge or even capable of making recommendations for how we should do things.

Sit down, shut up, take in your surroundings. Ask pertinent and polite questions of those who know. You might just learn a thing or two instead of coming off as a complete and utter toss-pot.

[RJ Covino]

Quoting Nepos from 14:18, 19th Apr 2005
(and I posit that you are, in fact, neither - especially in comparison with some of the more venerable members of the UDS community, such as Messrs Wilson, Joss, Covino and Martin)

People who call me old generally end up feeling my wrath.

Note to the Bryn, I've got the "Press Release" that never was stashed away somewhere concerning the Eliot Wilson and Barry Joss PG Debating awards (which, coincidentally, also references the Hugh Martin Darts Cup) - I can forward it along if you find you want to include such things on the new webpage for Jules' edification...

[hr]

http://www.ralphcovino.com

[exnihilo]

I rather like being referred to as venerable, I must admit.


(edited to move website comments to the website thred)

[JCH]

Quoting Grandpa from 01:35, 19th Apr 2005

A full coat of arms consists (in England) of:

Mantling,
Coronet,
Crest,
Helm,
Arms,
Supporter,
Compartment,
and a Motto Scroll.

No, a coat of arms consists of, a coat of arms. It is the achievement (of arms) which comprises (most) of the parts you list.

[Tweedle-Dum]

Quoting JCH from 16:01, 19th Apr 2005

Quoting Grandpa from 01:35, 19th Apr 2005

A full coat of arms consists (in England) of:

Mantling,
Coronet,
Crest,
Helm,
Arms,
Supporter,
Compartment,
and a Motto Scroll.

No, a coat of arms consists of, a coat of arms. It is the achievement (of arms) which comprises (most) of the parts you list.

To be honest, when were we all last in England; I would postulate that the coat of arms we left there may well have all of these things?

[hr]
edit for spelling
Live by the sword, die by the arrow.

[Anon.]

Quoting Grandpa from 01:35, 19th Apr 2005
Does anyone know if the society was granted a coat of arms? If so, is this the complete version which is reproduced here?

The coat to which you refer is the coat-of-arms of the University of St Andrews. To refer to it as the "UDS coat of arms" is wholly incorrect and actually illegal.

It seems doubtfull seeing that all coats that I know of ues a shield shaped shield, not one which seems to incorporate mantling into itself.

The shape of the shield can be anything you like. This particular shape was most popular in the eighteenth century, but is now (unfortunately, in my opinion) frowned upon by heraldic artists.

But now to the more nit-picking side of things: a coat of arms consists of so much more than just a shield

Tosh. As somebody else has said, a coat of arms is what is displayed on the shield. Everything else is part of the achievement of arms.

Now, my final point is this: Are we using an official coat of arms? Is it registered with The Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, or are we simply using one made up?

Yes, it is an official coat of arms; it was granted by Lyon Court to the University in the early twentieth century. However, the Union Debating Society is not the University, and so is not entitled to use the arms, as I said above.

[Grandpa]

Not only has he clearly never been in the Senate Room but he also did not care to ask anybody who might know before demanding "official attention and inspection".

"Nespos",

Whilst I have not been in the Senate Room, and I find it pertinant to say that neither was I offered the opportunity to, nor was I even aware of its very existence - how would I know?

You may call this ignorance, I call this a failure of duty on behalf of those who would have their society members in full knowledge and information of said society.

Secondly, I did not 'demand' anything:

"I feel this is an important point, and one which must recieve official attention and inspection by the Debating Society at large."

Now, you nespotic little toad, I want to make it very clear that the use of the word 'must' does not necessarily imply an essence of demand. I was stating my feelings on the subject, and to be met by such abject negativism only strengthens my point the more - that some of us here, no matter how good their debating skills, no matter how much more respected than others they may or may not be, are quite neglectfull of attention to detail (myself included as I shall concede later).

Master Nespos, I will not call you sir as you neither have as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong, please - although I shall probably refrain from addressing you as one might - you are clearly quite a rude individual), seniority of years over me, nor, a title, and, as such I must demand that you are refered to by your elders as merely a boy, in full, to be addressed as 'master' - you clearly display the sentiments of one so young in years and/or mentality as to feel the need for such vulgararities as I shall continue to comment on.

I have no time for people who stick their noses in where they are not only not wanted but also in an ignorant fashion

Now, you may view my questions as 'sticking my nose in where it is not wanted' but, and I WANT TO MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR, AS YOU ARE, EVIDENTLY, INCAPABLE OF SEEING A SUBTLE QUESTION WHEN IT PASSES YOUR VERY NOSE all I was referring to, in plain and (as far as I am concerned) boring use of our most colourful language:

"Can anyone tell me a bit more about the coat of arms"

As I said before, I am not without fault, though - and you, horrible little toad, are neither, but lets away from that matter. I hate incivility, and will only use it to meet that with which I am presented. In this case: your dispicable tone of address.

