National Anthem

[flarewearer]

[s]kas48 wrote on 03:13, 8th Mar 2005:
you just don't get it, do you? your loss not mine - i won't worry about it anymore.

ps: if you're american, stay out of it.


I for one don't, so please define what your criteria for being a "true" Scot are?

[hr]
[s]Have you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow?
You need butter, milk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw.[/s]

[Rob Milsom]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 19:14, 3rd Mar 2005:
[s]Rob Milsom wrote on 12:13, 30th Nov 2004:[i]
Would be good to have at least some Gaelic in the national anthem regardless.

Ought we not then to have some Scots, Lalands, Doric, etc, etc, etc in there too?
[/i]

Short answer - no. Long answer, no, for reasons that I don't have the time to type out now

[David Bean]

LonelyPilgrim was talking about facts, ergo whether he's American or Martian really doesn't come into the case.

I'm Scottish, but more interested in being British than anything else, simply because there's more diversity in the UK as a whole than in Scotland alone, and since it's my birthright to embrace it all as my culture and heritage, I'd rather do that than be parochial about it.

Any road, my parents are both English, so apart from being British, who knows what I am?

[hr]"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26

[lbpsych]

[s]David Bean wrote on 10:27, 8th Mar 2005: Any road, my parents are both English, so apart from being British, who knows what I am?

And conversely, my mother was born in Yorkshire, but regards herself as Scottish/British because her parents were Scottish and she had quite a cloistered 'Scottish' upbringing (really - her accent was Dundonian until she went to school!).

That's always left me quite confused - especially when I moved up to Scotland and was told firmly that I was English when I'd considered myself just British. A lot of asian kids I knew in Yorkshire also thought of themselves as British and Pakistani rather than English. National identity is a tricky psychological issue in many people, but within Britain it's particularly difficult because there's no legal distinction between Scots, English and the Welsh - we can all move to any bit of Britain we like and our nationality remains British (legally).

Anyway, I think that the different bits of Britain should all have their own anthem, with the dreadful GSTQ being used for British things. I like Jerusalem for England, but we probably couldn't have that because it's very Judeo-Christian. Having Land of Hope and Glory at the Commonwealth games seems wierd since I thought Elgar wrote it about Britain. What does Scotland have played at the Commonwealth games?

[Bitterandtwisted]

What about "You canny shove yer granny aff a bus"?

[hr]

Help! Monarchists!!

[exnihilo]

[s]Rob Milsom wrote on 09:49, 8th Mar 2005:
[s]exnihilo wrote on 19:14, 3rd Mar 2005:[/
Ought we not then to have some Scots, Lalands, Doric, etc, etc, etc in there too?

Short answer - no. Long answer, no, for reasons that I don't have the time to type out now
[/i]

If it's no to those, it's no to Gaelic as well. This bizarre status that Gaelic has assumed in the mind of some Scots has always puzzled me. Presumably it's because Gaelic is so demonstrably different to English in grammar and vocabulary where the others are not? It simply wasn't ever (and most assuredly is not now) spoken in most of Scotland, any more than Norn was. And before some Nationalist bollocks me for have the temerity to say such a thing, my PhD is in this area, I DO know what I'm talking about. Sorry to rain on your absurdly parochial parade, kids.

[flarewearer]

[s]lbpsych wrote on 11:20, 8th Mar 2005:
[s]David Bean wrote on 10:27, 8th Mar 2005:[i]
Having Land of Hope and Glory at the Commonwealth games seems wierd since I thought Elgar wrote it about Britain.[/i]

correct, its part of the terribly british "pomp and circumstance marches", good flag-waving music if ever there was some. Its actually only the chorus to March No. 1, someone later put lyrics to it, apparantely at the King's request. (Edward VII i believe). No. 4 is actually the better tune... ...but its no anthem.

The problem with God Save the Queen, apart from it being terrible, is that it is also the tune to many other nation's anthems, and theres a pretty naff American version called "My Country Tis of Thee" or something like that. And apparantely Rule Britannia is racist or something like that. Bloody PC!

