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Christian Voice Rides Again (more Christian Bashing)
Re:
by novium on Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:58 pm
[s][b]Manic23 wrote on 23:40, 30th Jan Oh, and I'm a practising Catholic by the way. Am I going to burn in the firey lake?
didn't you see the website of mr. chick? Of course you are, because of the Death Cookie.
me too, btw
didn't you see the website of mr. chick? Of course you are, because of the Death Cookie.
me too, btw
Neither the storms of crisis, nor the breezes of ambition could ever divert him, either by hope or by fear, from the course that he had chosen
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novium
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Re:
by Manic23 on Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:25 pm
I once read an article on what is the 'right' religion to choose, and it used the example of an apple (stay with me here). An Apple has many different words and meanings in languages around the world (pomme, mananza, mela etc)but when all is said and done, it's still an apple. The argument applied this to God, its conclusion being that God is universal but the different names and forms he undertakes are the result of mans own personal interpretation in differnt walks of life. How much you take from this is up to yourself.
Then again, is God a Granny Smith, or a Golden Delicious? Personally I hope he's a pink Lady, can't beat all that juiciness with a big stick
Then again, is God a Granny Smith, or a Golden Delicious? Personally I hope he's a pink Lady, can't beat all that juiciness with a big stick
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Manic23
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Re:
by exnihilo on Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:47 pm
[s]Paul wrote on 19:14, 29th Jan 2005:
So how can you believe that, if the Messiah did not come when predicted, Judaism is still a valid faith?
How insufferably arrogant ARE you? How dare you make a statement like that and expect people to have any respect for your opinions or any interest whatsoever in your diseased arguments? How can you earnestly believe that you are in a position to make that judgement on the profoundly held beliefs of millions of people?
So how can you believe that, if the Messiah did not come when predicted, Judaism is still a valid faith?
How insufferably arrogant ARE you? How dare you make a statement like that and expect people to have any respect for your opinions or any interest whatsoever in your diseased arguments? How can you earnestly believe that you are in a position to make that judgement on the profoundly held beliefs of millions of people?
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exnihilo
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Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:59 pm
[s]exnihilo wrote on 21:47, 31st Jan 2005:
[s]Paul wrote on 19:14, 29th Jan 2005:[i]
So how can you believe that, if the Messiah did not come when predicted, Judaism is still a valid faith?
How insufferably arrogant ARE you? How dare you make a statement like that and expect people to have any respect for your opinions or any interest whatsoever in your diseased arguments? How can you earnestly believe that you are in a position to make that judgement on the profoundly held beliefs of millions of people?
[/i]
Now that's really interesting!
How is it that you have not been making the same comment about all those Christian-bashers!
At least I have made a valid argument - from the Talmud and Tanakh - that the Messiah - Son of David - was to come at a specific time. And according to the Jews, he did not then come.
You have only responded to that argument by attacking me personally. You certainly have neither addressed nor demolished the argument.
[s]Paul wrote on 19:14, 29th Jan 2005:[i]
So how can you believe that, if the Messiah did not come when predicted, Judaism is still a valid faith?
How insufferably arrogant ARE you? How dare you make a statement like that and expect people to have any respect for your opinions or any interest whatsoever in your diseased arguments? How can you earnestly believe that you are in a position to make that judgement on the profoundly held beliefs of millions of people?
[/i]
Now that's really interesting!
How is it that you have not been making the same comment about all those Christian-bashers!
At least I have made a valid argument - from the Talmud and Tanakh - that the Messiah - Son of David - was to come at a specific time. And according to the Jews, he did not then come.
You have only responded to that argument by attacking me personally. You certainly have neither addressed nor demolished the argument.
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
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Paul
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Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:07 pm
[s]Paul wrote on 21:59, 31st Jan 2005:
[s]exnihilo wrote on 21:47, 31st Jan 2005:[i]
[s]Paul wrote on 19:14, 29th Jan 2005:[i]
So how can you believe that, if the Messiah did not come when predicted, Judaism is still a valid faith?
How insufferably arrogant ARE you? How dare you make a statement like that and expect people to have any respect for your opinions or any interest whatsoever in your diseased arguments? How can you earnestly believe that you are in a position to make that judgement on the profoundly held beliefs of millions of people?
[/i]
Now that's really interesting!
How is it that you have not been making the same comment about all those Christian-bashers!