Yes, later on I am picked up for my laziness, and the writer is quite correct that a coat of arms does only include the coat of arms and it is the achievement of arms which has the various items I listed. My apologies for my laziness. This is twice now that I have posted late in the evening/early in the morning, and have made mistakes. Maybe I should learn a lesson.

you should know that there's a reason we do things here the way we do - and things around here are seldom done for no reason.

So, I may now not ask questions such as:

Are we using an official coat of arms? Is it registered with The Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, or are we simply using one made up?[i]

To which I added that I thought this was a most serious point. Yes, it is. Why shouldn't we apply for our own Achievement of Arms? I think that one day it might be a wonderful gift for the UDS to recieve either from its members, or from a benefactor.

To deny this is to deny the recognition that I believe this society is due.

It is the oldest of its kind, and thus, as I am sure those around me will agree, should recieve the appropriate recognition of its 'achievements' - possibly even by way of an Achievement for itself.

Now, little Toad, please would you do your Debating Society some gratitude for your free membership to the oldest one around, and bow down before it, recognise it and try to show those that are not in the know, or have not the knowledge of opportunity, some of the grandeurs and the particulars of where and what we are doing. As I will try to do.

In short, do try not to appear like the

complete and utter toss-pot

that you so despise.

(I suggest you take all points included in context and reference to one another)

[hr]

[i]God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[Grandpa]

Not only has he clearly never been in the Senate Room but he also did not care to ask anybody who might know before demanding "official attention and inspection".

Nespos,

Whilst I have not been in the Senate Room, and I find it pertinant to say that neither was I offered the opportunity to, nor was I even aware of its very existence - how would I know?

You may call this ignorance, I call this a failure of duty on behalf of those who would have their society members in full knowledge and information of said society.

Secondly, I did not demand anything:

I feel this is an important point, and one which must recieve official attention and inspection by the Debating Society at large.

Now, you nespotic little toad, I want to make it very clear that the use of the word must does not necessarily imply an essence of demand. I was stating my feelings on the subject, and to be met by such abject negativism only strengthens my point the more - that some of us here, no matter how good their debating skills, no matter how much more respected than others they may or may not be, are quite neglectfull of attention to detail (myself included as I shall concede later).

Master Nespos, I will not call you sir as you neither have as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong, please - although I shall probably refrain from addressing you as one might - you are clearly quite a rude individual), seniority of years over me nor a title and, as such I must demand that you are refered to by your elders as merely a boy, in full, to be addressed as master - you clearly display the sentiments of one so young in years and/or mentality as to feel the need for such vulgararities as I shall continue to comment on.

I have no time for people who stick their noses in where they are not only not wanted but also in an ignorant fashion

Now, you may view my questions as sticking my nose in where it is not wanted but, and I WANT TO MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR, AS YOU ARE, EVIDENTLY, INCAPABLE OF SEEING A SUBTLE QUESTION WHEN IT PASSES YOUR VERY NOSE all I was referring to, in plain and (as far as I am concerned) boring use of our most colourful English language:

Can anyone tell me a bit more about the coat of arms

As I said before, I am not without fault, though - and you, horrible little toad, are neither, but lets away from that matter. I hate incivility, and will only use it to meet that with which I am presented. In this case: your dispicable tone of address.

Yes, later on I am picked up for my laziness, and the writer is quite correct that a coat of arms does only include the coat of arms and it is the achievement of arms which has the various items I listed. My apologies for my laziness. This is twice now that I have posted late in the evening/early in the morning, and have made mistakes. Maybe I should learn a lesson.

you should know that there\'s a reason we do things here the way we do - and things around here are seldom done for no reason.

So, I may now not ask questions such as:

Are we using an official coat of arms? Is it registered with The Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, or are we simply using one made up?

To which I added that I thought this was a most serious point. Yes, it is. Why shouldnt we apply for our own Achievement of Arms? I think that one day it might be a wonderful gift for the UDS to recieve either from its members, or from a benefactor.

To deny this is to deny the recognition that I believe this society is due.

It is the oldest of its kind, and thus, as I am sure those around me will agree, should recieve the appropriate recognition of its achievements - possibly even by way of an Achievement of Arms for itself.

Now, little Toad, please would you do your Debating Society some gratitude for your free membership to the oldest one around, and bow down before it, recognise it and try to show those that are not in the know, or have not the knowledge of opportunity, some of the grandeurs and the particulars of where and what we are doing. As I will try to do.

In short, do try not to appear like the

complete and utter toss-pot

that you so despise.

(I suggest you take all points included in context and reference to one another)

[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

edited for appearance

[Grandpa]

Not only has he clearly never been in the Senate Room but he also did not care to ask anybody who might know before demanding \"official attention and inspection\".

\"Nespos\",

Whilst I have not been in the Senate Room, and I find it pertinant to say that neither was I offered the opportunity to, nor was I even aware of its very existence - how would I know?

