Unofficial Game Commentary Round 3

[aspasia]

is frank the (slight) nick frost look-alike? hmmm.... -xxx

[Amorphous]

Hello all,

This is another one of those 'we've made a relatively controversial judgement and are now giving our reasons why'-type posts. What fun!

The judgement, in essence: Aspasia is dead, having been taken out by the Hit Squad.

The reason why it's slightly controversial: under Safe Zones the rules include 'society meetings, sports games and practices, study-groups, etc. are all out of bounds. Likewise players who may be transporting equipment to and from such events are out-of-bounds' (my emphasis) and Aspasia was carrying a badminton racquet at the time, having just left the Sports Hall after playing badminton.

My reasoning for the kill being upheld:
- the rules on Safe Zones are in place in order to make sure that players don't have to worry about an attack when they really should be thinking about more important things (e.g. concentrating on a lecture) or when circumstances force them into a position in which they would not be able to defend themselves (e.g. carrying a gigantic bag of footballs with both hands... or something)
- the kill occurred from behind, and information we've received suggests that the first thing Aspasia knew about it is when the shurikens hit her. Therefore, even if for the sake of argument she'd been walking along with two loaded guns rather than sports equipment, she would still not have been able to defend herself as it was a surprise attack (which are by themselves legal). The badminton racquet did not impede her ability to defend herself as there was simply no time to do so.
- Aspasia did not actually know the sports-equipment rule at the time of the attack (a non-player told her about it afterwards) therefore she was NOT walking along with the impression of 'oh, I'm carrying a badminton racquet so I'm safe, I don't need to keep an eye out for attackers'.


To my mind the argument of 'but it's in the rules' is missing the wood for the trees somewhat in that it fails to take account of WHY the rule is in place; I get this feeling even more strongly when the individual concerned has admitted that they didn't know about the rule, and therefore could not have been using it as the basis for their behaviour.

That's all, really.

[hr]

If Jack Bauer was put in a room with Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Nina Myers and handed a gun with two bullets, he'd shoot Nina twice.

[Frank]

Umm. The inconsistency I'd note is not whether or not she should be dead but whether the Hit Squad should be allowed to do that?

Whilst it's irrelevent to whether the kill still stood or not: surely carrying sports equipment *is* a valid excuse (it being invoked now or not is irrelevent).

That is: She was clearly carrying her badminton racket ergo the Hit Squad should not have targeted her.

If Assassins can be incompetented, so should Hit Squaddies.

(Fair enough on her being dead though, but still...)

My point again, in case I'm simply rambling and not making it:

The hit squad targetting/attacking someone carrying clearly sports equipment too/from a sports event is wrong.

One re-stating of an issue I have:
- Why are general/society sports events permitted as safe zones but actual society events not? It's non sensical. If I can be hit when watching a film with AnimeSoc/an episode of Doctor Who with DocSoc, then why am I not allowed to be hit whilst hanging about waiting to go on the pitch for a sports event?

If it's for danger/safety's sakes: this rule still implies that targetting drunk people dancing in the bop with the insanely slippery (and hard) floor is more safe than someone running about in a field.

It also means I'm a valid target whilst transporting (potentially) hundreds of pounds worth of equipment/models to GameSoc, but not when I'm carrying a Hocky Stick.

This is of course with the view that we should be able to have fun and play assasins. (Ie assassins is something complementary to other events, not superceding them)

Also, I still think toilets/showers should be safe zones. They're definately under the heading "something more important" :p

Otherwise, I'd still be keen to see more assasins round this way!

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[aspasia]

woo, can't wait to join the hit squad the sense of respect and camaraderie is heartwarming, you guys are like brothers to me

see you down a dark alley sometime -xxx


[hr]

up jumped the devil

[Bullet_MaGnEt]

Having re-read the rules they do seem to make someone carrying anything exempt but i had always taken them to mean, as our almighty ruler has stated, something so heavy/big/awkward as to make defending yourself if not impossible then extremely difficult. Lets be honest here, unless the uni plays some hardkore rules badminton with 10 foot diameter racquets made of lead then im guessing Aspasia would have been able to carry her racquet one handed or even in a bag and was therefore perfectly able to defend herself. I would say the same for anything of that ilk ie tennis racquet, pool ques, hocky stick, frisbee etc. Her defence would only have been valid if she was carrying say all the societys racquets in a big holdall or whatever.

To conclude people id take it as a general rule of thumb that if you can carry it one handed the other hand should be on a weapon.

J

[October]

Well after tonights no-event,
All I can say is:

Amorphous, have fun with the write up.



[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[QuadrAlien]

Quoting Amorphous from 22:06, 1st Mar 2007

- Aspasia did not actually know the sports-equipment rule at the time of the attack (a non-player told her about it afterwards)

I'd like to defend Aspasia on this one, but it all sounds so perfectly familiar...

Signed, Codename Zakash


[hr]

But still at night, when darkness rules again,
Whispering shadows creeping through the lanes,
Evil creatures of the expelled magician,
Oh, it's a fight you'll never win...

