Because that isn't excessively emotive propaganda at all.
If you can't make your point without resorting to gory photographs, maybe you have no rational point to make at all.
Oh, and I'm not entirely certain of my position regarding abortion, which is why I'm not arguing on this thread. I mostly lean towards a pro-choice position, and the arguments for that position have been made perfectly well by other people already, but I am aware that this is not a black and white argument, which is why I've hesitated to post before.
However, I simply have no time for people who 'argue' using needlessly graphic photographs. It adds nothing to the debate, and is the photographic equivalent of screaming "Won't somebody think of the children?".
[hr][s]What can you see
On the horizon?
Why do the white gulls call?
Across the sea
A pale moon rises.
The ships have come
To carry you home.
[/s]
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Re:
by LeopardSkinQueen on Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:47 pm
[i:1wp3kko0]Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew
Come out and round up everyone that knows more than they do
[/i:1wp3kko0]
Come out and round up everyone that knows more than they do
[/i:1wp3kko0]
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LeopardSkinQueen
- Posts: 2081
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Manic23 on Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:56 pm
[s]LeopardSkinQueen wrote on 19:47, 30th Mar 2004:
Because that isn't excessively emotive propaganda at all.
If you can't make your point without resorting to gory photographs, maybe you have no rational point to make at all.
er, Sorry, I must apologise for posting such nasty, made-up photographs. I must have forgotten that the abortion process doesn't result in this, and in reality it's a lovely procedure where the fet..., sorry, cluster of cells simply vanishes. I cannot actually believe what you have written; THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER AN ABORTION, DID YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING ELSE???
[/b]
However, I simply have no time for people who 'argue' using needlessly graphic photographs. It adds nothing to the debate, and is the photographic equivalent of screaming "Won't [i]somebody think of the children?".
[hr][s]What can you see
On the horizon?
Why do the white gulls call?
Across the sea
A pale moon rises.
The ships have come
To carry you home.
[/s]
[/i]
And, unlike the person who posted a picture of a deer with a gunshot wound to its head on the safari-related thread, I wasn't trying to antagonise anyone, I merely was trying to highlight that abortion does in fact result in the end of a life, and some people believe it is the ending of a 'cluster of cells'. Wow, look at the pictures; the cells have all clustered together to form the shape of a baby!!what a conincidence!!
Now, Leopardskinqueen, could you please see that I posted these pictures to back up my argument, not to piss you off.
I simply have no time for people who take the moral highground (i.e. "all you can do is post nasty things that offend me, therefore your argument is shit") when they can't think of a valid point to put forward themselves. I respect previous pro choice poster opinions such as those of Iohannes and Rachy as they present their argument without belittling mine; try doing the same yourself, I know you're capable of it judging from previous threads.
Because that isn't excessively emotive propaganda at all.
If you can't make your point without resorting to gory photographs, maybe you have no rational point to make at all.
er, Sorry, I must apologise for posting such nasty, made-up photographs. I must have forgotten that the abortion process doesn't result in this, and in reality it's a lovely procedure where the fet..., sorry, cluster of cells simply vanishes. I cannot actually believe what you have written; THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER AN ABORTION, DID YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING ELSE???
[/b]
However, I simply have no time for people who 'argue' using needlessly graphic photographs. It adds nothing to the debate, and is the photographic equivalent of screaming "Won't [i]somebody think of the children?".
[hr][s]What can you see
On the horizon?
Why do the white gulls call?
Across the sea
A pale moon rises.
The ships have come
To carry you home.
[/s]
[/i]
And, unlike the person who posted a picture of a deer with a gunshot wound to its head on the safari-related thread, I wasn't trying to antagonise anyone, I merely was trying to highlight that abortion does in fact result in the end of a life, and some people believe it is the ending of a 'cluster of cells'. Wow, look at the pictures; the cells have all clustered together to form the shape of a baby!!what a conincidence!!
Now, Leopardskinqueen, could you please see that I posted these pictures to back up my argument, not to piss you off.