At least I have made a valid argument - from the Talmud and Tanakh - that the Messiah - Son of David - was to come at a specific time. And according to the Jews, he did not then come.
You have only responded to that argument by attacking me personally. You certainly have neither addressed nor demolished the argument.
[/i]
[s]exnihilo wrote on 21:47, 31st Jan 2005:[i]
[s]Paul wrote on 19:14, 29th Jan 2005:[i]
So how can you believe that, if the Messiah did not come when predicted, Judaism is still a valid faith?
How insufferably arrogant ARE you? How dare you make a statement like that and expect people to have any respect for your opinions or any interest whatsoever in your diseased arguments? How can you earnestly believe that you are in a position to make that judgement on the profoundly held beliefs of millions of people?
[/i]
Now that's really interesting!
How is it that you have not been making the same comment about all those Christian-bashers!
At least I have made a valid argument - from the Talmud and Tanakh - that the Messiah - Son of David - was to come at a specific time. And according to the Jews, he did not then come.
You have only responded to that argument by attacking me personally. You certainly have neither addressed nor demolished the argument.
[/i]
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
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Paul
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Re:
by exnihilo on Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:08 pm
Personal comments? You mean calling you arrogant? You think on the basis of your posts on here there would be a lot of people who would disagree? Perhaps I haven't said the same to anyone else because they aren't such insufferably self-righteous preachers as you appear to be?
That aside, you want me, now, to rehash for you all the reasons and the arguments why Jews do not accept Jesus as actually having been the Messiah? I'll do it if you really want (with full support of Holy Writ too) , but you make the request as though for the last two thousand years we hadn't really thought about it - which is to make a mockery of the thoughts and writings of hundreds of men whose theological scholarship would make you look like a child on his first day at yeshiva.
Your 'arguments' from the Tanakh and the Talmud to attack Judaism are about as relevant as any argument that I might make from the New Testament to attack the notion that Jesus was God - to use an old saw, the Devil can quote scripture to his own end. I could make those arguments, and I could pile on the biblical quotations, but what would be the point?
Your mind is already made up, Christ is the be all and end all to you, fine, believe what you choose. I shall believe what I choose. But if there is one thing you appear to have missed from Christ's message it is tolerance for others. You think arrogant was bad? The arguments you make have condemned all but a few hundred thousand born-again lunatics to the flames of hell. How charitable, how forgiving, how very fucked up.
I've been civil throughout this thread, but your brand of smug, intolerant moralising is, quite frankly, utterly disgusting.
That aside, you want me, now, to rehash for you all the reasons and the arguments why Jews do not accept Jesus as actually having been the Messiah? I'll do it if you really want (with full support of Holy Writ too) , but you make the request as though for the last two thousand years we hadn't really thought about it - which is to make a mockery of the thoughts and writings of hundreds of men whose theological scholarship would make you look like a child on his first day at yeshiva.
Your 'arguments' from the Tanakh and the Talmud to attack Judaism are about as relevant as any argument that I might make from the New Testament to attack the notion that Jesus was God - to use an old saw, the Devil can quote scripture to his own end. I could make those arguments, and I could pile on the biblical quotations, but what would be the point?
Your mind is already made up, Christ is the be all and end all to you, fine, believe what you choose. I shall believe what I choose. But if there is one thing you appear to have missed from Christ's message it is tolerance for others. You think arrogant was bad? The arguments you make have condemned all but a few hundred thousand born-again lunatics to the flames of hell. How charitable, how forgiving, how very fucked up.
I've been civil throughout this thread, but your brand of smug, intolerant moralising is, quite frankly, utterly disgusting.
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exnihilo
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Re:
by exnihilo on Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:15 pm
Quickly off the top of my head, though, one good reason why Christ is not Moshiach can be found in Isaiah 2:4.
As I say, I'll play this game if you want to, but if you have no respect for me, expect none in return.
As I say, I'll play this game if you want to, but if you have no respect for me, expect none in return.
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exnihilo
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Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:19 pm
[s]exnihilo wrote on 22:08, 31st Jan 2005:
That aside, you want me, now, to rehash for you all the reasons and the arguments why Jews do not accept Jesus as actually having been the Messiah?
No - Just why he did not appear when he was supposed to.
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
That aside, you want me, now, to rehash for you all the reasons and the arguments why Jews do not accept Jesus as actually having been the Messiah?