You may call this ignorance, I call this a failure of duty on behalf of those who would have their society members in full knowledge and information of said society.

Secondly, I did not \\\'demand\\\' anything:

\\\"I feel this is an important point, and one which must recieve official attention and inspection by the Debating Society at large.\\\"

Now, you nespotic little toad, I want to make it very clear that the use of the word \\\'must\\\' does not necessarily imply an essence of demand. I was stating my feelings on the subject, and to be met by such abject negativism only strengthens my point the more - that some of us here, no matter how good their debating skills, no matter how much more respected than others they may or may not be, are quite neglectfull of attention to detail (myself included as I shall concede later).

Master Nespos, I will not call you sir as you neither have as far as I know (correct me if I am wrong, please - although I shall probably refrain from addressing you as one might - you are clearly quite a rude individual), seniority of years over me, nor, a title, and, as such I must demand that you are refered to by your elders as merely a boy, in full, to be addressed as \\\'master\\\' - you clearly display the sentiments of one so young in years and/or mentality as to feel the need for such vulgararities as I shall continue to comment on.

I have no time for people who stick their noses in where they are not only not wanted but also in an ignorant fashion

Now, you may view my questions as \\\'sticking my nose in where it is not wanted\\\' but, and I WANT TO MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR, AS YOU ARE, EVIDENTLY, INCAPABLE OF SEEING A SUBTLE QUESTION WHEN IT PASSES YOUR VERY NOSE all I was referring to, in plain and (as far as I am concerned) boring use of our most colourful language:

\\\"Can anyone tell me a bit more about the coat of arms\\\"

As I said before, I am not without fault, though - and you, horrible little toad, are neither, but lets away from that matter. I hate incivility, and will only use it to meet that with which I am presented. In this case: your dispicable tone of address.

Yes, later on I am picked up for my laziness, and the writer is quite correct that a coat of arms does only include the coat of arms and it is the achievement of arms which has the various items I listed. My apologies for my laziness. This is twice now that I have posted late in the evening/early in the morning, and have made mistakes. Maybe I should learn a lesson.

you should know that there\\\'s a reason we do things here the way we do - and things around here are seldom done for no reason.

So, I may now not ask questions such as:

Are we using an official coat of arms? Is it registered with The Court of the Lord Lyon, King of Arms, or are we simply using one made up?[i]

To which I added that I thought this was a most serious point. Yes, it is. Why shouldn\\\'t we apply for our own Achievement of Arms? I think that one day it might be a wonderful gift for the UDS to recieve either from its members, or from a benefactor.

To deny this is to deny the recognition that I believe this society is due.

It is the oldest of its kind, and thus, as I am sure those around me will agree, should recieve the appropriate recognition of its \\\'achievements\\\' - possibly even by way of an Achievement for itself.

Now, little Toad, please would you do your Debating Society some gratitude for your free membership to the oldest one around, and bow down before it, recognise it and try to show those that are not in the know, or have not the knowledge of opportunity, some of the grandeurs and the particulars of where and what we are doing. As I will try to do.

In short, do try not to appear like the

complete and utter toss-pot

that you so despise.

(I suggest you take all points included in context and reference to one another)

[hr]

[i]God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[Grandpa]

PS why especially the Barry Joss award?

I'm sorry, what do you mean?

[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[Bryn]

Grandpa - please be more civil with your comments.

[hr]

http://bryn.ipfox.com

[Grandpa]

Bryn,

As far as my comments towards Nespos are concerned, I think that using the phrase 'little toad' is not only quite a gentle riposte, but I should hope also quite humurous. Well, I thought so anyway.

As I stated, I shall always be civil in my comments, insomuch as I am afforded civility also.

There was nothing in my original that warrants an incivil retort such as Nespos'.

Thus I do hope I am somewhat justified in using the language as I have. The heavy font and italicizing was merely for impact of the point.

Yours, with respect,

Grandpa


[hr]

God save The Queen, long live Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[Tweedle-Dum]

To be honest, with Rectors, Principals, and other members of the court speaking at the society, and not once objecting to the use of the arms, I would say we have a strong case for an assumed right, as we have never to my knowledge been asked by a member of the university (i.e. a graduate) to stop.

[hr]

Live by the sword, die by the arrow.

[exnihilo]

Indeed, the very opposite is true - as The University of St Andrews Union Debating Society the society has been granted use of said arms. My comment about the Barry Joss award, Grandpa, was directed to the person who first referred to it, as you would see if you read other people's posts.

Your post, however, as I think everyone will agree, is sententious in the extreme. Behave yourself. Do try to be civil, if you expect to be treated with respect perhaps you - as the 'elder'* - should set an example to the young ones of whom you are so contemptuous? Oh, and if you're going to use more than basic English, learn to spell.



*This, however, may be one pissing contest it would be better for you not to enter.