[JAK]

I've got to say I'd agree with Frank that there should exist the possibility for hit squad to become incompetant. I mean, as I understand it if they end up killing innocents, there's nothing that can be done to them because hit squad can't become incompetent, etc.

[hr]

I got my BBC

[October]

Quoting JAK from 16:02, 3rd Mar 2007
I've got to say I'd agree with Frank that there should exist the possibility for hit squad to become incompetant. I mean, as I understand it if they end up killing innocents, there's nothing that can be done to them because hit squad can't become incompetent, etc.

[hr]

I got my BBC

I hear that.
There does seem to be rogue elements with in it, which just want the largest kill count possible.


[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[Amorphous]

The problem with making the squad Incompetent is that there's absolutely no point; either it'll encourage recklessness (in their bid to become Competent again) or they'll just end up hiding away to avoid assassination by their former colleagues. Alternately, other squad members will choose to leave their own as the lowest priority and continue to go after Assassins, effectively pretending that the Hit Squad Incompetence never happened.

With Hit Squad it has to be all-or-nothing; either they're allowed to continue playing or they're kicked out entirely, there's no real way of disciplining the disciplenary force.

[hr]

If Jack Bauer was put in a room with Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Nina Myers and handed a gun with two bullets, he'd shoot Nina twice.

[Craicman]

Quoting JAK from 16:02, 3rd Mar 2007
I've got to say I'd agree with Frank that there should exist the possibility for hit squad to become incompetant. I mean, as I understand it if they end up killing innocents, there's nothing that can be done to them because hit squad can't become incompetent, etc.

[hr]

I got my BBC

You're only saying that because I'm on the hit squad and you hate my guts

[hr]

Like the inquisition, you'll never see us coming

[Frank]

With Hit Squad it has to be all-or-nothing; either they're allowed to continue playing or they're kicked out entirely, there's no real way of disciplining the disciplenary force.

But that's just it. If it's nothing, then there's pecisely nout to bind 'em to the rules. Unfortunate enough that Aspasia wouldn't have known the rules in any event, but it doesn'#t detract from the Hit Squad Member(s) attacking someone who 'technically speaking' should be safe.

I'd certainly have though I was safe had I been in Aspasia's position.

Not only that, it seems from the report that the HS Member(s) knew that she was just leaving a sports event! With very obvious sports equipment in tow!

Gut hating (likely) has nothing to do with it!

It needn't be making them 'Incompetent' as such, but either: reversing kills on the basis of rules breachs (like Water Pistols indoors), or removing members from the Hit Squad.

Of course, I'm sure there's other options too...

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[October]

Quoting Frank from 18:27, 3rd Mar 2007
it doesn't detract from the Hit Squad Member(s) attacking someone who 'technically speaking' should be safe.

There's alot of that going around.
I should be Safe in all manners from the HS, doesn't stop them from attacking me.
And trying to set up situations so that they could kill me.

I think if members of the Hit Squad can't play by the rules they shouldn't be Hit Squad members.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[Frank]

Interestingly, speaking to Bullet_Magnet last night, amongst other peoples (and other topics), we came across a little 'spirit of the game' ...problem.

It had always been my impression that it'd be extremely bad form of HS Members to be simply hanging around with assassins in an effort to 'catch a glimpse of their weapon' and then subsequently kill them.

(NB this was after folks started playing about with my equipment at a friends house last night)

Whilst, as Bullet_Magnet rightly points out, in the old 'Cambridge Rules' it was clear with the 'Police': you don't wave weapons about in front of the police.

However, that brought my riposte: Assassins (and the Hiq Squad) aren't supposed to be trying to stop each other having fun. BM rightly alludes to 'real life': assassins simply wouldn't be allowing folks to mess about with their weapons. But my only (and IMO still valid) comeback is "This ain't real-life".

If I wanted to have a waterfight using a few of my water weapons with some friends, would the Hit Squad be justified in simply showing up and 'killing me' on the basis that I was using my weapons? Of course I'd say: "Hell no!".

As I see it the HS have essentially two (I'm sure I had three I wanted to say, but still...) purposes:
- To act as an incentive to actually obey the rules of the game [by being able to remove you from the game once you're Incompetent or Wanted] (essentially keeping Game Integrity)
- Being an incentive to not be making attempts in broad daylight

The first is self explanatory. The second, however, is there simply to ensure that you don't just kill folks in crowded rooms (or more specifically: if you *do* make attempts in crowded rooms, expect some trouble...there might be 'CID' HS members lying around!)

Other than that, though, I don't think it's really the HS's place to be 'tricking' folks into getting killed. Though I heard about some of this last time (and didn't deal with it), I've since come around on this, in my head at least:

the HS shouldn't be going out of their way to goad or trick folks into getting themselves killed. That's not just counter to the 'spirit of the game', but being a rules-lawwyering beardy

Of course, my interpretation of the 'spirit of the game' is obviously somewhat different to the view of others. I suspect, however, that what I say actually makes sense, and is more enjoyable 'on the whole' than trying to trick folks into getting killed.