No - Just why he did not appear when he was supposed to.
[hr]
"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:23-24
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
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Paul
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Re:
by exnihilo on Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:24 pm
Because you have misrepresented the following two things:
1) What Jews actually believe about Moshiach.
2) What the prophesies say.
I cannot answer your question as it is flawed from the start. I can tell you what Jews believe, but I imagine you don't want to hear that because it will differ very greatly from what you believe and will, therefore, be wrong.
1) What Jews actually believe about Moshiach.
2) What the prophesies say.
I cannot answer your question as it is flawed from the start. I can tell you what Jews believe, but I imagine you don't want to hear that because it will differ very greatly from what you believe and will, therefore, be wrong.
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exnihilo
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Re:
by Paul on Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:32 pm
[s]exnihilo wrote on 22:24, 31st Jan 2005:
Because you have misrepresented the following two things:
1) What Jews actually believe about Moshiach.
2) What the prophesies say.
Please clarify how I have misrepresented these two things.
Because you have misrepresented the following two things:
1) What Jews actually believe about Moshiach.
2) What the prophesies say.
Please clarify how I have misrepresented these two things.
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
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Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by exnihilo on Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:16 pm
The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".
1. He must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
3. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
4. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
6. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
7. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
8. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Jesus the Nazarene, who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed, is alluded to in the book of Daniel, as it is said, `And the sons of the transgressors among thy people will rise, in order to establish a vision, and will stumble' (Daniel 11:14). Can there be a greater stumbling then this? All the prophets said that messiah will be a redeemer and a savior to the Israelites, will bring together their outcasts, and will strengthen their obedience to the Divine precepts, but Jesus caused destruction by the sword to Israel, the dispersion of those left, and their humiliation. He changed the law, and misled many people to worship a being beside God.
The computation based on Daniel 9:25-26 is flawed and should not be started in 444 BCE. Isaiah 45:13 and 44:28 refer to the Persian King Cyrus, the mistranslation from Hebrew added a definte article where one did not exist, so, not "The Prince Messiah" but rather an annointed one, a Prince - Cyrus who ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem in c.573 BCE a more convincing start date for the count.
There is no "prophetic year" of 360 days alluded to anywhere in the Bible. It is a nineteenth century Christian invention developed through imaginative use of the Genesis flood narrative. The usual Christian translation ignores the 'atnach and thus conflates the two annointed ones into one. But two there are, and the second of which can as easily, and more convincingly, be interpreted as being Alexander Yannai, last of the Hasmodeans.
Even if we were to count 483 years from 444 B.C.E. we get to the year 38 C.E. Jesus is crucified in the period ranging from 30 to 33 C.E. But, the text of Daniel 9:26 says, "And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off." This shows that if we use 444 B.C.E. as a starting date the second "anointed one" was "cut off" in the period following the year 38 C.E. (that is, "after the sixty-two weeks"). There would be no connection to anyone "cut off" prior to that year. Thus, there is no reference here to Jesus.
1. He must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
3. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
4. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
6. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
7. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
8. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Jesus the Nazarene, who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed, is alluded to in the book of Daniel, as it is said, `And the sons of the transgressors among thy people will rise, in order to establish a vision, and will stumble' (Daniel 11:14). Can there be a greater stumbling then this? All the prophets said that messiah will be a redeemer and a savior to the Israelites, will bring together their outcasts, and will strengthen their obedience to the Divine precepts, but Jesus caused destruction by the sword to Israel, the dispersion of those left, and their humiliation. He changed the law, and misled many people to worship a being beside God.
The computation based on Daniel 9:25-26 is flawed and should not be started in 444 BCE. Isaiah 45:13 and 44:28 refer to the Persian King Cyrus, the mistranslation from Hebrew added a definte article where one did not exist, so, not "The Prince Messiah" but rather an annointed one, a Prince - Cyrus who ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem in c.573 BCE a more convincing start date for the count.
There is no "prophetic year" of 360 days alluded to anywhere in the Bible. It is a nineteenth century Christian invention developed through imaginative use of the Genesis flood narrative. The usual Christian translation ignores the 'atnach and thus conflates the two annointed ones into one. But two there are, and the second of which can as easily, and more convincingly, be interpreted as being Alexander Yannai, last of the Hasmodeans.
