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Yes there are! :o)
by donnamatrix on Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:21 pm
[s]LizBot wrote on 16:24, 22nd Sep 2004:
Are there any other vegans in St. Andrews? I'd like to have a potluck dinner or something.
Hi Liz,
How exciting to hear from another vegan! There are a few of us about in St. Andrews, it's just hard to get us all in the same place...which is why we have Vegesoc! A friend and myself thought it would be cool if there were a society for veggies/vegans in town, where we could meet and chat and things, so we set it up at the end of last year. We've got a stall at the Socs Fayre on Sunday - come and find us! There are some posters up in halls too. I'm also currently bugging restaurants and shops in town asking about lecithins and the like - they're all being very helpful so there'll be a kind of mini guide to vegetarian and vegan eating/shopping in St. And ready by Sunday.
Do come and say hello....it'd be great to meet you.
Any other vegans on the Sinner...?
Are there any other vegans in St. Andrews? I'd like to have a potluck dinner or something.
Hi Liz,
How exciting to hear from another vegan! There are a few of us about in St. Andrews, it's just hard to get us all in the same place...which is why we have Vegesoc! A friend and myself thought it would be cool if there were a society for veggies/vegans in town, where we could meet and chat and things, so we set it up at the end of last year. We've got a stall at the Socs Fayre on Sunday - come and find us! There are some posters up in halls too. I'm also currently bugging restaurants and shops in town asking about lecithins and the like - they're all being very helpful so there'll be a kind of mini guide to vegetarian and vegan eating/shopping in St. And ready by Sunday.
Do come and say hello....it'd be great to meet you.
Any other vegans on the Sinner...?
[s]"Those who claim to care about the well-being of human beings and the preservation of our environment should become vegetarians for that reason alone. They would thereby increase the amount of grain available to feed people elsewhere, reduce pollution, save water and energy, and cease contributing to the clearing of forests."
--Peter Singer[/s]
--Peter Singer[/s]
-
donnamatrix
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:17 pm
A brief explanation
by LizBot on Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:09 pm
[s]Ashley wrote on 15:49, 23rd Sep 2004:
Meat is murder?
In reply to the last few messages,
I am assuming here that you genuinely want to know why vegans think we ought not to consume animals and their by-products.
Well, that question warrants an answer far more in depth than can be written on a message board. Entire books have been written on the subject of veganism, and those who adhere to this way of life. Common reasons for going vegan are health, environmental, and ethical concerns. I feel that the basis for vegan ethics lies in the belief that animals have rights.
Most people would do not like the idea of harming animals, but many of us fail to make the connection between the meat on our plates and the living, breathing, feeling being that it came from. Most people are outraged by cases of animal abuse like say, someone torturing a dog. I am assuming that we can then agree that it is wrong to cause unnecessary pain and suffering to an animal. We don’t need to eat animals. All of a human’s nutritional needs can be adequately met by following a plant-based diet. In fact, studies have shown that diets high in meat are associated with high cholesterol, obesity, and cancer. Therefore, by eating animal products we are causing unnecessary pain and suffering to innocent animals, which we previously agreed was morally wrong.
There is no nutrient found exclusively in meat and animal products. Protein is abundant in plants and virtually all whole plant foods contain some protein. It is a misconception that plants are lacking in some of the essential amino acids. Some of the best sources of protein are whole grains, beans and legumes, nuts and seeds. Soy products are excellent protein sources, and tofu contains all nine amino acids in a highly digestible form. The majority of us in the developed world eat too much protein, and this has the effect of making urine more acidic, causing the body to excrete calcium. Calcium, by the way, is abundant in fortified soymilk, almonds, figs, broccoli, and dark leafy greens, to name a few. Omega-3 fatty acids can be obtained from flax or hempseed oil. Vitamin B12 is manufactured by neither plants nor animals. It comes from microscopic bacteria and fungi which are naturally present in soil, air, water, and fermented foods, and grows in the digestive tracts of animals and is incorporated into their tissues and secretions, which is why it can be found in meat. A good source of B12 for vegans is nutritional yeast (eg Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula brand).
Those are just the nutrients that people seem to be most concerned about when contemplating a vegan diet. I often refer to a book called “Becoming Vegan” by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina, for nutritional concerns.
