No Turkey in Europe

[blairtummock]

Turkey is not a European country; it never was and never will be, so why even entertain them with notions of entry into the EU? It is an Asian country with Asian religion (Muslim), Asian ethnicity and Asian ways. It is only by some historical accident that they have any land in Europe at all – it would have been better for them and us if during the Balkan wars that the Bulgarians and Greeks pushed them back into Anatolia and Constantinople became the capital of Greece. So we should NEVER let these peasants into our union.

[amac]

Yeeeeeeeesss.

[MadDog20/20]

[s]amac wrote on 10:15, 17th Dec 2004:
Yeeeeeeeesss.


Actually I agree. Although I don't know if they are 'peasants' any more than the Irish are.

[hr]
She's in a wheelchair,
But I don't care,
Cause she's a babe

[Clonion]

Oh no.... This is too damn tempting when I've got an essay to write... On Turkey joining the EU... and me being Irish...

*backs away slowly*

Edited to point out that I'm Irish, not Turkey as it rea the first time.

[hr]"If I want to quantify anything, I measure it against Clones. There is nothing you will ever encounter in life you haven't seen in some form in Clones"
Neil Jordan

[amac]

Maybe, but saying it would be better if they didn't exist (or were smaller), and then calling them peasants doesn't help the overall viewpoint.

I don't think they should be allowed entry right now because of various reasons, most importantly their human rights record. However I don't see why it wouldn't be possible and beneficial in the future. For a start a muslim country in the EU would significantly increase its power and reach. It's stupid to disount this idea simply because they aren't in traditional 'Europe'. They are in the Eurovision song contest!!

[Chester the Snowcat]

So are Russia and Israel!

When I saw this post, I thought "We'll have to cancel Christmas, aaaargh!"- thanks for giving me a heart attack!

[Senethro]

Europe is an arbitrary line drawn in the sand.

I like how you generalise all of asia.

I like how you cite religion as being a major cause of why they should be allowed in.

Have you forgotten that catholics protestants jews and the orthodox have been murding and slaughtering each other for hundreds of years?

Why did we permit germany to rejoin "civilised" europe?

Turkey should not be in Europe currently. It should be in negotiation to join our European club. Not on the basis of possessing land in Europe, but on the basis of economic and diplomatic benefits for all member states and citizens. Already turkey has removed laws oppressing kurds and other minorities. They're improving and should not be driven away.


The spread of western style liberal government through the offering of economic prosperity. Now theres a masterplan.

[Preacher's Kid]

I get the sinking feeling that the original post was a joke

[harmless loony]

Oh and by the way, Turkey is actually a secular country that bans the wearing of hijab in public places - a bit like France, except it's had that rule for a lot longer.

To argue that a country should not be admitted on the basis of religion is an absolute joke.

Every country in the Union has committed human rights abuses - the difference being that they do it on someone else's land rather then their own (Iraq and Abu Ghraib anyone?)

The current members of the EU are not as squeaky clean as you're attempting to portray them so take off your rose tinted glasses and come up with a better argument.

[Rex Mundi]

Why can't Turkey join the EU? It'd do them alot of good and we could help shape the first true Muslim democracy in the world, proving that it is not religion but circumstance that has made so many muslim countries such failed states. We can use their desperation to join as leverage for complete change.

And whats all this rubbish about culture and religion got to do with the EU. It's supposed to be an economic union, isn't it? Unless people are suggesting it should be a Christian/Western only club? Or worse yet unless people are admitting that what we're all after is a Super state and that turkey doesn't fit that neat little picture?

I can't stand the EU but it'd be hypocrisy in the extreme if turkey wasn't allowed a bite of the cake.

[Rex Mundi]

Why can't Turkey join the EU? It'd do them alot of good and we could help shape the first true Muslim democracy in the world, proving that it is not religion but circumstance that has made so many muslim countries such failed states. We can use their desperation to join as leverage for complete change.

And whats all this rubbish about culture and religion got to do with the EU. It's supposed to be an economic union, isn't it? Unless people are suggesting it should be a Christian/Western only club? Or worse yet people are admitting that whole thing is about creating a Super state and that turkey doesn't fit that neat little picture?

I can't stand the EU but it'd be hypocrisy in the extreme if turkey wasn't allowed a bite of the cake.

(P.S. fucking forum software. isn't it time to upgrade to something made in the 21st century?)

[flarewearer]

Right I don't know where to start disagreeing with you, so I shall go through point by point

[s]blairtummock wrote on 10:08, 17th Dec 2004:
Turkey is not a European country; it never was and never will be, so why even entertain them with notions of entry into the EU?

Turkey is the gateway between Europe and Asia, and for that precise reason we should get them on side. It is one of the only secular, democratic Muslim states there is, and as such is a perfect candidate for enlarging and expanding the EU, for the better of ALL.

