Unofficial Game Commentary Round 3

[Frank]

A quick interjection to respond to Bullet_Magnet's point: I agree about rules consistancy. Fortunately, for now, all instances of indoor water use I've used have been resolved immediately. Once it is apparent the kill was invalid: it should be invalidated. As resolution on the other kill issue, I'd discussed it with others over dinner and felt:

Wessex: Incompetent List
Guy Killed Twice: Ressurected and back into game
Guy who made second kill: Get's a kill to his name, but hasn't actually taken someone out of the game

(meaning 'kills total' won't equal 'those killed' at the end of the game, but that's irrelevent)

Of course, it is wholey dependent on the Umpires' discussions with those involved, and their own desires, but the above seems a fair way to resolve it all.

As for rules consistency itself: I'd say that, providing the matter is handled reasonably quickly, it would still allow for a 'change' in the rules, especially considering the early stage of the game.

As a side note: I would never dream of using my true 'babies' of Water Weapons indoors in the game itself...they actually are just too powerful and messy to be trusted!

Using nerf dart guns are a much better weapon than water guns.

Is much better. *Is*. I Sinner, therefore I pedant.

They show exctaly that the target has been hit, and they do not leave a mess.

Not true. They show those who can *see* it. Example (from real life):

My mate J, we shall call him, fire a series of nerf/dart/rubber bands at me mid-fight. He claims at least three of them hit me. I didn't feel a thing, and I certainly didn't see them hit be. I really couldn't know I'd been hit without simply relying on his word. But this doesn't make sense: from my point of view I haven't been hit!

And with a wide range of Nerf and nerf-esk weapons advalabe it should be so hard to get your hands on one.

Quite true. They are immensely more difficult to conceal. And this is supposed to be an easy and accessible game, I hardly think that (if you pardon the pun) water guns should be nerfed.

So why risk water?

Easier? It's actually not that big a risk? You're not likely to injure someone's eye with a water gun? You're highly unlikely to actually cause things to be smashed (allowing for shards of glass & associated damage etc) using very basic or small water pistols.

Water out doors tho, that's compleatly safe (ish, well we've all done it before.)

I think that's utterly hypocritical. Water out doors can still lead to people falling over and breaking their arses. Slippy floors? Still happens out doors.

It's not that a new rule has to be made,
just the current rules have to be inforced.

I beg to differ. It remains the Umpires' decision, but there we are.

The rules Clearly state that Water weaponary can not be used indoors.
And I think that these rules should be a heared to.

It's very little to do with opinion whether they're adhered to or not: it's the Umpires' decision, and since we're not a formal society, we remain soley in their 'power', lest we start schisming like ...well, I don't know what schisms really, but still.

Wessex has been warned in so much as the rules explicitly warn against rule breaking and repeated rule breaking. I myself have 'warned' him (with all the power I have...which is not much), but it remains simple: it is still a rulebreak. Get a weapon to use indoors. I did. I'd still prefer to be able to use the water pistols though. They're generally smaller, easier to use, don't require immediate reloading, easily concealed, silent, and the only problem is ensuring you don't soak the place you're fighting in.

However, bringing up 'in hall' assassins is a very fair point. That sounds wholeheartedly thuggish. Assassins...in a fully fledged fire fight? Oh my, I think that's a problem for the individual assassins, and as such they should be wholey responsible. If, in truth, they occur unattributable damages, then contact the police to hunt 'em down. We'll heartily cooperate. Disqualify players that get carried away: by all means.

Being in the Assassins game isn't an excuse to take leave of your senses. Running an 'in halls' assassins game condenses the matter terribly. Dolling out (apparently) 'close by' targets on the first 'round' of Assassins is similarly fallible: it condenses the extremest fighting into one area and encourages the majority fo killing to be inside Halls of Residence or other habitations.

Risk and damage is an inherent part of this game. If you cannot be reassured by the safety of your shot: don't make it. If you're not willing to accept possible repercussions that are incumbent upon you to deal with: don't make the shot. This applies to everything: from high pressure Water Pistols, and nerf guns near folks' major 'fragile: handle with care' collections through to talc-filled letters, smoke bombs, water bombs and such-like.

I doubt the local police would have too much sympathy with us for having our lights boxed out by a dad who's kid we almost just caught with a dart, shuriken or attack monkey...