[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[October]

Quoting Frank from 18:53, 3rd Mar 2007
Franks truthfull rant.
See Above

yes, I agree with you.

I'm not going to write what happened with me here,
But I did report it. (more than I can say the Hit Squad members involed did.)
But if anyone wants to know, I'd be glad to message them the details.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[Craicman]

Quoting October from 18:33, 3rd Mar 2007

Quoting Frank from 18:27, 3rd Mar 2007
it doesn't detract from the Hit Squad Member(s) attacking someone who 'technically speaking' should be safe.

There's alot of that going around.
I should be Safe in all manners from the HS, doesn't stop them from attacking me.
And trying to set up situations so that they could kill me.

I think if members of the Hit Squad can't play by the rules they shouldn't be Hit Squad members.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

quit your whining it was only a joke jeez

[hr]

Like the inquisition, you'll never see us coming

[JAK]

Quoting Craicman from 18:18, 3rd Mar 2007

Quoting JAK from 16:02, 3rd Mar 2007
I've got to say I'd agree with Frank that there should exist the possibility for hit squad to become incompetant. I mean, as I understand it if they end up killing innocents, there's nothing that can be done to them because hit squad can't become incompetent, etc.

[hr]

I got my BBC

You're only saying that because I'm on the hit squad and you hate my guts

[hr]

Like the inquisition, you'll never see us coming

That's not true, but let's leave this here and not get personal.

Quoting October from 18:33, 3rd Mar 2007

Quoting Frank from 18:27, 3rd Mar 2007
it doesn't detract from the Hit Squad Member(s) attacking someone who 'technically speaking' should be safe.

There's alot of that going around.
I should be Safe in all manners from the HS, doesn't stop them from attacking me.
And trying to set up situations so that they could kill me.

I think if members of the Hit Squad can't play by the rules they shouldn't be Hit Squad members.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

Frank, as I recall the situation last year wasn't so much "Hit Squad tricking people in order to kill them", it was "person who happened to be hit squad acting, with another, as accomplices to an assassin." And as I recall, the assassin ended up killing his hit squad accomplice, because he'd seen him with a weapon. The point is that I don't think the hit squad member used his hit squad role to get a HS kill.

[hr]

I got my BBC

[Frank]

Ah, good point Jonny. My analogy wasn't quite straight there. The point of the reference to last game's incident was that it was inappropriate behaviour of HS (well...with hindsight, I ruled as best I saw fit at the time).

Even then, considering the situation itself was rather daft, the Hit Squad would still have been 'up to no good' in terms of the Spirit of the Game (now that, in my head at least, I've a clear image of what good the HS should be up to...)

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Fedoraccoon]

I think everyone is getting a little too wound up about very tiny things, again. I hope I don't sound too pretentious when I say this, but everyone needs to calm down, again.

I will however acknowledge that the hit squad is getting a little gung-ho and I am dealing with it.

I'd also like to point out, however, that the hit squad has been doing a great job so far and I don't fault any of them for anything at all. I'm frankly surprised that all it took was one small error for everyone to start getting in a twist (vis-a-vis October).

As far as Aspasia is concerned I seem to recall a post or an email or something last year which clarified the sports equipment immunity rule to include only cumbersome and incapacitating objects. Otherwise, people could claim safety just by carrying a random piece of sporting equipment, no matter how small or insignificant. I believe WildCard did not make a mistake in attacking Aspasia, given that I know for a fact that he was recalling the same ammendment (it appears Bullet Magnet remembers it as well).

I'm pretty concerned about how quickly everyone seems to resort to bickering. If there is a problem, talk to the umpire, the umpire makes a ruling, end of subject. Now can we all just muster up some dignity and class and get on with this game.

Signed,

Wild Bill
Hit Squad Leader

[hr]

This world...is made of... LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!!

[Fedoraccoon]

I think everyone is getting a little too wound up about very tiny things, again. I hope I don't sound too pretentious when I say this, but everyone needs to calm down, again.

I will however acknowledge that the hit squad is getting a little gung-ho and I am dealing with it.

I'd also like to point out, however, that the hit squad has been doing a great job so far and I don't fault any of them for anything at all. I'm frankly surprised that all it took was one small error for everyone to start getting in a twist (vis-a-vis October).

As far as Aspasia is concerned I seem to recall a post or an email or something last year which clarified the sports equipment immunity rule to include only cumbersome and incapacitating objects. Otherwise, people could claim safety just by carrying a random piece of sporting equipment, no matter how small or insignificant. I believe WildCard did not make a mistake in attacking Aspasia, given that I know for a fact that he was recalling the same ammendment (it appears Bullet Magnet remembers it as well).

I'm pretty concerned about how quickly everyone seems to resort to bickering. If there is a problem, talk to the umpire, the umpire makes a ruling, end of subject. Now can we all just muster up some dignity and class and get on with this game.

Signed,

Wild Bill
Hit Squad Leader

[hr]

This world...is made of... LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!!