Back to the question of ethics, there is no denying that modern animal agriculture is cruel and that the brief lives of these animals are miserable and painful. I do not have time or space to describe to you the horrors of factory farming, and I feel that it words to not adequately convey just how horrible it is. While I do not agree with all of the philosophy or politics of Vegan Outreach, try www.whyvegan.com for some more info. Any animal rights book will also have information on where the majority of our meat comes from. There are also some great documentaries out there that I’d love to show if people are interested and curious.
Regardless of how well we treat our farm animals, I believe that they have rights and therefore should not have property status. I do not feel that animals were put on this earth for humans to use as we see fit.
This barely scratches the surface of this issue. It is something that should be discussed and talked about at great length, but not on a message board.
Tom Regan’s book “The Case for Animal Rights” was revolutionary and is one of the best books ever written on the topic. A great book to start out with is Gary Francione’s “Introduction to Animal Rights”. “Rain Without Thunder” is also excellent. Also, the Internet is a wealth of information on this topic, and any search of "vegan" or "animal rights" will produce numerous results.
Hope this was somewhat helpful at least.
Meat is murder?
In reply to the last few messages,
I am assuming here that you genuinely want to know why vegans think we ought not to consume animals and their by-products.
Well, that question warrants an answer far more in depth than can be written on a message board. Entire books have been written on the subject of veganism, and those who adhere to this way of life. Common reasons for going vegan are health, environmental, and ethical concerns. I feel that the basis for vegan ethics lies in the belief that animals have rights.
Most people would do not like the idea of harming animals, but many of us fail to make the connection between the meat on our plates and the living, breathing, feeling being that it came from. Most people are outraged by cases of animal abuse like say, someone torturing a dog. I am assuming that we can then agree that it is wrong to cause unnecessary pain and suffering to an animal. We don’t need to eat animals. All of a human’s nutritional needs can be adequately met by following a plant-based diet. In fact, studies have shown that diets high in meat are associated with high cholesterol, obesity, and cancer. Therefore, by eating animal products we are causing unnecessary pain and suffering to innocent animals, which we previously agreed was morally wrong.
There is no nutrient found exclusively in meat and animal products. Protein is abundant in plants and virtually all whole plant foods contain some protein. It is a misconception that plants are lacking in some of the essential amino acids. Some of the best sources of protein are whole grains, beans and legumes, nuts and seeds. Soy products are excellent protein sources, and tofu contains all nine amino acids in a highly digestible form. The majority of us in the developed world eat too much protein, and this has the effect of making urine more acidic, causing the body to excrete calcium. Calcium, by the way, is abundant in fortified soymilk, almonds, figs, broccoli, and dark leafy greens, to name a few. Omega-3 fatty acids can be obtained from flax or hempseed oil. Vitamin B12 is manufactured by neither plants nor animals. It comes from microscopic bacteria and fungi which are naturally present in soil, air, water, and fermented foods, and grows in the digestive tracts of animals and is incorporated into their tissues and secretions, which is why it can be found in meat. A good source of B12 for vegans is nutritional yeast (eg Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula brand).
Those are just the nutrients that people seem to be most concerned about when contemplating a vegan diet. I often refer to a book called “Becoming Vegan” by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina, for nutritional concerns.
Back to the question of ethics, there is no denying that modern animal agriculture is cruel and that the brief lives of these animals are miserable and painful. I do not have time or space to describe to you the horrors of factory farming, and I feel that it words to not adequately convey just how horrible it is. While I do not agree with all of the philosophy or politics of Vegan Outreach, try www.whyvegan.com for some more info. Any animal rights book will also have information on where the majority of our meat comes from. There are also some great documentaries out there that I’d love to show if people are interested and curious.
Regardless of how well we treat our farm animals, I believe that they have rights and therefore should not have property status. I do not feel that animals were put on this earth for humans to use as we see fit.
This barely scratches the surface of this issue. It is something that should be discussed and talked about at great length, but not on a message board.
Tom Regan’s book “The Case for Animal Rights” was revolutionary and is one of the best books ever written on the topic. A great book to start out with is Gary Francione’s “Introduction to Animal Rights”. “Rain Without Thunder” is also excellent. Also, the Internet is a wealth of information on this topic, and any search of "vegan" or "animal rights" will produce numerous results.
Hope this was somewhat helpful at least.
-
LizBot
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:21 pm
Re:
by LizBot on Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:54 pm
Yep, cheese was once one of my favourite foods. When I became vegetarian and did some research, I found that my reasons for not eating meat also applied to eggs and dairy.