Water Weaponry should be viable. It is simply incumbent upon us all to ensure we conduct ourselves with due care and caution. We're Assassins afterall, not Henchmen or ignorant minions.

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[October]

Quoting Amorphous from 18:55, 19th Feb 2007
As for the list of the dead: we WILL be re-distributing targets in this round, as soon as we've managed to ascertain who is actually dead (indoor water etc.) and as soon as James gets back and stops buying New Hall Ball tickets.

Thanking you!
^-^

(Mostly I don't want what happen to me last time, Were I had been setting up a kill for a few days, only to be told that my target was the first one killed.)

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[October]

in replay to frank.

First off, I take offenece as many dyslexics do, to people thinking them selfs smart when they "corect" them.
I'd surgest you think before you do it again.

And if you Read the very rules you yourself ruled over last time,
You'd know that it clearly says that Water Weaponary in not alowed in-doors,
It is perficaly useable out side.


Also on the matter of being hit, and it showing.
I can be hit by water and dispute it.
I can often not feel it. and water won't show up on more or less all of my clothes.
so what do you do then, soke me from head to toe?

Also on the matter of "easier to use, don't require immediate reloading, easily concealed",
so you can't handle something that's out side of your comfort zone? So nerf-esk weapons are that slightly harder to use, so what? A good assassin will make up for that. will plan a head, make sure that the first shot counts. make sure that their plan is fool proof, and if all goes to pot, then there target was a better assassin in the end.

On the point of out doors,
I was being Sarcastic.
I know how dangerist water guns can be out side, I've been hurt by them in the past.
But I thought I'd be nice and not say we should have a full ban on them.
Maybe that'll be the best way to sort this question out? huh?
Didn't think so.
You want to use your water gun, righ? your are allowed, but the rules do say not in-doors. am I the only one seeing that?

And it's harder to cause damage outside. So use them there.
I'm not sure about you, but I'ld still like to be playing assassins next year, and not have it baned. cos you do know they will. We damage anything of the University, they will ban it. and come down hard on everyone imvoled.


And you showed before that you want to do things by the rules (all be it the rules of english) when you said you were a pedant.
So how is it harder to play by the rules of assassins?

So don't take a hight and mightly tone.
Not every one is or will be as carefull as you. you have to execpt that.

And in my halls, I'm on the commeity, and I'd rather not have to anwser to the rest of it, and the RMs and the warrdens why we going to have pay for damages cos some dork came in a spried the place with water.
It does cos damage, would you use a water gun in your home? I think not. they are out door toys for a reason.


How I'm sorry for the rant. But I think it needed to be said.
Water is not the nice and easy assassin anwser. that would be a sword.

So do what me and alot of other assassins do. have more than 3 weapons.
I never leave the house with out a wide range of ways of attack.
Be inventive.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[Frank]

in replay to frank.

First off, I take offenece as many dyslexics do, to people thinking them selfs smart when they "corect" them.
I'd surgest you think before you do it again.

I hardly think it's then difficult to run things through a spell checker either.

And if you Read the very rules you yourself ruled over last time,
You'd know that it clearly says that Water Weaponary in not alowed in-doors,
It is perficaly useable out side.

Thank you for your high and mighty attitude. It's a minor facet of the rules that I'd missed on implicit assumption myself. I acknowledged that at the time. Perhaps by digesting what I've actually been saying you'd find that I'm well aware of the rules, and I'm well aware mistakes had been made. You'd also find that I'm proposing a rules changing, not debating the RAW: the Rules As Written.

Also on the matter of being hit, and it showing.
I can be hit by water and dispute it.
I can often not feel it. and water won't show up on more or less all of my clothes.

That's a lovely benefit of essentially 'real' armour in this game. Sometimes you can make it ambiguous enough for both players to know...without lying. If neither person knows, then no-one was hit.

so what do you do then, soke me from head to toe?

Not at first, I'd close to a range where it'd be essentially undisputable. If it became apparent you thought you'd not been hit, parle'd be called and we#'d discuss the matter. Failing that I'd try'n return at some other point and find something to hit you with (which make far more obvious contacts). Or soak you from head to toe...amd since the clothes'd be (presumably) water resistant, that shouldn't be a problem.

Also on the matter of "easier to use, don't require immediate reloading, easily concealed",
so you can't handle something that's out side of your comfort zone?

Yes, let's make it personal. Terribly mature.

So nerf-esk weapons are that slightly harder to use, so what?