Even if we were to count 483 years from 444 B.C.E. we get to the year 38 C.E. Jesus is crucified in the period ranging from 30 to 33 C.E. But, the text of Daniel 9:26 says, "And after the sixty-two weeks an anointed one shall be cut off." This shows that if we use 444 B.C.E. as a starting date the second "anointed one" was "cut off" in the period following the year 38 C.E. (that is, "after the sixty-two weeks"). There would be no connection to anyone "cut off" prior to that year. Thus, there is no reference here to Jesus.
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exnihilo
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Re:
by Livia on Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:59 pm
You may consider that the time has come for us to be dragged kicking and screaming into your murky version of truth based on scripture, but in an age when people like reaching their own conclusions and the threat of burning at the stake for being a heresiarch is removed, the "truths" of forty generations ago don't always hold water.
Allow me to simplify thus - I believe in a supreme being, let's call it God just to follow convention.
I didn't reach this conclusion after much late night searching of scripture or indoctrination at the hands of friends, but through reflection on the order of the Universe around me.
Your evangelical efforts are based both on the responsibility scripture gives you to "spread the good news" and presumably some feeling of satisfaction you derive from saving errant souls, as I imagine you perceive it.
The evidence you have for the Christian belief that God became man in Christ comes (aside from a bit of jiggery pokery from Constantine at the Council of Nicea to make sure the agreed version of Christ's life met the requisite prophecies...) from New Testament scripture whose truth I do not accept.
Therefore, speaking only for myself, you can't convince me of the truth of a piece of writing because it proclaims itself to be true, it's beyond circular and verging scarily close to the frankly irrational.
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe." - Saint Augustine. A lovely quotation, don't you think, but like all things the principle can be taken too far.
Allow me to simplify thus - I believe in a supreme being, let's call it God just to follow convention.
I didn't reach this conclusion after much late night searching of scripture or indoctrination at the hands of friends, but through reflection on the order of the Universe around me.
Your evangelical efforts are based both on the responsibility scripture gives you to "spread the good news" and presumably some feeling of satisfaction you derive from saving errant souls, as I imagine you perceive it.
The evidence you have for the Christian belief that God became man in Christ comes (aside from a bit of jiggery pokery from Constantine at the Council of Nicea to make sure the agreed version of Christ's life met the requisite prophecies...) from New Testament scripture whose truth I do not accept.
Therefore, speaking only for myself, you can't convince me of the truth of a piece of writing because it proclaims itself to be true, it's beyond circular and verging scarily close to the frankly irrational.
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe." - Saint Augustine. A lovely quotation, don't you think, but like all things the principle can be taken too far.
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Livia
Re:
by Paul on Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:01 pm
[s]exnihilo wrote on 14:16, 1st Feb 2005:
1. He must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) - Agreed – Fulfilled by Jesus
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) - Agreed – Fulfilled by Jesus How could anyone prove this today? The genealogical records have been destroyed!
3. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) Agreed – Fulfilled by Jesus How could anyone prove this today? The genealogical records have been destroyed!
4. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
The context here is a second return of the remnant of his people after dispersion. Further, the Gentiles shall seek him. This is something which is happening in the present day. But notice when the Messiah comes on this occasion, he comes in judgment and he will slay the wicked. After this peace shall reign on the earth.
“1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.” – Isaiah 11:1-16
This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27) - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
6. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3) ] - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
However, I have a comment. If the Rabbis 2,000 years ago expected the Messiah to bring peace, then why did they declare BarKochba to be the Messiah?
7. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24) ] - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
8. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23) ] - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: – Agreed
If an individual fails to fulfilleven one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
As I said before, why then did the Rabbis declare BarKochba to be the Messiah. He certainly did not fulfil all the conditions!
Jesus the Nazarene, who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed, is alluded to in the book of Daniel, as it is said, `And the sons of the transgressors among thy people will rise, in order to establish a vision, and will stumble' (Daniel 11:14). Can there be a greater stumbling then this? – Disagree
You have only quoted one half of the verse. The context of the passage is a conflict between the ‘king of the south’ and the ‘king of the north’. These refer to two kingdoms that emerge after Alexander the Great from his conquests. The battle between continues for an extended period. At the time you are quoting from, the king of Egypt, Ptolemy Epiphanes, was attacked by an alliance of Antiochus king of Syria, and Philip king of Macedon, to seize his kingdom. Then in verse 17 “and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.” – we have a reference to Cleopatra. Subsequently we move on to the Roman Empire and the time of Jesus. You understanding of this prophecy is way off!