It is not as immediately obvious how eating things like dairy products causes suffering. It's just taking something that the cow is going to produce anyways, right?
The seemingly happy cows we see grazing in nice pastures in the countryside is not representative of how the vast majority of animal agriculture works. Milk is factory farmed in the much the same manner as meat - geared towards generating the greatest amount of profit at the smallest cost. Dairy cows in factory farms are basically "milk machines". To be most profitable, they are kept in a state of constant lactation, either through the use of hormones or artificial insemenation to keep the cow constantly pregnant. They are mechanically milked several times a day, and it is not uncommon for a dairy cow to produce 100 pounds of milk per day (10 times more than it naturally would). This results in a very high incidence of chronic mastitis.
A dairy cow inevitably ends up in the same slaughterhouse as a beef cow - in fact, this is where most hamburger meat comes from. There are no "retirement homes" for these cows. A dairy cow that could normally live up to 20 years will typically be slaughtered after 4 or 5 years, when its milk production declines.
Male calves born to dairy cows are separated from their mother's almost immediately after birth. This is very traumatizing for both individuals and sows are known to call out for their young, become despondent, and will often stop eating for several days after separation. The calves have perhaps an even worse fate - they become veal. In order to make that tender and pale meat so prized by connaisseurs, these calves are kept chained into tiny stalls that do not permit them to move and are kept constantly anemic for their brief lives of 18-20 weeks.
In addition, if one believes in animal rights, they feel that animals cannot be treated like property and any animal exploitation, even "free-range" or "organic" would be wrong.
P.S. You can get vegan (soy) "cheese"! I tried "cheezly" from the health foods store in St Andrews and really liked it!
It is not as immediately obvious how eating things like dairy products causes suffering. It's just taking something that the cow is going to produce anyways, right?
The seemingly happy cows we see grazing in nice pastures in the countryside is not representative of how the vast majority of animal agriculture works. Milk is factory farmed in the much the same manner as meat - geared towards generating the greatest amount of profit at the smallest cost. Dairy cows in factory farms are basically "milk machines". To be most profitable, they are kept in a state of constant lactation, either through the use of hormones or artificial insemenation to keep the cow constantly pregnant. They are mechanically milked several times a day, and it is not uncommon for a dairy cow to produce 100 pounds of milk per day (10 times more than it naturally would). This results in a very high incidence of chronic mastitis.
A dairy cow inevitably ends up in the same slaughterhouse as a beef cow - in fact, this is where most hamburger meat comes from. There are no "retirement homes" for these cows. A dairy cow that could normally live up to 20 years will typically be slaughtered after 4 or 5 years, when its milk production declines.
Male calves born to dairy cows are separated from their mother's almost immediately after birth. This is very traumatizing for both individuals and sows are known to call out for their young, become despondent, and will often stop eating for several days after separation. The calves have perhaps an even worse fate - they become veal. In order to make that tender and pale meat so prized by connaisseurs, these calves are kept chained into tiny stalls that do not permit them to move and are kept constantly anemic for their brief lives of 18-20 weeks.
In addition, if one believes in animal rights, they feel that animals cannot be treated like property and any animal exploitation, even "free-range" or "organic" would be wrong.
P.S. You can get vegan (soy) "cheese"! I tried "cheezly" from the health foods store in St Andrews and really liked it!
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LizBot
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:21 pm
Re:
by Steveo on Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:19 pm
LizBot Wrote:
Most people are outraged by cases of animal abuse like say, someone torturing a dog
Have you been in an abattoir?
I have.
The methods of killing a cow, for example, are humane and cause little pain or distress to the animal
Torture of a dog is sadistic and sick.
Meat is an excellent source of necessary amino acids and has the advantage of tasting great to me at least.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
Most people are outraged by cases of animal abuse like say, someone torturing a dog
Have you been in an abattoir?
I have.
The methods of killing a cow, for example, are humane and cause little pain or distress to the animal
Torture of a dog is sadistic and sick.
Meat is an excellent source of necessary amino acids and has the advantage of tasting great to me at least.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
Get off my internet.
-
Steveo
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:03 pm
Re:
by Guest on Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:43 pm
[s]Steveo wrote on 17:19, 23rd Sep 2004:
[i]LizBot Wrote:
Most people are outraged by cases of animal abuse like say, someone torturing a dog
Have you been in an abattoir?