I simply have no time for people who take the moral highground (i.e. "all you can do is post nasty things that offend me, therefore your argument is shit") when they can't think of a valid point to put forward themselves. I respect previous pro choice poster opinions such as those of Iohannes and Rachy as they present their argument without belittling mine; try doing the same yourself, I know you're capable of it judging from previous threads.
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Manic23
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Re:
by Al on Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:28 pm
One could argue that the only rights the unborn have are the rights that society grants to them. They do not have any innate rights because of the simple reason that they have not been yet born. Existence begins at the moment of conception. Life, most certainly, does not. For as long as there has been pregnancy there have been women driven to end that pregnancy. Abortion was illegal. That never stopped it from happening. If it were to be banned again, it would still happen. Does the phrase "back street abortionist" mean nothing to you? And surely compassion is better served by showing it to the living rather than to those who might have lived. I would far rather live in a country where abortion was allowed and women could seek help and advice in safety than one where women were put at even greater risk by resorting to "treatment" from quacks and charlatans.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
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Al
- Posts: 3992
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Pin Cushion Queen on Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:40 pm
I understand that abortions can take place until quite late in the pregnancy, but I think that most people would undergo them at an early stage. In betwen periods there is a gap of 3-4 weeks. If at the end of this gap a woman's period didn't start I would think that the majority of women would then get tested, and if the pregnancy test was positive, they would then consider the options. Now since by this point in time maybe 4 weeks at most have passed since the feotus was conceived, if that feotus was then aborted it would be roughly 5mm in size. By eight weeks the feotus is approximately 2.4cm in size (taken from NHS direct website).
Look at a ruler. 5mm is tiny. 2.4cm is small too. So when you produce shocking images of a 21 week old feotus it has little relationship with how a 5 week old embryo looks (classed as an embryo until week 8). I would hope that the majority of sensible, intelligent women would not wait till 21 weeks, aside from the photographs you posted, waiting that long could cause serious mental distress to the pregnant woman. Therefore when people say "collections of cells", thats what they mean. They don't mean the awful images you posted, they mean the first few weeks, when thats what it is, it is a collection of cells.
There have been numerous arguements both for and against, though only one from the anti-abortion camp was new to me, and that was that the feotus had unique DNA. This made me seriously consider my position as I had never heard that arguement before, however I remain unchanged in my views.
It was mentioned that giving the baby up for adoption was an option. That is true, however if a baby is given up for adoption they still have ties to their parents. Children given up for adoption now have the right to find out who their parents where. My mother was adopted and she has been researching into her past on and off for the last 15 or so years. This is a natural thing to do, to find out where you come from, and I think the legislation making it easier is a good thing, however it also means that there will always be the possibility of the child getting in contact with the parents. I believe it was even mentioned when the act was first discussed that this might make more people opt for abortion instead.
As mentioned before, a number of the anti-abortion posters seem to be male. I have to confess that this makes me a little less willing to respect their stand, because they have never had and will never have to make that decision. Every month, a day or two before my period is due to start, I get the tiniest bit of tension in my gut. If I feel the smallest twing in my stomach I try to decide if that is the onset of cramps, and thus my period, or not. For a day every month I am more stressed out than I should be, because I know that I would hate to have to take the decision on whether to have an abortion or not. Either decision causes wounds that won't heal lightly. Once my period didn't start till an entire week after it should, and I was frantic. Tell me, as a man, whether any of this sounds like what you go through every month? Whilst I respect that males can have certain strong views on the matter, at the end of the day, it is the woman who first realises she is pregnant, it is the woman who has to go to see the doctors, it is the woman who has to carry the feotus in her body for nine months if she decides to have it, and it is the woman who has to live with the decision and possible guilt if she decides not to have it.
Look at a ruler. 5mm is tiny. 2.4cm is small too. So when you produce shocking images of a 21 week old feotus it has little relationship with how a 5 week old embryo looks (classed as an embryo until week 8). I would hope that the majority of sensible, intelligent women would not wait till 21 weeks, aside from the photographs you posted, waiting that long could cause serious mental distress to the pregnant woman. Therefore when people say "collections of cells", thats what they mean. They don't mean the awful images you posted, they mean the first few weeks, when thats what it is, it is a collection of cells.