It is an Asian country with Asian religion (Muslim), Asian ethnicity and Asian ways.

Firstly, Muslim isnt a religion, Islam is a religion. Since when was Islam an "Asian" religion? There are Islamic countries or countries with Islamic majorities in europe (Albania, Bosnia Hertz., Macedonia), do you object to Muslims of European ethnicity? Also, you will find Muslim countries in Africa, Islam is a worldwide religion. Not all turkish peoples are of Asian extraction either, many are of eastern european descent. And what precisely are "Asian ways?" Do you suggest that entry into the EU is for Christian countries only?

It is only by some historical accident that they have any land in Europe at all – it would have been better for them and us if during the Balkan wars that the Bulgarians and Greeks pushed them back into Anatolia and Constantinople became the capital of Greece. So we should NEVER let these peasants into our union.


It is only by some "historical accident" that Spain is not a Muslim country.

And stop with the "them" and "us" shit, Turks may have different ethnicity and religion to most Europeans, but they are still people like us. I do not see Christians as different to myself, just because I am an atheist, any more than I see Muslims or Hindus as different to myself. I do not see Icelandic people as different to myself just because they are of Nordic descent and I am of Anglo-Saxon / Celtic descent.

What is it you are scared of? Why does Islam scare you? Why is Turkey joining the EU any different to Lithuania or Estonia joining? If you are going to make such bold statements at least get your facts right and have a more constructive argument than "ewwwwwwwww, brown people!"

[Ian McFarlane]

Yes, eminently sensible. I suspect that France and Germany fear an undermining of their numerical superiority in the Parliament, caused by Turkey's huge population. If Turkey's introduction was to shift this balance of representation to the east, I'd be supportive. Opposition on the basis of ethnicity or religion is perhaps a smokescreen, though culturally understandable. Personally however, I think that the fact that Turkey is Islamic should, if anything, be an incentive. Obviously there are numerous other important issues - Cyprus; increased Turkish immigration into Germany; the opening up of E.U. borders with Iraq and Iran - but only by welcoming Turkey can west-east divides be bridged.

[Haunted]

I think Turkey could eventually become an active member of the EU, but not right now.

There is alot of cultural incompatabilities I see within Turkey, such as the islamic honour killings and the extreme oppression of women, especially in the east.

Imagine what the Islamic fundamentalists would do to poorly defended Turkey if it were to join with the evil west?

Although it does share a border with Iraq and Iran, so it would be of tactical use.

[flarewearer]

[s]Haunted wrote on 16:39, 17th Dec 2004:
I think Turkey could eventually become an active member of the EU, but not right now.

yes, they really have to get their human rights in order, but if the prospect of EU membership is the carrot, then so be it.

Imagine what the Islamic fundamentalists would do to poorly defended Turkey if it were to join with the evil west?

Turkey has enormous, well funded and modern armed forces. It is also a full member of NATO, as it was seen as a vital anti-soviet Ally, and a buffer zone between europe and the east.


Although it does share a border with Iraq and Iran, so it would be of tactical use.


Yes, Turkey has no love for its' eastern neighbours, precisely because it is a secular republic rather than an islamist dictatorship. Precisely for this reason we should be welcoming it into the fold, it would be disastrous if one of the only eastern countries we could do business with (rather than just exploit eachother, such as our relationship with the Arab oil states) was allowed to disintegrate.

[hr]
...Now you have drunk all your beer, go drown your empty selves...

[Zombie Sheep]

Maybe we could insist that they all become christian?

[hr]Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability. And I want you to know we are with you until victory, until Jerusalem.

[harmless loony]

For the record....

there's no such thing as an Islamic honour killing - Killing is forbidden in Islam and there's no honour in murder.

It's a cultural thing not a religious thing so please don't confuse the two.

Thanks

[joug]

And that culture sadly already exists throughout the EU, as witnessed this summer when the Eu set up a task force to investigate 'honour killings' in Europe. The UK has also seen a rise in these type of murders.

cf http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3828675.stm

[Bread Roll]

Isn't the whole Cyprus thing a bit of an issue currently. Also the ever reliable BBC news site says that the EU says that (phew) it could take up to 15 years before Turkey would be allowed to join anyway.

p.s. I also had severe palpitations regarding the fate of Christmas when I saw the name of this thread, Mr Snowcat.


[hr]
Ted "Theodore" Logan: Who are you?
Bill S. Preston, Esq.: Ted, it's the Grim Reaper, dude.
Ted "Theodore" Logan: Oh. How's it hanging, Death?

[David Bean]

I'd like to see Turkey in the EU, if only to blow the CAP to smithereens!

[hr]"Fiat justicia ruat coelum (let justice be done though the heavens may fall)" - Judge James Horton (family motto)