I have.
The methods of killing a cow, for example, are humane and cause little pain or distress to the animal
Torture of a dog is sadistic and sick.
Meat is an excellent source of necessary amino acids and has the advantage of tasting great to me at least.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
[/i]
The methods of killing a cow are humane? Hardly. Ew. Well, perhaps things are different in this country than in the States. The cows I saw on my way here from the airport looked far happier than the U.S. cows (they are given more space, fresher grass, and it seems more time in the field). In the U.S., animals are crammed into small areas in places called factory farms, slaughtered by the thousands, usually by pretty crude methods (for example, bleeding to deaht), and...well, there's nothing human about it. Nothing.
[i]LizBot Wrote:
Most people are outraged by cases of animal abuse like say, someone torturing a dog
Have you been in an abattoir?
I have.
The methods of killing a cow, for example, are humane and cause little pain or distress to the animal
Torture of a dog is sadistic and sick.
Meat is an excellent source of necessary amino acids and has the advantage of tasting great to me at least.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
[/i]
The methods of killing a cow are humane? Hardly. Ew. Well, perhaps things are different in this country than in the States. The cows I saw on my way here from the airport looked far happier than the U.S. cows (they are given more space, fresher grass, and it seems more time in the field). In the U.S., animals are crammed into small areas in places called factory farms, slaughtered by the thousands, usually by pretty crude methods (for example, bleeding to deaht), and...well, there's nothing human about it. Nothing.
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Guest
Re:
by Steveo on Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:56 pm
[s]Unregisted User wrote on 17:29, 23rd Sep 2004:
The methods of killing a cow are humane? Hardly. Ew. Well, perhaps things are different in this country than in the States. The cows I saw on my way here from the airport looked far happier than the U.S. cows (they are given more space, fresher grass, and it seems more time in the field). In the U.S., animals are crammed into small areas in places called factory farms, slaughtered by the thousands, usually by pretty crude methods (for example, bleeding to deaht), and...well, there's nothing human about it. Nothing.
Cows here bleed to death, it's to prevent the blood congealing in the carcass, but the point is the cow feels no pain as it has a tiny bolt shot to the brain which renders it all but a beating heart and legs.
[hr][s]
What a beautiful world this will be ... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
The methods of killing a cow are humane? Hardly. Ew. Well, perhaps things are different in this country than in the States. The cows I saw on my way here from the airport looked far happier than the U.S. cows (they are given more space, fresher grass, and it seems more time in the field). In the U.S., animals are crammed into small areas in places called factory farms, slaughtered by the thousands, usually by pretty crude methods (for example, bleeding to deaht), and...well, there's nothing human about it. Nothing.
Cows here bleed to death, it's to prevent the blood congealing in the carcass, but the point is the cow feels no pain as it has a tiny bolt shot to the brain which renders it all but a beating heart and legs.
[hr][s]
What a beautiful world this will be ... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
Get off my internet.
-
Steveo
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:03 pm
Re:
by Steveo on Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:07 pm
Isn't it true that animal rights recieve more money (and attention) from the public than childrens charities?
People need to sort out their priorities.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
People need to sort out their priorities.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
Get off my internet.
-
Steveo
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:03 pm
Re:
by LizBot on Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:07 pm
Have you been in an abattoir?
I have.
The methods of killing a cow, for example, are humane and cause little pain or distress to the animal
Torture of a dog is sadistic and sick.
Meat is an excellent source of necessary amino acids and has the advantage of tasting great to me at least.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
[/i]
These are some picture's and a printout of a report given by Gail Eisnits who investigeted slaughterhouse conditions.
http://www.ca4a.org/info/slaughterhouse/
http://www.ca4a.org/info/farmtofork.html
I have few comments about what you wrote:
Firstly, in theory the bolt shot is meant to reduce the discomfort felt by the animal as it is strung up, cut open and bled. However, factory farm workers operate under time constraints and quite often the cows remain fully conscious as the shot is administered improperly or not at all.
The way you write gives the impression that these animals live a blissful life and then die a painless death. However, up to the point of slaughter, the animal has no doubt had to endure a lifetime of being crammed in close quarters with other animals, barely able to move about and go about its natural behaviour. It also must endure the stress of transporrt to the slaghterhouse, crammed into trucks for several hours usually without food or water.