There have been numerous arguements both for and against, though only one from the anti-abortion camp was new to me, and that was that the feotus had unique DNA. This made me seriously consider my position as I had never heard that arguement before, however I remain unchanged in my views.
It was mentioned that giving the baby up for adoption was an option. That is true, however if a baby is given up for adoption they still have ties to their parents. Children given up for adoption now have the right to find out who their parents where. My mother was adopted and she has been researching into her past on and off for the last 15 or so years. This is a natural thing to do, to find out where you come from, and I think the legislation making it easier is a good thing, however it also means that there will always be the possibility of the child getting in contact with the parents. I believe it was even mentioned when the act was first discussed that this might make more people opt for abortion instead.
As mentioned before, a number of the anti-abortion posters seem to be male. I have to confess that this makes me a little less willing to respect their stand, because they have never had and will never have to make that decision. Every month, a day or two before my period is due to start, I get the tiniest bit of tension in my gut. If I feel the smallest twing in my stomach I try to decide if that is the onset of cramps, and thus my period, or not. For a day every month I am more stressed out than I should be, because I know that I would hate to have to take the decision on whether to have an abortion or not. Either decision causes wounds that won't heal lightly. Once my period didn't start till an entire week after it should, and I was frantic. Tell me, as a man, whether any of this sounds like what you go through every month? Whilst I respect that males can have certain strong views on the matter, at the end of the day, it is the woman who first realises she is pregnant, it is the woman who has to go to see the doctors, it is the woman who has to carry the feotus in her body for nine months if she decides to have it, and it is the woman who has to live with the decision and possible guilt if she decides not to have it.
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Pin Cushion Queen
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:32 am
Re:
by Manic23 on Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:57 pm
Al, I do see the point you are making about back street abortions, and if I'm being truthful that is the only case where I would tolerate(not accept) abortion, with regard to the safety of the mother. but, despite this, I just can't accept it, maybe I should, but I just can't.
Pin Cushion Queen, I'd like to thank you for putting forward an argument that doesn't base itself on undermining my postings and still gets across your point. I know that the pictures I posted where from a very late termination, but my view still stands that even if they are only cells, they are living, and potential human beings.
I think my reasoning for hating abortion so much is due to the fact that I have a 14 month old brother, and even though at first I was worried about the age gap etc (as I am 20) I just cant imagine how anyone would want to terminate something that will turn into a baby, regardless what the gestation period is at. Though I do realise that no 2 situations or circumstances are the same, and that some see abortion as the only option. obviously there is never going to be a happy medium solution, so debates like this will continue forever.
Pin Cushion Queen, I'd like to thank you for putting forward an argument that doesn't base itself on undermining my postings and still gets across your point. I know that the pictures I posted where from a very late termination, but my view still stands that even if they are only cells, they are living, and potential human beings.
I think my reasoning for hating abortion so much is due to the fact that I have a 14 month old brother, and even though at first I was worried about the age gap etc (as I am 20) I just cant imagine how anyone would want to terminate something that will turn into a baby, regardless what the gestation period is at. Though I do realise that no 2 situations or circumstances are the same, and that some see abortion as the only option. obviously there is never going to be a happy medium solution, so debates like this will continue forever.
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Manic23
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:54 pm
Schrodinger's Baby?
by Concerned on Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:52 am
In a parallel with the Schrodinger paradox, can we know with 100% certainty whether a foetus/baby in the womb will survive outside it at all? Not until it does so...
Which begs the question, can an abortion be considered a killing if we are unsure as to whether the baby will live outside the womb? I think that the answer to this question is no and that therefore the choice over a specific abortion should be left to the indivdual involved. No blanketing laws should be introduced in any country.
I believe that all countries should offer safe and sanitary methods of abortion in hospitals for any who decide to have one.
On a side noe, are all the "pro-lifers" here vegetarian at least? Or is it that you value some life more than others?
Which begs the question, can an abortion be considered a killing if we are unsure as to whether the baby will live outside the womb? I think that the answer to this question is no and that therefore the choice over a specific abortion should be left to the indivdual involved. No blanketing laws should be introduced in any country.