So what? Well, nothing really. They are, and people like things that are easier, c'est la vie.

A good assassin will make up for that.

The only master assassin (that I'm aware of) here seems to be the one of those campaigning for the water pistols. But then, they might not be 'good' assassins...

will plan a head, make sure that the first shot counts. make sure that their plan is fool proof, and if all goes to pot, then there target was a better assassin in the end.

Hardly a safe conclusion. They might escape to try another day, like most entertaining villains. They might even win, one day, like the best villains.

On the point of out doors,
I was being Sarcastic.

Welcome to teh intrawebzors11!11!one. Sarcasm doesn't translate terribly well in text. Emoticons are often helpful, or simple things like "In case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic".

I know how dangerist water guns can be out side, I've been hurt by them in the past.
But I thought I'd be nice and not say we should have a full ban on them.
Maybe that'll be the best way to sort this question out? huh?
Didn't think so.

It'd certainly be a compromise: a solution nobody likes.

You want to use your water gun, righ? your are allowed, but the rules do say not in-doors. am I the only one seeing that?

You might be the only one you see seeing that, but everyone else (except Wessex, it seems) is happy enough to accept that we know it's part of the rules. The crux of the issue is that I feel it should be changed...seemingly Wessex, at least, agrees.

And it's harder to cause damage outside.

Not if you own a wrecking-ball-equipped JCB or similar vehicle...
(that was a joke: yes, there are indeed less obviously breakable things outdoors, that's why I'd assume that it's desirable to make kills out doors and away from other people.

So use them there.

Who's the new Umpire?

I'm not sure about you, but I'ld still like to be playing assassins next year, and not have it baned. cos you do know they will.

Who will? Fife Police? The University? We're not actually affilliated with either strictly speaking, so it'd be pretty difficult, time consuming and wasteful for any of them to even bother coming for us. Plus, I'd expect our dear Umpires would be extremely firm and stubborn in their stance: Assassins themselves are responbsible for themselves. You don't get added protection from us.

We damage anything of the University, they will ban it. and come down hard on everyone imvoled.

How do they propose to do that? Is there a University Inquisition being set up right not to track us all down. Maybe they'll send a hit squad and their own assassins against us?

In utter truth: that sounds fun, more than anything else. No, anyone who damages University property answers to the University. The cornerstone of this game is honesty, and if folks aren't playing along, they get the boot.

And you showed before that you want to do things by the rules (all be it the rules of english) when you said you were a pedant.
So how is it harder to play by the rules of assassins?

Excuse me, where did anyone state the difficulty of playing by the rules?

So don't take a hight and mightly tone.

I'll take a high and mighty tone if I think what I'm saying is requiring a high and mighty tone. Fortunately though, I haven't yet.

Not every one is or will be as carefull as you. you have to execpt that.

No, they have to accept that. I don't. I can report them to the University, can't I? I can cooperate with the murder enquiry, can't I/

Just because it's easy not to get caught doesn't mean we should be tolerant or permissive of shoddy behaviour in people.

And in my halls, I'm on the commeity, and I'd rather not have to anwser to the rest of it, and the RMs and the warrdens why we going to have pay for damages cos some dork came in a spried the place with water.

I cannot for one second see why or how the commity, RM, wardens would be coming to you about it unless:
1- You were able to tell them who it was, but were refraining from doing so
2- Being the cause of the problem.

It does cos damage, would you use a water gun in your home?

Yes, actually. I'd be rather careful with it too, just like every othertime. But thanks for asking, mum.

(Yes, that was sarcasm).

I think not.

Woops.

they are out door toys for a reason.

As are Nerf Guns, and most 'activity' related toys. In fact playing with much more than action figures in doors is asking for trouble if you aren't:
A- Not a child
B- Extremely careful

Water is not the nice and easy assassin anwser. that would be a sword.

Yes, because hitting someone with something never led to any problems. In sarcasm again I refer you to Urgl the proto-human/primative primate who hit his friend with a rock and was brutally slaughtered. Then jumped on. Then eaten.

Swords are no more safe than water in this respect. The whole game entails risk, and I'd wager that precisely none of us are actuaries, so we can leave out the risk assessment.

All Weapons: Risky. Be bloomin' careful when using them.

So do what me and alot of other assassins do. have more than 3 weapons.
I never leave the house with out a wide range of ways of attack.
Be inventive.