Pigs have been shown to be as intelligent and friendly as dogs. Animals are not brainless food machines. They are undeniably aware to some degree of their surroundings and what is going on. The sounds and smells of death are all over a slaughterhouse. I fully believe that these animals know they are going to die, and I think that this would cause them some "distress".
But all this is besides the point. No matter how "humanely" you kill an animal, it's still killing them, thus violating their most basic rights.
Yep, I totally agree with you that torturing a dog is sadistic and sick. It is causing unnecessary pain and suffering and that is wrong. Eating animals causes them pain and suffering, and we do not need to eat animals to live.
As I said earlier, there are lots of great plant sources of essential amino acids.
I have.
The methods of killing a cow, for example, are humane and cause little pain or distress to the animal
Torture of a dog is sadistic and sick.
Meat is an excellent source of necessary amino acids and has the advantage of tasting great to me at least.
[hr][s]What a beautiful world this will be .... what a glorious time to be free[/s]
[/i]
These are some picture's and a printout of a report given by Gail Eisnits who investigeted slaughterhouse conditions.
http://www.ca4a.org/info/slaughterhouse/
http://www.ca4a.org/info/farmtofork.html
I have few comments about what you wrote:
Firstly, in theory the bolt shot is meant to reduce the discomfort felt by the animal as it is strung up, cut open and bled. However, factory farm workers operate under time constraints and quite often the cows remain fully conscious as the shot is administered improperly or not at all.
The way you write gives the impression that these animals live a blissful life and then die a painless death. However, up to the point of slaughter, the animal has no doubt had to endure a lifetime of being crammed in close quarters with other animals, barely able to move about and go about its natural behaviour. It also must endure the stress of transporrt to the slaghterhouse, crammed into trucks for several hours usually without food or water.
Pigs have been shown to be as intelligent and friendly as dogs. Animals are not brainless food machines. They are undeniably aware to some degree of their surroundings and what is going on. The sounds and smells of death are all over a slaughterhouse. I fully believe that these animals know they are going to die, and I think that this would cause them some "distress".
But all this is besides the point. No matter how "humanely" you kill an animal, it's still killing them, thus violating their most basic rights.
Yep, I totally agree with you that torturing a dog is sadistic and sick. It is causing unnecessary pain and suffering and that is wrong. Eating animals causes them pain and suffering, and we do not need to eat animals to live.
As I said earlier, there are lots of great plant sources of essential amino acids.
-
LizBot
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:21 pm
Re:
by Marco Biagi on Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:48 pm
I'm a vegetarian on ethical grounds. Why should I be vegan if I could purchase all my animal products from non-lethal, free-range, humanely-treated sources. This isn't meant as an attack, it's meant as a genuine question. I do after all have no objection to pets. And I know it's a big 'if'. Almost as big as what's wrong with eating chocolate if its all fairly traded. I'm genuinely curious.
[hr]What's the point of curry if it doesn't make your mouth bleed?
[hr]What's the point of curry if it doesn't make your mouth bleed?
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Marco Biagi
- Posts: 1218
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Dan Canaveral on Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:27 am
I don't think anyone's realistically going to challenge the food chain, but the mass harvesting of animals in conditions that can only be described as a living hell is hardly fundamental to the food chain. Packed into live transport lorries so tightly they frequently die in transit, debeaking live chickens, and using genital electrocution as an acceptable way of pre-stunning an animal before killing it - all of this is surely at odds with what most people, omnivores or otherwise, consider to be ethical. And this is how the majority of meat is harvested.
It's often said that if abbatoirs had glass walls most of the world would be vegetarian. I doubt that most people who eat meat, when push comes to shove, would actually grab a chicken, slit its throat, gouge off its leg and pan-fry it for dinner, but if you believe in eating meat, then I think you have to be prepared to do that, unless you're an utter hypocrite and coward.
And if you are prepared to do all that, then fair play.
It's often said that if abbatoirs had glass walls most of the world would be vegetarian. I doubt that most people who eat meat, when push comes to shove, would actually grab a chicken, slit its throat, gouge off its leg and pan-fry it for dinner, but if you believe in eating meat, then I think you have to be prepared to do that, unless you're an utter hypocrite and coward.
And if you are prepared to do all that, then fair play.
[s]Get off my battlefield[/s]
-
Dan Canaveral
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:18 pm
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