I believe that all countries should offer safe and sanitary methods of abortion in hospitals for any who decide to have one.
On a side noe, are all the "pro-lifers" here vegetarian at least? Or is it that you value some life more than others?
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Concerned
Re:
by LauraB on Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:53 am
I am all for free choice: If a woman decides to abort or keep the "baby" then I would accept her choice.
Personally I have no idea what I would do if I became pregnant and abortion wasn't allowed. I would be beside myself with despair, if despite all my efforts with contraception, if they failed, and I ended up with this "thing" growing inside me, feeding off me. I could not live with myself knowing that I had to have this baby due to law (if abortion was banned). I hate babies so much, and would be a terrible mother, and either that or give it away, so therefore I would want an abortion rather than to put my body through so much physical and mental pain for something I'm going to get rid of in the end anyway. I might feel differently in a few years if I decide I want children, but for now I feel safe in my mind that if despite all my efforts to stop myself from becoming pregnant, I can stop it even if things go wrong. I would be terrified if I got pregnant now, but I would be even more terrified knowing that I couldnt have an abortion.
I do respect other peoples opinions, and they have been very well put across, but how can you not let a poor terrified 14-year-old teenager abort this thing taking over their body?
Yes, as a scientist, a foetus to me is alive, but not independently alive, it cannot respire, feed, or grow on its own - it is just a feeling-less ball of cells, no nerves, no feelings no nothing.
Personally I have no idea what I would do if I became pregnant and abortion wasn't allowed. I would be beside myself with despair, if despite all my efforts with contraception, if they failed, and I ended up with this "thing" growing inside me, feeding off me. I could not live with myself knowing that I had to have this baby due to law (if abortion was banned). I hate babies so much, and would be a terrible mother, and either that or give it away, so therefore I would want an abortion rather than to put my body through so much physical and mental pain for something I'm going to get rid of in the end anyway. I might feel differently in a few years if I decide I want children, but for now I feel safe in my mind that if despite all my efforts to stop myself from becoming pregnant, I can stop it even if things go wrong. I would be terrified if I got pregnant now, but I would be even more terrified knowing that I couldnt have an abortion.
I do respect other peoples opinions, and they have been very well put across, but how can you not let a poor terrified 14-year-old teenager abort this thing taking over their body?
Yes, as a scientist, a foetus to me is alive, but not independently alive, it cannot respire, feed, or grow on its own - it is just a feeling-less ball of cells, no nerves, no feelings no nothing.
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LauraB
Re:
by exnihilo on Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:47 am
I saw a very stupid point on here a couple of pages back, and it is the only one i'm going to address, because I don't want to get drawn into this debate. I will just say that for my part, I don't think abortion should be an issue of choice - it should be a medical decision and in those circumstances the life of the mother must always be put first.
Now, the stupid point: pro-abortion people please, please stop using the "quality of life" argument. That the child might not have a good life is the most dangerous argument you can make, and the one most likely to undermine your case, with which I have some sympathy. You do NOT know what kind of life the child will have, and to deny it the chance to experience adversity and to triumph over it is unspeakable - not to mention likely to result in the loss of some quite remarkable adults somewhere down the line.
[hr]"They are like their beer; foam on top, dregs on the bottom, but the middle excellent." - Voltaire, on the English.
Now, the stupid point: pro-abortion people please, please stop using the "quality of life" argument. That the child might not have a good life is the most dangerous argument you can make, and the one most likely to undermine your case, with which I have some sympathy. You do NOT know what kind of life the child will have, and to deny it the chance to experience adversity and to triumph over it is unspeakable - not to mention likely to result in the loss of some quite remarkable adults somewhere down the line.
[hr]"They are like their beer; foam on top, dregs on the bottom, but the middle excellent." - Voltaire, on the English.
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exnihilo
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Re:
by Manic23 on Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:30 am
[s]Unregisted User Concerned wrote on 20:10, 30th Mar 2004:
On a side note, are all the "pro-lifers" here vegetarian at least? Or is it that you value some life more than others?