Thanks, but I'm ahead of that suggestion. As I stand I've seven weapons of varying degrees of use and handyness on my person. You'd be preaching to the converted there. Do recall that it's highly unlikely that any of us playing this are actually stupid.

Sorry to sully this somewhat, but you seem to have a particular beef with my line of argument that I cannot for a moment place. Indeed, making it personal lowered the air of this discussion, but it remains: I'd prefer to resolve this than just arse about and end up saying "Oh, bygones be bygones".

If you've a problem with me in particular, please take it up via email or facebook, or indeed in person at a time other than in the middle of a game of assassins.

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Fedoraccoon]

I don't know about anyone else, but this seems to me like we're all beginning to get a bit too caught up in this debate. I could just shout calm down and hope we do, but I won't. so here is my two cents.

As I see it, the rules are designed to maximize fun while minimizing the disturbance the game creates to "civilians." In this case, it is better to be safe than sorry. Of course, the circumstances will always vary when it comes to a specific confrontation, water gun or no. As always, we have to do our best and count on the honor system, perhaps not effective, but it's what we got. Water guns can cause trouble, but they cause a lot more trouble indoors than out. Whether or not we think it might be managable is irrelavent, it's better not to tempt fate. Ergo, no water pistols indoors. As for nerf guns, maybe the bulkiness is the price you pay for using projectile weapons indoors.

It sounds to me like the rules as they are designed now should stand. I would also point out that the umpire's authority only extends to interpreting the rules, not reversing them. If players can't count on the rules being solid, they won't follow them and simply gamble that their action will be upheld.

On the subject of bang kills, I have a unique knowledge of how confusion can arise from the topic. Especially when people start thinking about distance limitations ("I'd have got closer if I thought it was necassary" etc.) I've done some thinking, and it strikes me that the best policy is that a bang kill should be valid if the situation is such that a genuinely fired shot positively could not miss. If the parties don't agree on if this was the case, flip a coin. Yes it is still vulnerable to lying, but hey, that is the price you pay with the honor system.

So let's leave the rules as they are and get some decisions on who is alive or dead and move on.

Oh yeah, and everybody calm down.

[hr]

This world...is made of... LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!!

[Frank]

Deleted my last post. Not because I was wrong as such, because it was petty and vindictive. Which is worse than being wrong, in many cases.

Anyhow, I'd still disagree that water is any *more* dangerous in itself than the other weapons.

A good case (not one which I'd support, but I cannot deny it's potential validity), is the banning of *all* projectiles indoors. Again: I would not support that, but it's a valid proposal nonetheless.

As an alternative, seeing no reason to stick halfway in this: either all or none, given that it is entirely the responsibility of the assassins whether they make a mess or not.

A better proposal, IMO, is to allow it, but have serious penalties on 'thuggish' assassinations (the proposed 'drench me from head to toe', whilst effective is not really something to be encouraged...)

Regarding the Umpires' Authority: Given that they're essentially the rules writers, so long as parity is maintained and consistency in enforcement is kept up, there shouldn't be problems with rectifying rules (IMO Water Weapons should have been allowed this game, but there we are!)

Indeed, at this stage, it is possible to ammend the basic ruleset without 'cheating' anyone or becoming terribly inconsistent. Last time around, it was, but that was a (by that time) unnavoidable problem. Spadge Mince shouldn't have died last tiem, but the damage was done, the game had progressed and I hadn't noticed it was a violation of the rules. Indeed, I only found out myself when one of my kills (check the rules, Umpires' can pursue wanted targets...) was reversed (by me, admitedly) when it was brought to light that they shouldn't be used indoors!

Anyways, regardless of this 'heavy' start, it has still been an interesting start! And alot better managed than my one last time, I might add... (in spite of quibbleable decisions )

Frank

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[Bullet_MaGnEt]

I just want to reiterate one of Franks points as it scared the hell out of me last time. Game organisers can kill assassins on the wanted list and are invincible. So actually regardless of wether or not my rubber band barrage, yes it was me since I mentioned Frank by name in my earlier post and fares fare, hit him it actually would have counted for bugger all. Trust me as paranoid as I was in general and even more so when I was on the incompetence list nothing beats knowing there is a heavily armed terminator type killing machine on the loose who knows where you live.

J

[Amorphous]

An email has been sent regarding water guns indoors. (I was originally going to write that we had passed a water judgement, but that seemed inappropriate somehow...)