What does Scotland have played at the Commonwealth games?


that dreadful dirge "Scotland the Brave" I believe

[hr]
[s]Have you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow?
You need butter, milk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw.[/s]

[flarewearer]

[s]exnihilo wrote on 11:56, 8th Mar 2005:
If it's no to those, it's no to Gaelic as well. This bizarre status that Gaelic has assumed in the mind of some Scots has always puzzled me. Presumably it's because Gaelic is so demonstrably different to English in grammar and vocabulary where the others are not? It simply wasn't ever (and most assuredly is not now) spoken in most of Scotland, any more than Norn was. And before some Nationalist bollocks me for have the temerity to say such a thing, my PhD is in this area, I DO know what I'm talking about. Sorry to rain on your absurdly parochial parade, kids.


I heartily agree exnihilo, I find it particularly annoying to have a language that means nothing to me or my heritage foisted upon me by a vocal minority. I'm not too clued up on it, but was "Scots" not the language of the majority of Scottish people?

And losing an evenings' programming once a week for some Gaelic drivel TV is just not on, not in the lowlands anyway where this language has never been of any significance.

[hr]
[s]Have you ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow?
You need butter, milk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw.[/s]

[lbpsych]

[s]flarewearer wrote on 12:04, 8th Mar 2005:The problem with God Save the Queen, apart from it being terrible, is that it is also the tune to many other nation's anthems, and theres a pretty naff American version called "My Country Tis of Thee" or something like that.

I always found that amusing - I remember being in Illinois as an exchange student and hearing the school band playing it and I said "Why are you playing some arrangements of 'God Save the King'?" to which my exchange partner gave me a baffled look and said "It's the Variations on 'America'!"

[kas48]

[s]David Bean wrote on 10:27, 8th Mar 2005:
LonelyPilgrim was talking about facts, ergo whether he's American or Martian really doesn't come into the case.

I'm Scottish, but more interested in being British than anything else, simply because there's more diversity in the UK as a whole than in Scotland alone, and since it's my birthright to embrace it all as my culture and heritage, I'd rather do that than be parochial about it.

Any road, my parents are both English, so apart from being British, who knows what I am?

[hr]"[i]For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26
[/i]


you are english, certainly

[kas48]

[s]kas48 wrote on 14:53, 8th Mar 2005:
[s]David Bean wrote on 10:27, 8th Mar 2005:[i]
LonelyPilgrim was talking about facts, ergo whether he's American or Martian really doesn't come into the case.

I'm Scottish, but more interested in being British than anything else, simply because there's more diversity in the UK as a whole than in Scotland alone, and since it's my birthright to embrace it all as my culture and heritage, I'd rather do that than be parochial about it.

Any road, my parents are both English, so apart from being British, who knows what I am?

[hr]"[i]For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?- Matthew 16:26
[/i]


and religious, and probably a Yah from what you say

[Pender Native]

David's no Yah - a Yah wouldn't be seen dead in that hat!

[exnihilo]

[s]kas48 wrote on 14:55, 8th Mar 2005:
and religious, and probably a Yah from what you say


And you are parochial, pea-brained, judgemental and ignorant. What a wonderfully diverse world we live in!

[flarewearer]

[s]kas48 wrote on 14:53, 8th Mar 2005:
you are english, certainly


[s]kas48 wrote on 14:55, 8th Mar 2005:
and religious, and probably a Yah from what you say


Again, you astound me with your stupidity Kas48;

a/ I can vouch that David is Scottish, and Im pretty sure he doesnt want to be classed under your nationality classification system of "anyone that doesnt think like me obviously isn't Scotiish."

b/ What is this mysterious system you use to magically deduce someone's nationality based on a few sentences the write on a message board? I wish i could stereotype people as easy as you can.

c/ What the fuck has following a religion got to do with your nationality?

d/ Please go and learn some basic Scottish and British history and politics, you might talk less complete and utter shite for it.

[LonelyPilgrim]

"My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing.
Land where our fathers died,
Land of the Pilgrim's pride,
From every mountain side,
Let freedom ring!"