All the prophets said that messiah will be a redeemer and a saviour to the Israelites, will bring together their outcasts, and will strengthen their obedience to the Divine precepts, – Agreed And he is Redeemer and Saviour to Jew and Gentile alike who accept him by faith.
… but Jesus caused destruction by the sword to Israel, the dispersion of those left, and their humiliation. – Agreed. This is what Jesus promised would come upon the unbelieving Jews, because they “because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.” – Luke 19:44. Further, this is what they asked for:
“When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.” – Matthew 27:24-26
He changed the law, – I dealt with this already in the post looking at God’s dealing with sin and the “Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world”.
… and misled many people to worship a being beside God. – Disagree. Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is part of the Triune God. Even the Targums bear witness to and treat the Word of God as God – yet separate from him. As the Word of God, Jesus Christ participated in Creation, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
“In the beginning God [Elohim – a plural noun] created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” – Genesis 1:1-3
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. … And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ” – John 1:1-3 & 14
The computation based on Daniel 9:25-26 is flawed and should not be started in 444 BCE. - Disagree
Isaiah 45:13 and 44:28 refer to the Persian King Cyrus, the mistranslation from Hebrew added a definte article where one did not exist, so, not "The Prince Messiah" but rather an annointed one, a Prince - Cyrus who ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem in c.573 BCE a more convincing start date for the count. - Disagree But even if it starts in 573BCE, as you suggest, the Messiah still should have arrived by now.
There is no "prophetic year" of 360 days alluded to anywhere in the Bible. It is a nineteenth century Christian invention developed through imaginative use of the Genesis flood narrative. - Disagree
There is a very clear parallel to Daniel’s prophecy in the book of Revelation. Here, 42 months is equated to 1,260 days (42 months = 3 ½ years = 1260 days of 360 day years.):
“for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.” – Revelation 11:2-3
Further, a calendar year used to be 360 days – from the time of Noah!! It was suddenly changed all over the world in around sometime in the 8th century BCE. Oh, and the 360 day year was known to Bible commentators of the Reformation – before the 19th century.
And the year is going to change again to 360 days. One evidence in the Book of Revelation has been provided. Here is some more:
“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” – Matthew 24:27
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” – Matthew 24:29
One last point - the Messiah is not going to rebuild the Temple. It is standing when he comes!
"and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." - Malachi 3:1
[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7
1. He must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) - Agreed – Fulfilled by Jesus
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10) - Agreed – Fulfilled by Jesus How could anyone prove this today? The genealogical records have been destroyed!
3. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13) Agreed – Fulfilled by Jesus How could anyone prove this today? The genealogical records have been destroyed!
4. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
The context here is a second return of the remnant of his people after dispersion. Further, the Gentiles shall seek him. This is something which is happening in the present day. But notice when the Messiah comes on this occasion, he comes in judgment and he will slay the wicked. After this peace shall reign on the earth.
“1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.” – Isaiah 11:1-16
This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
5. He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27) - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
6. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3) ] - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
However, I have a comment. If the Rabbis 2,000 years ago expected the Messiah to bring peace, then why did they declare BarKochba to be the Messiah?
7. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24) ] - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
8. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23) ] - This will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns.
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28: – Agreed
If an individual fails to fulfilleven one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
As I said before, why then did the Rabbis declare BarKochba to be the Messiah. He certainly did not fulfil all the conditions!
Jesus the Nazarene, who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed, is alluded to in the book of Daniel, as it is said, `And the sons of the transgressors among thy people will rise, in order to establish a vision, and will stumble' (Daniel 11:14). Can there be a greater stumbling then this? – Disagree
You have only quoted one half of the verse. The context of the passage is a conflict between the ‘king of the south’ and the ‘king of the north’. These refer to two kingdoms that emerge after Alexander the Great from his conquests. The battle between continues for an extended period. At the time you are quoting from, the king of Egypt, Ptolemy Epiphanes, was attacked by an alliance of Antiochus king of Syria, and Philip king of Macedon, to seize his kingdom. Then in verse 17 “and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.” – we have a reference to Cleopatra. Subsequently we move on to the Roman Empire and the time of Jesus. You understanding of this prophecy is way off!