PLEASE STOP ARGUING ABOUT IT!

Yours headachingly,
Amorphous

[October]

Well that was one odd soc meet.


Please Please let assassins keep being this tense.
It was so odd, Haveing 3 assassins in a rome all thinking each other is trying to kill each other is so... so ... something.
Tho I did miss being a witness to a kill because I thought it a better idea to buy chocolate. Lucky me, and lucky assassin.

The whole "Kill someone with a weapon drawen" rule makes the game that much toughter when other assassins are in the room.
YAY!!!

And thanks for a roster...
I'm sure it will work well with the Assassin database that everyone would of build by now.
And it's fun trying to place names to pseudonyms.
Tho a list of the dead with the real names will still be usefull.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[Craicman]

Mod Edit: This is getting out of hand. The water issue has been dealt with in-game: let's just drop it now, okay?

[Fedoraccoon]

Now that the issue has been settled, and it has been, I propose that we clean up this thread of that discussion seeing as how it is now moot.

[hr]

This world...is made of... LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!..LOVE AND PEACE!!

[Seti]

For anyone new to this game and not yet dead (good for you) a piece of advice - if you see someone you know is an assassin, RUN! If they're not after you, no harm done. If they are it gives you a head start. I leant this the hard way...

[Frank]

Indeed, I almost died because of not following that instinct. Almost.

I mean, what're they gonna do if they're not trying to kill you? Well, I know I for one would be waiting until the instant I saw a bit of weaponry and unloading. Or trying the old "So what're you using...?" trick to get them to display their weapon...

All in all, looks like it's been a nicely busy day!

[hr]

"There is only ever one truth. Things are always black or white, there's no such thing as a shade of grey. If you think that something is a shade of grey it simply means that you don't fully understand the situation. The truth is narrow and the path of the pursuit of truth is similarly narrow."

[QuadrAlien]

Alas for my own foolish pride - you'll never see me run, and I won't surrender...

Even so, an acceptable kill recently... though here I was, trying to give Wessex a proper case of arachnophobia for the good of the Hit Squad...


No matter what else for the sig...
Signed, Spider Zakash (recently deceased, now cyborg Hit Squad member)


[hr]

But still at night, when darkness rules again,
Whispering shadows creeping through the lanes,
Evil creatures of the expelled magician,
Oh, it's a fight you'll never win...

[QuadrAlien]

And, just to confirm that I accept my death...



(All right, so it's debated whether it's supposed to be a spider or not, but it's in the manual for the game, which is good enough for this quote.)


[hr]

But still at night, when darkness rules again,
Whispering shadows creeping through the lanes,
Evil creatures of the expelled magician,
Oh, it's a fight you'll never win...

[October]

with 5 people now dead,
this would be a good time to send out a list of the dead.
So these people are not actacked again.
and we assassins don't wast time trying to kill them again.

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.

[Amorphous]

Six dead. And I repeat: WE ARE RE-DISTRIBUTING TARGETS. The only reason we had a list of the dead last time was because we were NOT re-distributing targets, therefore people were not told if one of their targets had been killed off.

If you haven't received an email telling you that one of your targets is dead and been given a new one, you should assume that all your targets are still alive. There is a little bit of wiggle room on this (James and I can't get everything done instantly) but as of last night everything should be up-to-date.

[D-ko]

Quoting Amorphous from 11:53, 21st Feb 2007

If you haven't received an email telling you that one of your targets is dead and been given a new one, you should assume that all your targets are still alive.

Erm...I haven't recieved an email, and two of my targets are definetly dead....I shot 'em, so im fairly sure....

[JM]

Each current assassin has been emailed a verified list of their targets. If you had not previously received any emails then either:

1) none of your tagets had died therefore they remain the same

2) you are not registered to play

I apologise to all players - in redistributing targets to you all i mistakenly forgot to mention who had actually died in one or two emails. the messages you all have recieved by now tell you who your targets are at present.

my bad...please dont sue im broke!

the best of luck to everyone - enjoy the game

james
co-umpire

[hr]

"Life can be full of many problems"; this can be translated into "tormenting you is how the big man gets his jollies"

[October]

well to my knowlage I'm not.

I'm sure I'd of know if I was right?

So why is everyone asking if I'm dead?

[hr]

I never thought I be so grateful that my best friend from college went on to become the director of the CIA.