I've never really liked that one, actually.

And, while I may be American, my heritage is half Scottish. My family, while in America at the time, were significant supporters of the '45. I believe it was John Adair (it's the first name I'm unsure of) of Tennesee who sold off all of his considerable land to buy clothes, weapons, ammunition, a ship to take them, and a band of mercenaries to support Bonnie Charlie. My family has kept the toast "To the King, over the water" ever since.

And I wouldn't be bringing any of this up, if I didn't feel that I need to justify myself so you will grant me the privilege of having an opinion.

What's really sad is the way that Scotland treats those of Scottish heritage in the rest of the world. Most countries welcome the persons of their diaspora back with open arms, Ireland being a fine example. But England and Scotland (and how I love the irony of them having this in common!) want nothing to do with their diaspora. England looks down on persons with English heritage elsewhere as "colonials", while Scotland seems to regard us as little short of traitors for daring to regard ourselves as even the slightest bit Scottish while not being born and raised speaking Gaelic in some glen.

Nevermind that nationality is supposed to have little or nothing to do with political boundaries on some map. Or that most of the Scots who left Scotland had little choice. But I'm sorry, you only want to remember the Clearances when you want to feel sorry for YOURselves... forget the poor buggers who actually had to LEAVE!

And what really pisses me off, personally, is that when I first came here, I was in love with my Scottish heritage, and paid not one bit of attention to the German half of me. Now, after being here four years and being treated the way I've been treated by so-called 'true' Scots, I've developed a taste for Weiner Schnitzel and can't wait to learn some Duetsch. So, thank you for that, now, I'm off to have some strudel.

[hr]I sing of arms, and the man...

[Smith]

I have english parents, have lived in Scotland since I was 3, and have a Welsh name due to my Welsh grandfather.

So what nationality am I?



Plus I've always thought that the stereotypical Scottish hating English and monarchy stance is getting a bit old nowadays. I also think that most Scottish patriotical songs are a load of cack.

And when England play Scotland, may the best man win, but I usually support England because they are in general better at everything.

edit: And it's Union Flag, not Union Jack.

[exnihilo]

You think it's bad being an American of Scottish extraction LonelyPilgrim? Try being a Scot of Scottish extraction (for as far back as records go) and being regarded by nationalists as being "English at heart" for being a monarchist and proud to be British as well as Scottish.

Of course, having spent one's entire adult life studying Scottish/British history obviously leaves one in no position to argue with nationalistic fervour. I agree with (sorry, forgot who posted it) whoever said, some people need to go away and learn a little about the history of the country before banging on about it. It is not all shortbread, tartan and haggis.

A good recent example is the SNP moving to have a statue of Wellington replaced by one of Burns. Why? Because there were no Scottish PMs or Scottish generals? I can assure you there were several of both. Because there are no great Scottish historical figures? Again, dozens. The real reason is that Burns is about the only one most nationalists can name, other than Wallace, because they are blindingly, sickeningly ignorant.

But, then, ignorance and nationalism are, historically, not strangers to one another.

[exnihilo]

[s]Smith wrote on 15:10, 8th Mar 2005:
And when England play Scotland, may the best man win, but I usually support England because they are in general better at everything.

Tut. That's poor reasoning, you should support the one you're most fond of, not the one you think is most likely to win. That thinking is for gambling, support is from the heart.

edit: And it's Union [i]Flag, not Union Jack.
[/i]
Unless, of course, it's on a jackstaff.

[LonelyPilgrim]

While on the topic of jacks/flags, I'd just like to say that what most people thing is the Confederate Flag is not. It's the Confederate Naval Jack. The flag of the CSA looked quite different.

Isn't knowing history fun? It makes you immediately unpopular with everone who has foolish notions...

[hr]I sing of arms, and the man...

[exnihilo]

Thank you! I've had this argument with American friends who refused to believe me. Whereas, I knew I was right from having studied the civil War in some depth. Glad to see it confirmed, and to see my experience of banging my head against a wall of wilful ignorance is not an unique one.