Please, don't even think of comparing human life to animal life, it IS a different thing all together and is totally pointless in this debate. I could say the equivilent of 'are there any pro-choices out there who are vegetarian, is it that you hate the thought of killing animals but you can accept terminating a potential human?'
It'll just turn into tit-for-tat rhetoric.
On a side note, are all the "pro-lifers" here vegetarian at least? Or is it that you value some life more than others?
Please, don't even think of comparing human life to animal life, it IS a different thing all together and is totally pointless in this debate. I could say the equivilent of 'are there any pro-choices out there who are vegetarian, is it that you hate the thought of killing animals but you can accept terminating a potential human?'
It'll just turn into tit-for-tat rhetoric.
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Manic23
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:54 pm
Re:
by mossop on Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:33 am
What's with calling people pro- abortion if you're pro-choice? It's not the same thing! Personally I'm against abortion, however I don't think anyone should be denied the right to choose. We are a (supposedly) civilised country and the right to have a choice is fundamental.
[hr]http://www.geocities.com/mossop_2002
Drunken photos, and not so drunken photos
[hr]http://www.geocities.com/mossop_2002
Drunken photos, and not so drunken photos
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a crate. Coincidence? I think not.
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mossop
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Re:
by Manic23 on Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:54 am
how can someone be pro choice but not pro abortion? I really am asking this as a question as i can't understand how someone could say something like "I think woman should be allowed to do whatever they want to themselves as it's their choice, but they shouldn't be allowed the right to abortion?"
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Manic23
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Re:
by Al on Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:06 am
If you are pro-choice, you are in favour of women - with medical agreement - having the right to choose to have an abortion. It does not mean that you are "pro-abortion". Nobody is pro-abortion. That is simply too ridiculous a concept to even contemplate.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
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Al
- Posts: 3992
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by mossop on Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:08 am
I think people should have the right to CHOOSE whether they have an abortion or not. It doesn't mean I'm FOR abortion. That's the difference. I think you're missing the point completely, Manic23.
[hr]http://www.geocities.com/mossop_2002
Drunken photos, and not so drunken photos
[hr]http://www.geocities.com/mossop_2002
Drunken photos, and not so drunken photos
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a crate. Coincidence? I think not.
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mossop
- Posts: 829
- Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:07 am
Re:
by Andrew Cusack on Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:06 pm
[s]mossop wrote on 11:08, 31st Mar 2004:
I think people should have the right to CHOOSE whether they have an abortion or not. It doesn't mean I'm FOR abortion. That's the difference.
There is clearly a difference between supporting abortion's legality and supporting abortion. However, supporting something's legality, in some sense, implicitly supports its morality.
I think a number of people who are pro-choice aren't necesarilly pro-abortion, but in my admitedly limited experience as a 20-year-old with friends of many cultural persuasions it is very rare that you will find someone who passionately believes abortion is evil and a grave injustice who supports its legality.
It's something like saying you're not in support of dictators killing millions upon millions of innocent people, but that you respect Mr. Hitler and Mr. Stalin's right to CHOOSE whether they kill millions upon millions of innocent people.
I think people should have the right to CHOOSE whether they have an abortion or not. It doesn't mean I'm FOR abortion. That's the difference.
There is clearly a difference between supporting abortion's legality and supporting abortion. However, supporting something's legality, in some sense, implicitly supports its morality.
I think a number of people who are pro-choice aren't necesarilly pro-abortion, but in my admitedly limited experience as a 20-year-old with friends of many cultural persuasions it is very rare that you will find someone who passionately believes abortion is evil and a grave injustice who supports its legality.
It's something like saying you're not in support of dictators killing millions upon millions of innocent people, but that you respect Mr. Hitler and Mr. Stalin's right to CHOOSE whether they kill millions upon millions of innocent people.
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Andrew Cusack
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- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:05 am
Re:
by Al on Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:47 pm
"It's something like saying you're not in support of dictators killing millions upon millions of innocent people, but that you respect Mr. Hitler and Mr. Stalin's right to CHOOSE whether they kill millions upon millions of innocent people."