All the prophets said that messiah will be a redeemer and a saviour to the Israelites, will bring together their outcasts, and will strengthen their obedience to the Divine precepts, – Agreed And he is Redeemer and Saviour to Jew and Gentile alike who accept him by faith.
… but Jesus caused destruction by the sword to Israel, the dispersion of those left, and their humiliation. – Agreed. This is what Jesus promised would come upon the unbelieving Jews, because they “because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.” – Luke 19:44. Further, this is what they asked for:
“When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.” – Matthew 27:24-26
He changed the law, – I dealt with this already in the post looking at God’s dealing with sin and the “Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world”.
… and misled many people to worship a being beside God. – Disagree. Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is part of the Triune God. Even the Targums bear witness to and treat the Word of God as God – yet separate from him. As the Word of God, Jesus Christ participated in Creation, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
“In the beginning God [Elohim – a plural noun] created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.” – Genesis 1:1-3
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. … And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ” – John 1:1-3 & 14
The computation based on Daniel 9:25-26 is flawed and should not be started in 444 BCE. - Disagree
Isaiah 45:13 and 44:28 refer to the Persian King Cyrus, the mistranslation from Hebrew added a definte article where one did not exist, so, not "The Prince Messiah" but rather an annointed one, a Prince - Cyrus who ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem in c.573 BCE a more convincing start date for the count. - Disagree But even if it starts in 573BCE, as you suggest, the Messiah still should have arrived by now.
There is no "prophetic year" of 360 days alluded to anywhere in the Bible. It is a nineteenth century Christian invention developed through imaginative use of the Genesis flood narrative. - Disagree
There is a very clear parallel to Daniel’s prophecy in the book of Revelation. Here, 42 months is equated to 1,260 days (42 months = 3 ½ years = 1260 days of 360 day years.):
“for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.” – Revelation 11:2-3
Further, a calendar year used to be 360 days – from the time of Noah!! It was suddenly changed all over the world in around sometime in the 8th century BCE. Oh, and the 360 day year was known to Bible commentators of the Reformation – before the 19th century.
And the year is going to change again to 360 days. One evidence in the Book of Revelation has been provided. Here is some more:
“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” – Matthew 24:27
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” – Matthew 24:29
One last point - the Messiah is not going to rebuild the Temple. It is standing when he comes!
"and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." - Malachi 3:1
[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by Paul on Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:20 pm
[s]legohead wrote on 15:01, 26th Jan 2005:
at the risk of another long post from you, Paul, why on earth could you not attend your mother's funeral? just because you don't believe the same things as her, doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to attend a public burial ceremony.
As my mother is a Roman Catholic, it would not simply be a burial ceremony. I would include a Requiem Mass. What is wrong with that? Quite a lot.
First, it is a mass. This includes the changing by the priest of the wafer supposedly into the “body, blood, soul and divinity” of Christ. The Host is then to be adored as such. Now if the Host is not Christ, then this adoration is idolatry. And how can the Host be Christ? We are told in the Bible that he is currently seated on the right hand of the Father, and that when he appears, it will be as the lightning shines from the east to the west:
“by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;” - I Peter 3:21b-22a
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” – Hebrews 10:12
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” – Matthew 24:23-27
Second, by saying that the mass is a one with the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, Rome is saying that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was not sufficient – and this is blasphemous.
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” – Hebrews 10:12
“For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” – Hebrews 9:24-28
Third, a Requiem Mass is said for the souls of those in Purgatory. But such is an affront to the efficacy of the blood of Jesus Christ – which cleanses form all sin.
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” – I John 1:7
Fourth, Jesus Christ gave a clear command to his disciples in such instances:
“And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.” - Luke 9:59-60
[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7
at the risk of another long post from you, Paul, why on earth could you not attend your mother's funeral? just because you don't believe the same things as her, doesn't mean that you aren't allowed to attend a public burial ceremony.
As my mother is a Roman Catholic, it would not simply be a burial ceremony. I would include a Requiem Mass. What is wrong with that? Quite a lot.
First, it is a mass. This includes the changing by the priest of the wafer supposedly into the “body, blood, soul and divinity” of Christ. The Host is then to be adored as such. Now if the Host is not Christ, then this adoration is idolatry. And how can the Host be Christ? We are told in the Bible that he is currently seated on the right hand of the Father, and that when he appears, it will be as the lightning shines from the east to the west:
“by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;” - I Peter 3:21b-22a
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” – Hebrews 10:12
“Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” – Matthew 24:23-27
Second, by saying that the mass is a one with the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, Rome is saying that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was not sufficient – and this is blasphemous.