No, it's not. It's really not. And you do your "cause" no favours whatsoever by comparing the two.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
No, it's not. It's really not. And you do your "cause" no favours whatsoever by comparing the two.
[hr]Life is too important to be taken seriously.
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Al
- Posts: 3992
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Rex Mundi on Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:57 pm
[s]Pin Cushion Queen wrote on 23:40, 30th Mar 2004:
Therefore when people say "collections of cells", thats what they mean. They don't mean the awful images you posted, they mean the first few weeks, when thats what it is, it is a collection of cells.
Lets not forget something very important here - human beings are just collections of cells. An adult human just happens to have many more cells; granted slightly more specialised but still just cells. We're not fundamentally different to that "collection of cells" that we choose to abort.
But I do agree that such awful images should not be used. But far from protecting the sensibilites of people here; I don't think it's right to use those images out of repect for the foetuses themselves.
[s]Pin Cushion Queen wrote on 23:40, 30th Mar 2004:
As mentioned before, a number of the anti-abortion posters seem to be male. I have to confess that this makes me a little less willing to respect their stand, because they have never had and will never have to make that decision. Every month, a day or two before my period is due to start, I get the tiniest bit of tension in my gut. If I feel the smallest twing in my stomach I try to decide if that is the onset of cramps, and thus my period, or not. For a day every month I am more stressed out than I should be, because I know that I would hate to have to take the decision on whether to have an abortion or not. Either decision causes wounds that won't heal lightly. Once my period didn't start till an entire week after it should, and I was frantic. Tell me, as a man, whether any of this sounds like what you go through every month? Whilst I respect that males can have certain strong views on the matter, at the end of the day, it is the woman who first realises she is pregnant, it is the woman who has to go to see the doctors, it is the woman who has to carry the feotus in her body for nine months if she decides to have it, and it is the woman who has to live with the decision and possible guilt if she decides not to have it.
I stongly believe a foetus is alive; a being in it's own right from the moment of fertilisation. I may be a man, but I am also a human being and I feel I have to stand up and be counted on this issue. I feel great sympathy for women, it is indeed a very hard decision to take; and I don't blame women who've made that choice in the past - I hope I've made it clear I'm not an anti-abortionist who condemns those who've been through with one as a murderer or any such thing. But in the end; I firmly believe that a foetus has a right to live and I can't just stand by and keep silent about it - even if I am "only" a man.
Secondly; I find it a little suprising to read that it you seem to believe it is entirely a womans decision; choice and indeed problem. I have to ask where does the father come into this? What about his rights and wants for his foetus/child/offspring. It's a gross simlification to suggest there is just one person involved in these situations. While I'd argue there are 3 people involved in an abortion; I hope we would at the very least agree there are 2 people involved.
[s]mossop wrote on 11:08, 31st Mar 2004:
I think people should have the right to CHOOSE whether they have an abortion or not. It doesn't mean I'm FOR abortion. That's the difference. I think you're missing the point completely, Manic23.
Pro-abortion means literally "Favoring or supporting legalized abortion." (dictionary.com). So if you think people should have the choice to have an abortion, then you logically think it should be legal. If you don't want to be called pro-abortion then please, don't express a pro-abortionist viewpoint. Otherwise please accept it; it's a perfectly reasonable label.
Therefore when people say "collections of cells", thats what they mean. They don't mean the awful images you posted, they mean the first few weeks, when thats what it is, it is a collection of cells.
Lets not forget something very important here - human beings are just collections of cells. An adult human just happens to have many more cells; granted slightly more specialised but still just cells. We're not fundamentally different to that "collection of cells" that we choose to abort.
But I do agree that such awful images should not be used. But far from protecting the sensibilites of people here; I don't think it's right to use those images out of repect for the foetuses themselves.