“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” – Hebrews 10:12
“For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” – Hebrews 9:24-28
Third, a Requiem Mass is said for the souls of those in Purgatory. But such is an affront to the efficacy of the blood of Jesus Christ – which cleanses form all sin.
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” – I John 1:7
Fourth, Jesus Christ gave a clear command to his disciples in such instances:
“And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.” - Luke 9:59-60
[hr]
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." - Proverbs 3:5-7
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - I John 5:20
-
Paul
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by legohead on Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:12 pm
well, I really don't know how to answer that one.
my religious beliefs must be a pile of toss then. hey ho. at least I have been shown the way now. come brothers, sisters, let us rejoice and join brother paul in worshiping THE ONE TRUE FAITH.
its not as if the Bible has more than one interpretation, is it? faith, I have come to realise, is the unshaken belief in a literal understanding of passages written translated and retranslated from texts written by a multitude of human beings.
and here's me thinking that faith, when it boils down to it, is the social, personal bond between an inner spirituality and a force that unifies existence, is perfect, and unknowable and that transcends the dogma of any one religion, that manifests itself in decent, human goodness to be found in Hindu, Jew, Atheist, Christian...
now I see that only you, Paul, have the true path to salvation .what an idoletrous fool I've been. halleluja, can I hear a HALLELUJA from anyone?
my religious beliefs must be a pile of toss then. hey ho. at least I have been shown the way now. come brothers, sisters, let us rejoice and join brother paul in worshiping THE ONE TRUE FAITH.
its not as if the Bible has more than one interpretation, is it? faith, I have come to realise, is the unshaken belief in a literal understanding of passages written translated and retranslated from texts written by a multitude of human beings.
and here's me thinking that faith, when it boils down to it, is the social, personal bond between an inner spirituality and a force that unifies existence, is perfect, and unknowable and that transcends the dogma of any one religion, that manifests itself in decent, human goodness to be found in Hindu, Jew, Atheist, Christian...
now I see that only you, Paul, have the true path to salvation .what an idoletrous fool I've been. halleluja, can I hear a HALLELUJA from anyone?
This is for all those headless acrobats
faces crushed in the circus dust
all in the name of gravity
and the price of admission
faces crushed in the circus dust
all in the name of gravity
and the price of admission
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legohead
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:41 am
Re:
by Odysseus on Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:43 pm
Paul, do you ever consider that your inane bullshit makes you seem like a bit of a fundamentalist retard.
Or do you still wet the bed?
Cest La' Vie
If God created Man to be Free, why must we surrender ourselves to Christ?
Let people believe what they want, so long as they don't try cramming it down other peoples throats is the best solution.
Or do you still wet the bed?
Cest La' Vie
If God created Man to be Free, why must we surrender ourselves to Christ?
Let people believe what they want, so long as they don't try cramming it down other peoples throats is the best solution.
Walk into the bright lights of sorrow, oh drink a bit of wine and we both might go tommorow, my love...
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Odysseus
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 7:14 am
Re:
by exnihilo on Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:35 pm
Naturally, Paul, I concede. Your Damascene conversion has obviously imbued you with omniscience what could I, or anyone else, generations of extremely learned Rabbis for example, know about anything?
You ignore most of the points I made with "disagree" and you disputed the others by simply saying my interpretation was wrong. You're not worth the time and effort of arguing with.
Yasher ko'ach.
You ignore most of the points I made with "disagree" and you disputed the others by simply saying my interpretation was wrong. You're not worth the time and effort of arguing with.
Yasher ko'ach.
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exnihilo
- Posts: 4999
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Re:
by oddly familiar on Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:44 pm
[s]exnihilo wrote on 19:35, 3rd Feb 2005:
Yasher ko'ach.
I gotta ask... what does that mean? Is it some delightful insult?
[hr]
And the last one out of the circus has to lock up everything,
Or the elephants will get out and forget you.
Yasher ko'ach.
I gotta ask... what does that mean? Is it some delightful insult?
[hr]
And the last one out of the circus has to lock up everything,
Or the elephants will get out and forget you.
saru mo ki kara ochiru
-
oddly familiar
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:08 pm
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