[s]Pin Cushion Queen wrote on 23:40, 30th Mar 2004:
As mentioned before, a number of the anti-abortion posters seem to be male. I have to confess that this makes me a little less willing to respect their stand, because they have never had and will never have to make that decision. Every month, a day or two before my period is due to start, I get the tiniest bit of tension in my gut. If I feel the smallest twing in my stomach I try to decide if that is the onset of cramps, and thus my period, or not. For a day every month I am more stressed out than I should be, because I know that I would hate to have to take the decision on whether to have an abortion or not. Either decision causes wounds that won't heal lightly. Once my period didn't start till an entire week after it should, and I was frantic. Tell me, as a man, whether any of this sounds like what you go through every month? Whilst I respect that males can have certain strong views on the matter, at the end of the day, it is the woman who first realises she is pregnant, it is the woman who has to go to see the doctors, it is the woman who has to carry the feotus in her body for nine months if she decides to have it, and it is the woman who has to live with the decision and possible guilt if she decides not to have it.
I stongly believe a foetus is alive; a being in it's own right from the moment of fertilisation. I may be a man, but I am also a human being and I feel I have to stand up and be counted on this issue. I feel great sympathy for women, it is indeed a very hard decision to take; and I don't blame women who've made that choice in the past - I hope I've made it clear I'm not an anti-abortionist who condemns those who've been through with one as a murderer or any such thing. But in the end; I firmly believe that a foetus has a right to live and I can't just stand by and keep silent about it - even if I am "only" a man.
Secondly; I find it a little suprising to read that it you seem to believe it is entirely a womans decision; choice and indeed problem. I have to ask where does the father come into this? What about his rights and wants for his foetus/child/offspring. It's a gross simlification to suggest there is just one person involved in these situations. While I'd argue there are 3 people involved in an abortion; I hope we would at the very least agree there are 2 people involved.
[s]mossop wrote on 11:08, 31st Mar 2004:
I think people should have the right to CHOOSE whether they have an abortion or not. It doesn't mean I'm FOR abortion. That's the difference. I think you're missing the point completely, Manic23.
Pro-abortion means literally "Favoring or supporting legalized abortion." (dictionary.com). So if you think people should have the choice to have an abortion, then you logically think it should be legal. If you don't want to be called pro-abortion then please, don't express a pro-abortionist viewpoint. Otherwise please accept it; it's a perfectly reasonable label.
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Rex Mundi
Re:
by Manic23 on Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:44 pm
[s]mossop wrote on 11:08, 31st Mar 2004:
That's the difference. I think you're missing the point completely, Manic23.
[hr]http://www.geocities.com/mossop_2002
Drunken photos, and not so drunken photos
Missing what point? Is the point of this discussion not to voice your opinion on abortion, which I have clearly done. I merely stated that I can't see how someone can be totally anti abortion but staunchly pro-choice, as the two are intrinsically linked.
I see that this debate is going to continue to repeat itself, so I'm sure some of you will be glad to know I plan to have no further part in it. I would only get so mad that I'd end up offending other people, so I think its best for me to quit now.
Cheerio All
That's the difference. I think you're missing the point completely, Manic23.
[hr]http://www.geocities.com/mossop_2002
Drunken photos, and not so drunken photos
Missing what point? Is the point of this discussion not to voice your opinion on abortion, which I have clearly done. I merely stated that I can't see how someone can be totally anti abortion but staunchly pro-choice, as the two are intrinsically linked.
I see that this debate is going to continue to repeat itself, so I'm sure some of you will be glad to know I plan to have no further part in it. I would only get so mad that I'd end up offending other people, so I think its best for me to quit now.
Cheerio All
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Manic23
- Posts: 1169
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:54 pm
Re:
by RaphX on Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:39 am
[s]Manic23 wrote on 18:44, 31st Mar 2004:
I see that this debate is going to continue to repeat itself, so I'm sure some of you will be glad to know I plan to have no further part in it. I would only get so mad that I'd end up offending other people, so I think its best for me to quit now.
Cheerio All
The door is always open for you to return, you know. Make sure you purchase yourself some IQ beforehand, mind.
I see that this debate is going to continue to repeat itself, so I'm sure some of you will be glad to know I plan to have no further part in it. I would only get so mad that I'd end up offending other people, so I think its best for me to quit now.
Cheerio All
The door is always open for you to return, you know. Make sure you purchase yourself some IQ beforehand, mind.
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RaphX
83 posts
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